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Simi 60 04-17-2018 08:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gordon J (Post 655547)
All of you who believe in mandatory safety equipment on a dink or a big boat should be happy to see the CG. No use having rules which aren’t enforced. Being inspected is the price you have to pay to ensure your safety. If you think life jackets, flares, etc should be mandatory, even on a dink, don’t complain about getting boarded. Embrace big brother.

I will never be happy about someone phone tapping, reading my emails, tracking my whereabouts, tracking what websites I go to and entering my home without permission.

What next? Disappearing people away into the night without proof of wrongdoing?
Oh wait, they do that already as well.

It might interest you to know that I live in a land where I have never once been boarded in my forty years on the water.
Funny how we can manage to have safety gear on our boats without it happening.

OldDan1943 04-17-2018 08:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simi 60 (Post 655554)
I will never be happy about someone phone tapping, reading my emails, tracking my whereabouts, tracking what websites I go to and entering my home without permission.

What next? Disappearing people away into the night without proof of wrongdoing?
Oh wait, they do that already as well.

It might interest you to know that I live in a land where I have never once been boarded in my forty years on the water.
Funny how we can manage to have safety gear on our boats without it happening.

NEVER? Hmmm, I guess they dont love you. LOL

menzies 04-17-2018 08:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simi 60 (Post 655554)
I will never be happy about someone phone tapping, reading my emails, tracking my whereabouts, tracking what websites I go to and entering my home without permission.

What next? Disappearing people away into the night without proof of wrongdoing?
Oh wait, they do that already as well.

It might interest you to know that I live in a land where I have never once been boarded in my forty years on the water.
Funny how we can manage to have safety gear on our boats without it happening.

But then Aussie isn't somewhere that is attractive to the kind of criminals and level of criminal activity that the USCG is targeting.

It is a double edged sword. Be grateful that you don't require that level of diligence.

At the same time consider why people, other than yourselves, really don't see any opportunity your country provides, legal or otherwise.

OldDan1943 04-17-2018 09:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by menzies (Post 655565)
But then Aussie isn't somewhere that is attractive to the kind of criminals and level of criminal activity that the USCG is targeting.

It is a double edged sword. Be grateful that you don't require that level of diligence.

At the same time consider why people, other than yourselves, really don't see any opportunity your country provides, legal or otherwise.

The USCG is putting itself in danger every time they get near another boat and/or board it.

MurrayM 04-17-2018 09:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by menzies (Post 655565)

At the same time consider why people, other than yourselves, really don't see any opportunity your country provides, legal or otherwise.

That attitude makes you few friends outside your own borders :socool:

DC36Monk 04-18-2018 02:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by siestakey (Post 655315)
Larry were both your days on a weekend?

Monk I really think your dreaming but who knows



Maybe I am but it seems to me when I'm in Puget Sound 70 miles from the Canadian Border they should need a reason to come into my home and go through my stuff.

For example, CBP Regs say any place within 100 miles of a border is a "border zone" where they can make random stops and searches to secure our borders from evil. The state of Washington is about 350 miles west to East and 200 miles north to south, less on the coast. Draw those lines on a map and you will see they cover all of Western Washington (about 70% of the population) and the northern 100 miles of the Eastern part of the state. ASD' hide out is probably not safe under those rules.

Now they don't use that Reg to its limit and if get community pushback tend to back off (you don't want to push a bunch of former loggers in Forks, they have attitude). But they could and frankly, if they did I think it's very likely a federal judge would tell them there Reg was unconstitutionally over broad and unenforceable. That's what federal courts do, hold the government accountable to the people.

So, if I'm cruising my 8 knots up the sound they might stop me - has never happened in forty years of doing it - and ask to inspect. And when I nicely ask if there is anything special they feel a need to inspect they'll likely say something about safety and documents. At that point I'll tell them we have PDFs (unless in the cabin we wear approved inflatables and point to the current state sticker and the letters and numbers on the bow.

Really can't imagine them pushing more, but if they did they would probably nicely be told that they are conducting an unlawful search and seizure under the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S Constitution( Fourteenth is for the state guy they have riding with them). And if they continued I would tell the PO2 or 3 in charge that I was not consenting to boarding, search or seizure,

And later would be the letter to the District Commandant and Regional Counsel explains why they should counsel their guys to tone it done and back off. Sometimes General Counsel wants to bluster and push the were right your a dip shit approach but usually they have enough important (accountable to the boss) stuff to do so that they also want people behaving reasonably.

