Reply
 
Thread Tools Search this Thread Display Modes
 
Old 12-22-2020, 01:11 PM   #61
Guru
 
Marco Flamingo's Avatar
 
City: Dewatto
Vessel Name: CHiTON
Vessel Model: Tung Hwa Clipper 30
Join Date: Jan 2020
Posts: 786
Nobody is saying that electricity isn't also dangerous. I've been working my way through the Pacific Yacht Specialty videos on YouTube. Good stuff and lots of "shocking" lessons. I've been re-doing a lot of my old electrical. I've gotten a shock once (unmarked 120V AC terminal touched with a socket wrench) and made more than a few 12V sparks. But sparks can't result in a propane explosion if there is no propane onboard. I think of getting propane off as just another layer of safety. Some see an electric stove as inconvenient, like wearing a block foam PFD. But the new induction stoves, like the new PFDs, have addressed many of the old complaints.

My present propane stove doesn't have thermocouples on the burners. They are available ($35 ea), but I haven't found info on retrofitting them. It would be nice to upgrade 1820's gas stove technology to include this safety feature (and probably required by the ABYC). A new stove/oven that has thermocouples is $1,000 to $1,500. Thankfully, there are other choices.

My common routine is to start dinner before anchoring for the evening if it will involve a long cooking time (e.g. a pot roast in the pressure cooker is 45 minutes). That means basically zero battery usage for cooking once anchored. Mornings are usually espresso (3-4 minutes and negligible amps). Sometimes two cups. I don't usually cook for breakfast in the morning. So for me, a little house battery and a solar panel is sufficient.

Propane requires me to try to adjust the flame down low enough (almost impossible) and making sure that the window by the stove isn't open enough to blow out the flame. I need something open for fresh air and to try to limit condensation. Propane is a crude system, and I've had them all. My first boat had a wood cook stove (which I preferred to propane). Where I cruise, scrap wood was more readily available than propane. I haven't looked lately.

Making the decision as to which stove/oven obviously depends on where and how you boat. If I used the oven twice a day every time I was aboard, that feature becomes really important. If I bake three times a year, I would forego the oven and come up with a work around. Same with having three burners. Personally, although cooking on board is one of my favorite activities, I've never needed three at once. Your mileage will undoubtedly vary.
__________________
Marco Flamingo
Marco Flamingo is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 01:12 PM   #62
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ess View Post
Another bogus comparison. The one we are talking about is gas stoves compared to electric induction ones. Has that heavier than air gas ever leaked to the bottom of a boat and blew it up? Yes. An electric one? Ive never heard of such. In fact, do boat insurers consider whether there is gas on board?
Bogus comparison yourself.
Very few boats have electric stoves as they are only a recent thing.

Far more have gas or metho.
Simi 60 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 01:38 PM   #63
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,990
I always love these gas-is-dangerous conversations. Risk is customarily calculated across impact if it happens vs probability that it might. Clearly, impact if a gas explosion occurs is extreme. But what about probability? Extremely low. Now what? What do you do about evaluating a high-impact but low-probability event?

Example: Suppose it was 10x more likely that you would die of a meteorite strike if you live between certain latitudes. Sounds ominous - better move, right? But if that 10x more likely equated to 1 in one-trillion vs one in ten-trillion? It's ten times more likely, but probability is still infinitesimal.

Of all the risks to worry about, having a propane stove blow-up is a long way down the list. Right after whether orange Crocs make my thighs look fat (note - I neither own nor wear Crocs of any color)?

I don't like electric boats because I don't like being forced to run a generator, especially 0400 when I want a cup of coffee. You want to talk about risk? Try waking-up my dearly beloved Cheryll at 4AM - risk-impact and probability of bodily harm are significant.

For me, a properly setup and sized solar system works well for small appliances. For bulk-cooking, gas stove/oven is the right answer for me. To each their own.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 01:44 PM   #64
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 5,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Bogus comparison yourself.
Very few boats have electric stoves as they are only a recent thing.

Far more have gas or metho.

I wouldn't say they're all that recent. My boat was built with an electric (coil top, not induction) stove in 1986. I'm pretty sure the builder figured "well, it already has a generator and we can't find a good spot for a propane locker, so just put an electric stove in".
rslifkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 01:48 PM   #65
Guru
 
City: Port Canaveral
Join Date: Jun 2012
Posts: 2,627
Quote:
Originally Posted by Marco Flamingo View Post
Some see an electric stove as inconvenient, like wearing a block foam PFD. But the new induction stoves, like the new PFDs, have addressed many of the old complaints.

Ah, what memories! I used to have nothing but those WW2 PFDs which were loaded with blocks of cork. Horrible things, they were.
Mako is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 02:13 PM   #66
Scraping Paint
 
City: Niagara Falls
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
Bogus comparison yourself.
Very few boats have electric stoves as they are only a recent thing.

