Plumbing: Crimp/Press copper fittings

[GoneDiving]

I would like to use copper press fittings to replumb my vessel: water rated for potable water and gas rated for diesel fuel.

Has anyone used these with success or otherwise? I wouldn't trust my soldering in the many out of position locations and these seem to be a good solution.

Many crimpers have "V" series jaws while others are "TH". I assume these are single grooves over the oring vs crimping down a flat colar. For the fittings below, would I need "V" jaws?

https://plumbingsales.com.au/copper-tube-fittings/kempress-gas/15mm-connector-kempress-gas.html

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/332905738625

Thanks

 

[Comodave]

Not sure where you are located but here I would use PEX tube and fittings. Very easy to work with and very durable.

 

[socalrider]

I’m planning on PEX for water. For diesel I’m just going with brass barb fittings, good hose clamps, and A1 fuel line. Easy and anything more seems overkill for under 10psi.

 

[bligh]

I would like to use copper press fittings to replumb my vessel: water rated for potable water and gas rated for diesel fuel.

Has anyone used these with success or otherwise? I wouldn't trust my soldering in the many out of position locations and these seem to be a good solution.

Many crimpers have "V" series jaws while others are "TH". I assume these are single grooves over the oring vs crimping down a flat colar. For the fittings below, would I need "V" jaws?

https://plumbingsales.com.au/copper-tube-fittings/kempress-gas/15mm-connector-kempress-gas.html

https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/332905738625

Thanks

Why not PEX piping?

 

[FF]

A boat is not a house, so sadly at times systems will have to be trouble shot to solve a problem.

Its much easier to unscrew good hose clamps than cut off locking crimps.

On my boats flair fittings seem the easiest for liquids.

 

[Solly]

With the vibration in a boat I'd be a little leery of solder or crimp connections. Reinforced vinyl (plastic) hose and barb fittings for water. Copper and flare fittings for anything flammable. Although hose rated for fuel (diesel and gas) and barb fittings would be okay too. Propane, use made up hoses rated for LPG.

 

[AlanT]

PEX all the way for me for water (House, Cabin which freezes, and boat). The ease of running a flexible Pex supply line, making connections (with the right tool which is expensive) make it a compelling choice. Then the fact that it rarely fails even when suffering freezing conditions, and is not susceptible to vibration are the icing on the cake.
~A

 

[Portage_Bay]

Agree with the recommendation to not use solder or crimp. Not only due to the vibrations but due to the challenge of working in tight spaces. I'd also avoid compression fittings due to vibration.

I just finished a complete overhaul of the steering system. I'm not sure I'll ever use copper on a boat again. The cost, quality and availability of copper makes it a distant second choice for me. Add in the challenge of bending the copper around multiple twists and turns without work hardening it and I'll in future go with rated hose for fuel, LPG and hydraulics. PEX or similar for water.

I don't use Sharkbite due to cost except when connecting old copper to new PEX. I also don't use PEX's fittings. I prefer Flair-it fittings, easy to use, no special tools required, less expensive.

 

[ksanders]

My boat was OEM built with Whale tubing and fittings.

This is the same as PEX, probably is PEX but is metric sized

All the advantages of PEX plus you get fittings that can be installed, and taken apart. No hose clamps either.

Disadvantages... You are tied to Whale brand tubing and fittings, but they are very popular and available at marine supply houses here in the USA at least.

 

[tiltrider1]

My OA uses copper thru out for water and fuel. I can see why you want to use it. OA did not solder or crimp. They felt neither method was acceptable for boating. Every joint is flared using a flared connector and flared Union.

If you want to use copper I would recommend sticking with this tried and true method.

Flaring tools can be as cheap as $30.

 

[stubones99]

Pex is not good with high heat or UV. I suspect a surveyor would have a problem with the use of Pex for fuel since it lacks the fire retardant like A1-15 hose would.

 

[Portage_Bay]

Pex is not good with high heat or UV. I suspect a surveyor would have a problem with the use of Pex for fuel since it lacks the fire retardant like A1-15 hose would.

Agreed. I don't see anyone in this thread recommending PEX for fuel. Only for potable water.

 

[stubones99]

Agreed. I don't see anyone in this thread recommending PEX for fuel. Only for potable water.

I thought I saw someone recommending using PEX for fuel too. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
Stu

 

[Ken E.]

Another vote for PEX for potable water. I used the Uponor expander ring PEX system and it worked out well.

 

[GoneDiving]

Thanks guys. I was proposing copper waterlines as I'll only be installing minimal new runs and the existing water plumbing is compression fittings. No leaks on the existing 20yo system.

Fuel I'll have to think about. Again the exiting is copper pipe and compression fittings but it's taken a beating. 3 tanks at the furthest ends of the vessel. No leaks but numerous dented and crushed lines. I also want to make some valve, filter and transfer additions so it will be easier just to pull everything and start again.

 

[Comodave]

Yes the approved fuel hose will be better than the old copper fuel lines. Start over and clean the system up. Have fun and let us know how it goes.

 

[Datenight]

Another vote for PEX for potable water. I used the Uponor expander ring PEX system and it worked out well.

My boat was built with the Uponor system and it is what I used in our house. It was the obvious choice for me when making up a bypass for the water heater when winterizing.

Rob

 

[bligh]

My boat was built with the Uponor system and it is what I used in our house. It was the obvious choice for me when making up a bypass for the water heater when winterizing.

Rob

PEX likely shouldn't be that close to your water heater, especially if it goes to 180 degrees F.