Of course it can go sideways and if someone wants to cuff up a nice 68 year old boat owner and his 69'year old wife, they will be required to explain there training, education and all the whys and wherefore a of why they did something so clearly unnecessary such that the General Counsel now faces spinning out a law enforcement imperative justifying their behavior for a skeptical federal judge.

So maybe I. Dreaming but I'm not a jailhouse lawyer and I have typically found that I can express myself to others Ina way that is non-threatening but makes it clear they should rethink what they had thought before.

And if they did it when we were at anchor sleeping, no judge will think they're other than earnest well meaning Coasties who being young need far better training and supervision.

So, I think in the circumstances I describe the statute they rely on is unconstitutionally over broad. And if they're boarding the same boats multiple days in the Miami River, upon request, there is a congressman who upon request from his/her supporter swill ask the honcho Coasties in DC about the problem and that shit will then run downhill to region, district, station, boat and watch and will be real stinky turds by the time they arrive.

The problem is rarely the law, although there are some here that are pretty suspect. It's always the minions who are told someone's interpretation of what someone else may have been told, etc, and then act like its the gospel. But, then that's just how most things work. Why do you think lawyers can charge so much.

BruceK 04-18-2018 02:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MurrayM (Post 655250)
..I've never heard anyone in our area complaining about random police boardings, have you? How about back east? Australia? Europe?

In NSW state in Australia, we have combined the Roads and Maritime Authorities into "Roads and Maritime".There followed an upsurge in large high powered black RIBs crewed by black clad men. So far I`ve not been stopped by them,but we have "random alcohol breath testing" on the roads, and water. You can be stopped without cause for an RBT,and I think an equipment check, and prosecuted if appropriate.
The Maritime arm of R&M also has on water services, and they do apprehend and board as necessary. I`ve never been stopped by them, but I think they have "policing type" powers.
We don`t have Coastguard. But we do have Water Police, who perform a rescue and police function on water, and are well regarded. They have a variety of vessels, from serious seagoing vessels to harbour patrol boats.
We also have Marine Rescue, a volunteer service funded by a charge on boat registrations and licenses. Sometimes referred to as "Dad`s Army" after a UK TV series, it provides both on water help, and a radio logon service for coastal transits.
In general I think we are well served,and despite the multiplicity, not heavily policed.

psneeld 04-18-2018 06:42 AM

DC36Monk...

really not the way it works.

the USCG technically isnt doing a search, it is verifying administrative requirements.

They get to look at stuff and systems on the list, but cant go through lockers, drawers or cabinets without probable cause.

The farther you are away from civilization, true the less likely you are to be boarded because of location, but, if a USCG vessel is out on generic patrol ....your chances of getting boarded go way up.

True., luck of the draw has a lot to do with it ss some get boarded often, some never.

But if you boat long enough and a lot, it would be rare to have never been boarded.

Group9 04-18-2018 07:11 AM

I'm sixty and have been boating all of my life. I have been boarded twice by the Coast Guard. Once in the Bahamas in 1987 on a sailboat, ( we saw another sailboat miles away, and we both veered over for an impromptu race, and I'm guessing it looked suspicious on radar) and the second time on our dinghy (checked not boarded) in Fort Myers Beach. Both times, it was a pleasant enough experience.

I have been approached twice by U. S. Customs and Border Protection boats,both times in Florida. Both times they just pulled up beside us, talked to us a minute, asked us if we were returning from outside the US, and thanked us and resumed their course off when we said we hadn't.

Not exactly Nazi Germany. But, I do understand some peoples concerns. No one likes to feel like they are a criminal under investigation, when they know they haven't done anything wrong. It's human nature. I don't either.

OldDan1943 04-18-2018 07:22 AM

LOL The USCG board you, inspects your safety equipment, makes sure you are not drunk or stoned and a visual evaluation of your general health because they care for your safety and life. Just like your mama.
Ah yup, you believe that. LOL

ranger58sb 04-18-2018 07:56 AM

I suspect individual background and perceptions are flavoring the experience, for some.

Given our own personal background, Coasties with sidearms and heavy boots, patrol boats with machine guns... are pretty much expected, not all all something we'd consider extraordinary or especially threatening. Uniform of the day, no big deal.

Perhaps folks not used to all that are the ones who tend to use terminology like "jack booted thugs" and "armed to the teeth" and so forth. Not a criticism, just a thought about how background might be flavoring the experience.

-Chris

GFC 04-18-2018 11:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DC36Monk (Post 655612)
Maybe I am but it seems to me when I'm in Puget Sound 70 miles from the Canadian Border they should need a reason to come into my home and go through my stuff.

