Aft cockpit Bilge Pump issues.

[rgano]

That is ridiculous engineering which puts a critical item like a bilge pump so inaccessible. I'd fix that. How would one get to the pump to make sure it has not tried to swallow an inadvertently misplaced wipe rag while the bilge continues to fill with water from an unknown source? I have seen bilge pumps and their float switch mounted onto elongated "L" shaped aluminum plate and even bent plexiglass to provide easy access the pumps in weird places. The pump and sensor sit horizontally on the short part of the ell while the long leg extends upward to a place where a couple of screws securing the rig can be easily removed allowing the rig to be lifted for maintenance or emergency. Extra wiring is of course de rigueur.

 

[BruceK]

BR, that is insanely difficult. The switch is often the culprit,flipper types are the worst imo. Not sure if yours is a Rule flipper in a case, or something better. I`ve had good experience with a Johnson Ultima, no moving parts, spendy but good. Can be tested by touching 2 fingers to little recesses,but you probably can`t. rgano has a good idea, all mounted on a plate or leg you can withdraw to service.
Hope you avoided moving the genset,best regards to the Lab.

 

[Bay Retriever]

BR, that is insanely difficult. The switch is often the culprit,flipper types are the worst imo. Not sure if yours is a Rule flipper in a case, or something better. I`ve had good experience with a Johnson Ultima, no moving parts, spendy but good. Can be tested by touching 2 fingers to little recesses,but you probably can`t. rgano has a good idea, all mounted on a plate or leg you can withdraw to service.
Hope you avoided moving the genset,best regards to the Lab.

Just spoke with yard manager who confirmed that the float sensor switch is the culprit and they will replace. Pump is working fine. They will also test the override switch and wiring to make sure there isn’t a fault at the control panel in the salon.

This all started when heavy rains meandered down into the aft cockpit bilge via overflowing the lazerette hatch drain because the boat was leaning to port due to improper placement of weights being used to hold down fiberglass repairs on the fly bridge. (Ughh)!

I have one other question: what are the likely causes of water being “trapped/found” under the engine? The area seems to be purposefully made separate from the rest of the drive shaft bilge compartment, which has its own float sensor and Rule 1500 pump. And the area below the engine does not appear to have a pump.

I originally noticed the water sometime after bringing the boat up from NC after closing in early September. Obviously it was not there during inspection and the engine tech who did the 1,000 hour service for me after getting to Virginia didn’t have an explanation either. He also confirmed that the water did not have any traces of antifreeze either. Thinking back, we did have a bit of a rough time with 4’ to 5’ seas crossing the Albermarle Sound during the transit from NC to Virginia.

Am about to drain the water and wipe down the area. Will also spot check after running the boat hopefully a few times later this month. My plan is to winterize the boat in water just before Christmas.

Your collective thoughts

 

[garmstro55]

Water under the engine could be a couple of things. I forget if you have a single or a twin. I have twins and had water in the starboard engine space from two sources: Had a cracked surge cannister in the freshwater system leaking slowly at first, then a deluge. Also have a slow leak in the water heater safety valve, which needs to be replaced. Water from the compartment under the lower helm seat will flow back into the starboard engine space.

Other possibilities: Leaking/overflowing AC drain pan under the helm seat, or leaky fresh water connection under there. Check fresh water connections, surge tank and strainer for fresh water in main engine room with fresh water pump turned on.

You probably have dripless shaft seals which use raw water to cool, those connections might be leaking. If you have standard stuffing boxes they are designed to drip a little, but I think the MS came dripless.

Also check heat exchanger connections, pencil zincs and cooling hoses for leaks while running the engine.

Good luck Tmac.

 

[Slowmo]

For whatever reason float switches seem to fail regularly. For a 'safety' device I'm really shocked that the manufacturers can get away with selling things that fail so frequently. I'm surprised that Rule or one of the others hasn't ended up in court when someone's boat was damaged or sunk because the switch didn't work.....

The reason I mention this is that if you own the boat a while you'll probably have to fix it again. So a) put the very best switch you can in and b) you might ask if there's any chance of it being made more accessible, and c) make sure the override works.

 

[Aquabelle]

Out of Interest, can you access the oil change pump and more importantly, what looks like a battery disconnect switch on bulkhead behind the bilge pump ?

 

[rgano]

Gary Armstrong's list pretty much covered the causes of water collection under the engines with, I think, one exception, and that is a leaking main engine seawater cooling pump water seal. I kept seeing water collecting under my single engine and had a devil of a time figuring it out, until I looked into my engine compartment from in front of the engine with a flashlight while underway. The drip was easy to see. Because the boat normally lives in a lift, I did not see any collection while there, nor could I see the drip with the engine off and clear of the water. Later on I had another seal go, and the boat was moored at my brother's home. I went to the boat the morning after we had arrived, and in the still of the morning could hear a steady dripping. There was a LOT of water under there.

 

[Dougcole]

Bay Retriever, do you still need pics of the gen-set mounts?