Far more have gas or metho.
It was the comparison, gas vs electric.....in boats........the latter is safer. Anybody can have a safer boat by installing such.
David Ess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 02:20 PM   #67
Scraping Paint
 
City: Niagara Falls
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 392
mvweebles.....It was NOT a "gas is dangerous' conversation, but that gas is more dangerous than electric induction stvoes, on boats. Nobody can try to claim gas is safer. You also posed a false dichotomy, ...coffee at 0400, by running a genetator, or no coffee. There is a third alternative......to have enough battery power to boil a coffee maker.
David Ess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 02:22 PM   #68
Scraping Paint
 
City: Niagara Falls
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 392
Lsrifkin...exactly...not even recent.
David Ess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 02:34 PM   #69
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
I wouldn't say they're all that recent. My boat was built with an electric (coil top, not induction) stove in 1986. I'm pretty sure the builder figured "well, it already has a generator and we can't find a good spot for a propane locker, so just put an electric stove in".
OK, well been in the boat building game in Oz since the early 80's and on this side of the pond, electric stoves in boats is a novelty/rarity.
Simi 60 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:17 PM   #70
Guru
 
City: Qualicum Beach, Vancouver Island
Vessel Name: Capricorn
Vessel Model: Mariner 30 - Sedan Cruiser 1969
Join Date: Feb 2019
Posts: 2,019
This is an older pie chart but it confirms what we already know, most boat fires are electrical. To state that electric cook tops are safer, its a difficult statistic to gather. If there is a cooktop related fire, it isn't recorded as electric cooktop but just "electrical" causation. It isn't just the cooktop but the supporting electrical connections, wire sizing, proper fuses, etc. Same with propane stove, it isn't just the stove but propane storage, propane hoses, etc.

One can't make the statement propane is more dangerous that electrical as the statistics don't exist. What you can say is that the majority of boat fires are electrical and electrical cooking poses the same risk (or more) than electrical items on the rest of the boat - higher amperage draw with all that implies.

Everything on a boat is a risk, trusting a hull to keep you dry is a risk, trusting cable steering is a risk, especially when those cables are really old. If we judged hulls on safety, I suspect steel hulls would be the safest, at least here in the PNW and coastal BC (thinking log strikes here), yet most hulls are fiberglass. We don't always use the statistically safest technique, procedure or construct. What we can do is look at the pie chart and we see fuel fires are 5 % and of that propane fires would be a very low statistic of all fuel fires.

https://www.boatus.com/magazine/2015...20vice%20versa.
rsn48 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:18 PM   #71
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by Simi 60 View Post
OK, well been in the boat building game in Oz since the early 80's and on this side of the pond, electric stoves in boats is a novelty/rarity.
Interesting. Starting in at least the 1970s in the US, the ubiquitous Princess electric range was the most common cooking appliance on motoryachts of more than 40-feet. I'd guess that since the mid 1990's or so, that started to change as many boats shoe-horned in high-end household appliances like Jennair.

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:23 PM   #72
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ess View Post
mvweebles.....It was NOT a "gas is dangerous' conversation, but that gas is more dangerous than electric induction stvoes, on boats. Nobody can try to claim gas is safer. You also posed a false dichotomy, ...coffee at 0400, by running a genetator, or no coffee. There is a third alternative......to have enough battery power to boil a coffee maker.
So I ask you Mr. Right-Fighter.....what's easier to install safely. A propane stove, or a hi-amp battery bank, especially a LiFePo4 one? You don't think anyone has been injured by sulfuric acid on FLA batteries? You don't think the fumes have ever exploded? You don't agree that electrical fires are a common source of fire on boats?

If you look at the BoatUS charts, 55% of boat fires are AC or DC. 18% are "other" and 11% are unknown - a total of 29%. Assume all of these are propane. Still leaves AC/DC as 2x more likely to cause a fire. Maybe propane would be more catastrophic, but to argue electricity is safe and propane is dangerous is not supported by the BoatUS data.

Don't get me wrong, I have a hi-amp LFP battery bank, but to say these are perfectly safe and that propane is dangerous, well, you may want to spend a bit more time on your keyboard.....

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:23 PM   #73
Guru
 
Simi 60's Avatar
 
City: Queensland
Vessel Model: Milkraft 60 converted timber prawn trawler
Join Date: Jul 2016
Posts: 4,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by David Ess View Post
It was the comparison, gas vs electric.....in boats........the latter is safer. Anybody can have a safer boat by installing such.
Prove it.
Simi 60 is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:30 PM   #74
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 5,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
So I ask you Mr. Right-Fighter.....what's easier to install safely. A propane stove, or a hi-amp battery bank, especially a LiFePo4 one? You don't think anyone has been injured by sulfuric acid on FLA batteries? You don't think the fumes have ever exploded? You don't agree that electrical fires are a common source of fire on boats?