For example, CBP Regs say any place within 100 miles of a border is a "border zone" where they can make random stops and searches to secure our borders from evil. The state of Washington is about 350 miles west to East and 200 miles north to south, less on the coast. Draw those lines on a map and you will see they cover all of Western Washington (about 70% of the population) and the northern 100 miles of the Eastern part of the state. ASD' hide out is probably not safe under those rules.

Now they don't use that Reg to its limit and if get community pushback tend to back off (you don't want to push a bunch of former loggers in Forks, they have attitude). But they could and frankly, if they did I think it's very likely a federal judge would tell them there Reg was unconstitutionally over broad and unenforceable. That's what federal courts do, hold the government accountable to the people.

So, if I'm cruising my 8 knots up the sound they might stop me - has never happened in forty years of doing it - and ask to inspect. And when I nicely ask if there is anything special they feel a need to inspect they'll likely say something about safety and documents. At that point I'll tell them we have PDFs (unless in the cabin we wear approved inflatables and point to the current state sticker and the letters and numbers on the bow.

Really can't imagine them pushing more, but if they did they would probably nicely be told that they are conducting an unlawful search and seizure under the Fourth and Fourteenth Amendments of the U.S Constitution( Fourteenth is for the state guy they have riding with them). And if they continued I would tell the PO2 or 3 in charge that I was not consenting to boarding, search or seizure,

And later would be the letter to the District Commandant and Regional Counsel explains why they should counsel their guys to tone it done and back off. Sometimes General Counsel wants to bluster and push the were right your a dip shit approach but usually they have enough important (accountable to the boss) stuff to do so that they also want people behaving reasonably.

Of course it can go sideways and if someone wants to cuff up a nice 68 year old boat owner and his 69'year old wife, they will be required to explain there training, education and all the whys and wherefore a of why they did something so clearly unnecessary such that the General Counsel now faces spinning out a law enforcement imperative justifying their behavior for a skeptical federal judge.

So maybe I. Dreaming but I'm not a jailhouse lawyer and I have typically found that I can express myself to others Ina way that is non-threatening but makes it clear they should rethink what they had thought before.

And if they did it when we were at anchor sleeping, no judge will think they're other than earnest well meaning Coasties who being young need far better training and supervision.

So, I think in the circumstances I describe the statute they rely on is unconstitutionally over broad. And if they're boarding the same boats multiple days in the Miami River, upon request, there is a congressman who upon request from his/her supporter swill ask the honcho Coasties in DC about the problem and that shit will then run downhill to region, district, station, boat and watch and will be real stinky turds by the time they arrive.

The problem is rarely the law, although there are some here that are pretty suspect. It's always the minions who are told someone's interpretation of what someone else may have been told, etc, and then act like its the gospel. But, then that's just how most things work. Why do you think lawyers can charge so much.

Monk, in all my years as a LEO and sitting through hundreds and hundreds of court cases while waiting for my arrestee's case to be called, and listening to hundreds of defendants who suddenly have become shithouse lawyers try to convince the judge that a long standing law is unjust or biased or whatever his belief is, the judge's reply is always the same:
"Guilty as charged".

You need to adjust your belief system to the way the real world operates or if you get boarded you're going to be in deep pookey.

When the nice coastie says you're going to be boarded, just heave to and let it happen. If you do that you'll soon be on your way. If you don't, you will be the guy in handcuffs.

BandB 04-18-2018 12:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GFC (Post 655726)

You need to adjust your belief system to the way the real world operates or if you get boarded you're going to be in deep pookey.

.

It's not his belief system that has to adapt but his actions and behavior. He can believe it's wrong and unjust all the wants, just better go along with it peacefully.

Delfin 04-18-2018 12:17 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GFC (Post 655726)
Monk, in all my years as a LEO and sitting through hundreds and hundreds of court cases while waiting for my arrestee's case to be called, and listening to hundreds of defendants who suddenly have become shithouse lawyers try to convince the judge that a long standing law is unjust or biased or whatever his belief is, the judge's reply is always the same:
"Guilty as charged".

You need to adjust your belief system to the way the real world operates or if you get boarded you're going to be in deep pookey.

When the nice coastie says you're going to be boarded, just heave to and let it happen. If you do that you'll soon be on your way. If you don't, you will be the guy in handcuffs.

+1

If your boat is puttering around on your private lake, the Coasties have no standing to board your vessel, much less come on your property. However, if you are in the navigable waters of the U.S., you are subject to the laws of the U.S. and those laws allow the Coast Guard to do safety inspections and verify regulatory compliance since a failure to be safe means the likelihood the Coast Guard has to come to your rescue and the taxpayers pay for that rescue increases.