 

[Dougcole]

As to the idea of remounting the bildge pump, I wonder if it could be moved forward so that it is mounted just under the gen-set platform. The entire lazzerette on the 400 is flat and shallow, it's really hard to get all the water out since there is no sort of sump or deeper spot. I don't think it would make it empty any worse to move the pump to a more accessible spot, but I could be wrong.

 

[Bay Retriever]

Bay Retriever, do you still need pics of the gen-set mounts?

Don’t need but would like genset schematic and owners manual. We eventually got access to the pump and sensor by removing the battery and raw water strainer.

 

[Bay Retriever]

As to the idea of remounting the bildge pump, I wonder if it could be moved forward so that it is mounted just under the gen-set platform. The entire lazzerette on the 400 is flat and shallow, it's really hard to get all the water out since there is no sort of sump or deeper spot. I don't think it would make it empty any worse to move the pump to a more accessible spot, but I could be wrong.

After removing the battery and raw water strainer, we gained access to pump and strainer. While bilge area appears flat, it must be slightly pitched toward the bulkhead. When soaking up water and drying area around pump and sensor before replacing them, we noticed remaining water accumulated around pump at bulkhead.

As one fellow MSer said, just a bad design.

 

[porman]

Don’t need but would like genset schematic and owners manual. We eventually got access to the pump and sensor by removing the battery and raw water strainer.

Using Google I found PDF documents of the Kohler owners manual, a parts manual, and the manual for the Yanmar diesel. The Kohler manual covers several different models. Google Kohler TP-6053.

 

[Dougcole]

After removing the battery and raw water strainer, we gained access to pump and strainer. While bilge area appears flat, it must be slightly pitched toward the bulkhead. When soaking up water and drying area around pump and sensor before replacing them, we noticed remaining water accumulated around pump at bulkhead.

As one fellow MSer said, just a bad design.

OK, makes sense. It is a poor design, but I'm not sure what you could do differently without changing the shape of the hull. I've ruminated on this as well with no solution. On my 400, since it is such a large almost flat space it takes quite a bit of water to raise the float pump arm enough to make the pump come on. By the time it comes on it's full all the way aft to the rudder posts.


I generally don't get that much water in there though, caulking the door on the storage area under the steps and adjusting the lazerrete lid latches helped a lot. I also plumbed a second mushroom type through hull into the aft port side corner of the lid gutter, it helps to keep the gutter from overflowing.

 

[Bay Retriever]

OK, makes sense. It is a poor design, but I'm not sure what you could do differently without changing the shape of the hull. I've ruminated on this as well with no solution. On my 400, since it is such a large almost flat space it takes quite a bit of water to raise the float pump arm enough to make the pump come on. By the time it comes on it's full all the way aft to the rudder posts.


I generally don't get that much water in there though, caulking the door on the storage area under the steps and adjusting the lazerrete lid latches helped a lot. I also plumbed a second mushroom type through hull into the aft port side corner of the lid gutter, it helps to keep the gutter from overflowing.

I would definitely like to see the internal plumbing pictures of the second mushroom thru hull and modifications you made to the aft port side lazerette lid/lip gutter. Great ideas as this would probably have prevented/minimized what happened in my case!

 

[koliver]

OK, makes sense. It is a poor design, but I'm not sure what you could do differently without changing the shape of the hull. I've ruminated on this as well with no solution. On my 400, since it is such a large almost flat space it takes quite a bit of water to raise the float pump arm enough to make the pump come on. By the time it comes on it's full all the way aft to the rudder posts.


I generally don't get that much water in there though, caulking the door on the storage area under the steps and adjusting the lazerrete lid latches helped a lot. I also plumbed a second mushroom type through hull into the aft port side corner of the lid gutter, it helps to keep the gutter from overflowing.

As long as you are aware that your bilge pump is not located in the absolute lowest part of the bilge, when you do your periodic WOT running, turn the pump(s) on. They will dry the "new" lowest part. Then when you slow to normal cruising speed, or stop, the water is gone.

 

[Dougcole]

I would definitely like to see the internal plumbing pictures of the second mushroom thru hull and modifications you made to the aft port side lazerette lid/lip gutter. Great ideas as this would probably have prevented/minimized what happened in my case!

I won't be back down to the boat for a few weeks, so won't be able to post pics until then, but its pretty simple. There is a wider flat spot in the gutter at the port aft corner. If you unhook the hatch lifters you can open the hatch lid wide enough to drill a 3/4 inch (or maybe a 1"?) hole there. It is solid glass, no core. I installed a nylon "mushroom head" through hull there.


For plumbing, I teed it into the cockpit drain hose (IIRC it is from the center scupper) that runs right under it in the laz. You will need an adaptor to go from 3/4" hose to the larger drain hose (1 1/4"?).


Because it has a little lip on it, the new additional drain is not quite as low as the original drain on the STB side, so it doesn't handle as much water as that one does, but it serves as a back up if that one gets overwhelmed or clogs.


My original drain clogged once, a lot of dirt and debris flows into that gutter. So it's nice to have a backup.