 

[porman]

PEX not recommended for high heat? That's what Sure Marine recommended for my hydronic heat installation. I used the crimp fittings and haven't had any leaks. I had to remove one crimp and a die grinder took it off with no damage to the PEX.

 

[catalinajack]

The first 18 inches from the hot side of any water heater should be copper whether using CPVC or Pex.

PEX likely shouldn't be that close to your water heater, especially if it goes to 180 degrees F.

 

[DDW]

There is PEX rated for hot water. The Uponor system can be used in some pretty tight places, the Milwaulkee expansion tool is small and if you are quick you can use it in the open, unlike a crimper.

 

[catalinajack]

Pex is indeed rated for hot water but building codes specify that the first 18 inches from the heater must be copper. There is good reason for this. I recently installed a new Indel Webasto heater using Pex straight from the heater. Yup, the tubing burst filling the engine room with steam. Fortunately, I was not in the ER when the tubing burst else I could have been scalded badly. Sure, it may not happen in particular installations but it can and does happen. I was also lucky that I was nearby and able to shut the electric supply else I would have burnt out the heating element.

There is PEX rated for hot water. The Uponor system can be used in some pretty tight places, the Milwaulkee expansion tool is small and if you are quick you can use it in the open, unlike a crimper.

This is it should be.

 

[bligh]

PEX not recommended for high heat? That's what Sure Marine recommended for my hydronic heat installation. I used the crimp fittings and haven't had any leaks. I had to remove one crimp and a die grinder took it off with no damage to the PEX.

PEX turns into hot candle wax at about 220 degrees F.

160 degrees F is fine for hydronic heat. 180 degrees at less than 25 psi would be fine too. But a closed loop system near a water heater that normally runs at 180 psi and is subject to large expansion pressure changes might not be a good idea. If you engine coolant is hotter than 180 and runs through the water heater, then its definitely not a good idea.



My coolant water is about 190, so I'm borderline. I use pex in the system but not near the water heater.

 

[Datenight]

PEX turns into hot candle wax at about 220 degrees F.

160 degrees F is fine for hydronic heat. 180 degrees at less than 25 psi would be fine too. But a closed loop system near a water heater that normally runs at 180 psi and is subject to large expansion pressure changes might not be a good idea. If you engine coolant is hotter than 180 and runs through the water heater, then its definitely not a good idea.



My coolant water is about 190, so I'm borderline. I use pex in the system but not near the water heater.

The PEX in the photo is rated for 200 degrees at 80 PSI. No problem in this application. Does your system really run at 180 PSI?

Rob

 

[bligh]

180 psi?

Technically the t&p valve on your water heater is most likely 150 psi, so your hot water system could, under certain circumstances, reach that pressure.

Also under certain circumstances, your temperature could go up as well.

Both scenarios are unlikely, but north American plumbing codes protect pex against both of circumstances.

 

[catalinajack]

180 psi?

Technically the t&p valve on your water heater is most likely 150 psi, so your hot water system could, under certain circumstances, reach that pressure.

Also under certain circumstances, your temperature could go up as well.

Both scenarios are unlikely, but north American plumbing codes protect pex against both of circumstances.

The unlikely is why North American code calls for 18 inches of copper leading from the heater. Normally, I am not one that equips for the high unlikely; for example spending $2,500 to retrofit with dual Racor filter assemblies on two engines or a fuel polishing system. But in this case, installing a bit of copper is so simple and so inexpensive it is truly cheap insurance. In my case, a brand new water heater came with a faulty primary thermostat. The water continued to heat until it reached 210 degrees whereupon the safety thermostat invoked and turned off the heater. Of course, I hit the reset button. Then, boom it went. If you look closely at the picture I posted earlier you will see the sound insulation above the out pipe is brown. That was from the hot water and steam jetting upwards. Imagine what that would have done to skin. So, yes, Pex is rated high enough for our systems but for a few dollars for one extra fitting and 18 inches of copper I will happily keep my copper.

As for Temp & Pressure safety valves, both Indel Webasto and Seaward 11-gallon water heaters come with 100 psi valves. Also, for those who use engine coolant to heat water while underway, the water can become heated as high as 200 degrees! That, my friends is pushing fate but, as with many things boating, it's all about risk evaluation versus cost. In this case, the cost is about $12 for an extra brass Sharkbite fitting and whatever 18 inches of copper cost. Geez.

 

[FF]

World wide copper tubing is close enough to the same that a repair is no big deal.

Plastic tubing at your local box store might not work with other plastic fittings or sealing rings in Central America ,Hispanolia or other cruising locations.

A 50 ft coil of tubing will solve future problems , way into the future , for you or the next owner.

The only cost is the first time install,and the price of a refrigeration grade flairing set, cheap insurance.

 

[FoxtrotCharlie]

Our 1988 boat also has Whale system (early pex) for fresh water. All fuel, steering/auto-pilot, and propane lines are flared copper. Copper fuel lines are coated/covered in a yellow plastic - easy to identify. All have held up well so far.

 

[Sofa King Fishy]

Whale is an excellent choice if you’re refitting. They’re metric, so, easy to find parts should you venture outside the US. The fittings are also removable & reusable.

 

[ttompkins]

Why not just re plumb the boat using PEX? I re plumbed my mainship about 5 or 6 years ago with PEX A, much easier than dinking around with copper. Has worked flawless ever since. Pex is a dream to work with, simple, straight forward, very easy to run through out the boat. Try it, you will like it.