Arguing that they have no right to do these inspections is like arguing that the state has no right to inspect your vehicle for pollution controls and safety. Once you set out on public roads, they do, and the Coast Guard has similar rights when you venture onto public waterways.

Great Laker 04-18-2018 12:23 PM

Earlier I wrote about multiple CG boardings in Jacksonville, and raised questions about the appropriateness of this use for training, and questioned if this was a good use of government resources. It was not a complaint about the legality or an indictment of the process. I have another observation regarding enforcement of regulations and safety procedures and believe it is related to the subject of this discussion.

We live on a 7 mi long lake which joins a river with access to Lake MI. Because this is a port city, it is maintained by the Army Corps of Engineers (ACE) (piers and dredging), a home port for CG ships (life saving and patrolling), and subject to local ordinances by the city and township (safety, speed and wake limits). It is popular for local boaters and a frequent stopover for Great Lakes cruisers.

The good news is we are fortunate to have lots of opportunities to take family and friends on cruises even when Lake MI is blown out. The bad news is a boater here must be knowledgeable of multiple regulations which are overlapping and sometimes conflicting, and especially on weekends may be stopped and detained multiple times by the CG or Sheriff or both. This is good to enforce intoxicated or unsafe driving, but bad if these are random choices with few findings just to check a box.

Example 1: While the CG requires a wakeless speed entering or departing the river from Lake MI through the piers, it has no speed limit on the river beyond that. On the other hand, the city requires a wakeless speed for the first two miles as you go up the river and it is not posted.

Example 2: The CG has no speed limit on our lake, but the township requires boats longer than 26 feet to be wakeless and this is not posted. Plus, it is inconsistent that wakeboard boats under 26 feet can throw a 2-3 ft high wake at low speed without issue, while someone over 26 ft can be stopped and fined for a 2" foam curl.

Especially on weekends, there are multiple Sheriff and CG boats patrolling. It is not unusual to be stopped once and on occasion twice on the same day. The most popular thing is to see if there are enough life jackets for each person on board.

Bottom line is that as captains we must be aware of and comply with regulations where ever we cruise, however, the government regulations and enforcement activities should be reviewed periodically to see if they are appropriate and effective.

OldDan1943 04-18-2018 01:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delfin (Post 655736)
+1

If your boat is puttering around on your private lake, the Coasties have no standing to board your vessel, much less come on your property. However, if you are in the navigable waters of the U.S., you are subject to the laws of the U.S. and those laws allow the Coast Guard to do safety inspections and verify regulatory compliance since a failure to be safe means the likelihood the Coast Guard has to come to your rescue and the taxpayers pay for that rescue increases.

Arguing that they have no right to do these inspections is like arguing that the state has no right to inspect your vehicle for pollution controls and safety. Once you set out on public roads, they do, and the Coast Guard has similar rights when you venture onto public waterways.

Go ahead use that argument. Tell us how long you will be in jail and how big your fine is

dannc 04-18-2018 01:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Delfin (Post 655736)
+1

If your boat is puttering around on your private lake, the Coasties have no standing to board your vessel, much less come on your property. However, if you are in the navigable waters of the U.S., you are subject to the laws of the U.S. and those laws allow the Coast Guard to do safety inspections and verify regulatory compliance since a failure to be safe means the likelihood the Coast Guard has to come to your rescue and the taxpayers pay for that rescue increases.
...

Yep.

Bit of history so to speak. Back in the last century, when I lived in South FLA, the USCG was trying to extend their powers into the "Everglades" aka the Water Management Districts. Their argument was that the waters of the Everglades were navigable because a canoe could float in the water.

Don't think that went anywhere but it sure caused some interesting discussions....

Later,
Dan

Tom.B 04-18-2018 02:09 PM

Bess loves it when they board us... She has the hots for them youngn'z!

True story: During our last boarding, we were nekkid as jaybirds when the Coasties rolled up on us. They quickly learned part of the reason we named our boat what we did. Bess tells a better story about it than I do. They approached us from ahead, yet, they knew the name of the boat when they hailed us on VHF. They wouldn't have known that without having done some binocular reconnaissance.

menzies 04-18-2018 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by OldDan1943 (Post 655742)
Go ahead use that argument. Tell us how long you will be in jail and how big your fine is

What argument are you referring to there Dan?

dhays 04-18-2018 03:36 PM

I read Monk’s post to mean he would verbally object to being boarded, but would not resist. I certainly don’t think there is anything wrong with that.

“Request permission to board you Captain.”

“You don’t have my permission, but I will not resist in any way what I consider an unlawful action.”

Short, sweet, and cordial. The USCG personal will do what they need to do, Monk will voice his opinion, and life will go on.


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