Don't get me wrong, I have a hi-amp LFP battery bank, but to say these are perfectly safe and that propane is dangerous, well, you may want to spend a bit more time on your keyboard.....

Peter

My thoughts on it are more along the lines of, most of us are going to have a decent size electrical system that has to be made safe regardless of gas or electric stove. So what's easier to achieve a higher level of safety with: a slightly bigger electrical system or a whole separate system containing pressurized flammable stuff?
rslifkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:33 PM   #75
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,990
Quote:
Originally Posted by rslifkin View Post
My thoughts on it are more along the lines of, most of us are going to have a decent size electrical system that has to be made safe regardless of gas or electric stove. So what's easier to achieve a higher level of safety with: a slightly bigger electrical system or a whole separate system containing pressurized flammable stuff?
Umm.....not picking an argument, but aren't you the guy with gassers?
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:35 PM   #76
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 5,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Umm.....not picking an argument, but aren't you the guy with gassers?

Yes. Which is exactly why I don't need to add pressurized flammable stuff to my liquid flammable stuff. And then have one more system on the list of things that could kill me if something goes wrong.
rslifkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:38 PM   #77
Scraping Paint
 
City: Niagara Falls
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 392
Rsn48....its still bogus because by....fuel......they dont mean propane stoves.....but the fuel for the motors, usually diesel. So still, nobody is showing any proper comparison. And if say a boat explodes by leaking propane , and you dont want to call that a dangerous stove....well.....nothing more to talk about. Summary...nobody knows if a electric induction stove is safer than a propane one.
David Ess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:43 PM   #78
Scraping Paint
 
City: Niagara Falls
Join Date: Dec 2020
Posts: 392
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
Umm.....not picking an argument, but aren't you the guy with gassers?
The latter, and its why boats are going more towards electrical, instead of more by propane. They COULD use propane for many other things ...but they dont. Space heating, hot water, refridgeration, motor fuel, lighting, etc.
David Ess is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:46 PM   #79
Guru
 
mvweebles's Avatar
 
City: Saint Petersburg
Vessel Name: Weebles
Vessel Model: 1970 Willard 36 Trawler
Join Date: Mar 2019
Posts: 3,990
rslifkin - my guess is you're all set and have a great setup for your needs. But....if starting from scratch, given the added complexity of ignition protection for gassers, not sure a large battery system with a ton of switches and connections is necessarily safer than a propane system, especially since a gas boat has enhanced ventilation systems to evacuate combustible gases.

I'm not arguing one way or the other. I'm really comfortable with my decision to run propane for primary cooking, and use solar/battery for small appliances such as an induction hob, an instapot, and an electric tea kettle. But to suggest that one approach is safe and the other is not is just plain wrong. It's parroting back Internet chatter and not based in facts. Running a 30-amp circuit at near 30-amps due to having a range, water heater, A/C, etc. isn't exactly a good idea either (see picture in BoatUS article).

Peter
__________________
M/V Weebles
1970 Willard 36 Sedan Trawler
mvweebles is online now   Reply With Quote
Old 12-22-2020, 03:52 PM   #80
Guru
 
City: Rochester, NY
Vessel Name: Hour Glass
Vessel Model: Chris Craft Catalina 381
Join Date: Aug 2019
Posts: 5,343
Quote:
Originally Posted by mvweebles View Post
rslifkin - my guess is you're all set and have a great setup for your needs. But....if starting from scratch, given the added complexity of ignition protection for gassers, not sure a large battery system with a ton of switches and connections is necessarily safer than a propane system, especially since a gas boat has enhanced ventilation systems to evacuate combustible gases.

Concerns like that (and certain parts not coming in ignition protected versions) are why as much of my electrical system as practical is outside of the gasoline containing spaces. And that's also why I'm not going as far as planning to run the stove and other high draw items on battery / inverter. Being able to run the coffee maker, toaster, and stuff like that without the generator is good, but firing up the generator (and listening to it and the blowers) is no big deal when I need the stove away from the dock.

If I were truly designing from scratch, the boat wouldn't have gassers in it.
rslifkin is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Thread Tools Search this Thread
Search this Thread:

Advanced Search
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Trackbacks are Off
Pingbacks are Off
Refbacks are Off


» Trawler Port Captains
Port Captains are TF volunteers who can serve as local guides or assist with local arrangements and information. Search below to locate Port Captains near your destination. To learn more about this program read here: TF Port Captain Program





All times are GMT -5. The time now is 06:00 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.8 Beta 4
Copyright ©2000 - 2022, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.
Search Engine Optimization by vBSEO 3.6.0
Copyright 2006 - 2012