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-   -   Combiner or Isolator (https://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s4/combiner-isolator-34389.html)

john61ct 08-29-2017 12:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FF (Post 587934)
There is no charge unless the engine is running, so joining the house to the start batt, after engine start is all that is required

Perhaps in a particular scenario, but most setups do also use a shore charger, and many have solar for living on the hook as well.

sdowney717 08-29-2017 01:00 PM

ACR is a good idea. I though went with the cheaper continuous duty relay as it was a lot cheaper, bought off Amazon rated at 80 amps.

I have an inline manual switch and when ignition is on for the starboard engine, power is sent to the manual switch, then to the relay. So I can turn it off if I wish. I put this in so that both alternators from each engine can simultaneously charge both battery banks. I have a starter battery as bank 1, and 2 house batteries as bank 2. So with a combiner relay, the port alternator gets to share the load with the starboard alternator. The starboard bank 2,house bank is always running down, so it helps charge it more quickly with less alternator stress combining the output of 2 alternators together.

I have ammeters on both banks, and turning on the relay, bumps up the output of port alternator to 30 amps and drops output of starboard alternator from 50 to 30 amps.
So in lots of ways it works fine for me.

The alternators are Delco 12SI, internal regulator, single wire.

rwidman 08-29-2017 01:16 PM

An ACR or battery combiner is as simple as it gets. No switches, no buttons, just install it and forget about it.

psneeld 08-29-2017 01:24 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct (Post 588050)
Perhaps in a particular scenario, but most setups do also use a shore charger, and many have solar for living on the hook as well.

Those can be connected to the house bank as the start battery in good condition can go for months if you shut down and it is fully charged.

Jumper cables or a jumper to the solenoid could cover those rare times the start battery is low.

Having something simple and cheap is good for remote areas over a combiner unless you carry a spare or backyard engineer a fix.

For most cruising near West Marine stores have no worries... :D

john61ct 08-29-2017 03:31 PM

With that specific ML series Blue Sea ACR, there is no need to carry a spare.

With a cheap solenoid there definitely is.

I happen to use quality batteries for starting as well as House, so for me letting it go months without a charge is not something I would do intentionally.

The 7622 model has a manual switch to use for self-jumpstarting off House if needed, I don't think it's worth paying for and storing the massive heavy long cables for just that purpose, likely never needed if your system is designed and installed properly.

Note the cranking amps rating on the ML unit is 2500A, that 500A rating is continuous.

I personally would never try cranking through a device rated at 80A.

psneeld 08-29-2017 04:11 PM

A bit off base in my opinion.

Any piece of eqipment can fail.

Inexpensive doesnt mean cheap and prone to failure.

Jumper cables are not massive or hard to store.

The solenoid concept isnt meant to try starting through unless you have one rated for it.

It is simple and definitely workable and way less expensive...

You are trying to convince people to go with something nice but pointing out negatives tbat just arent true to the KISS principle wint convince me.

john61ct 08-29-2017 04:20 PM

ACR to me is 100% within KISS

You just heard from CMS that **that one** doesn't fail, and there is no more reliable an expert out there IMO, based on servicing hundreds of boats over the years.

Plus keep in mind this isn't mission critical functionality anyway - assuming it failed closed, or your alt is still servicing the Starter batt anyway.

Show me, link to, what you consider a good reliable high-amp solenoid, on par with that ACR, I bet the price difference is less than a nice dinner out with the family.

And to me the fact that the design only accounts for **one charge source** is the fatal flaw, but the way some use their engines all the time, don't live on the hook for extended periods, maybe that aspect is fine for many in this forum.

psneeld 08-29-2017 04:44 PM

.....there are always other possibilities.

Also, while I respect the input from CMS, if man made it, it can fail...after 1000 years or new out of the box.

You arent dealing with wannabe, almost boaters and cruisers with FF and me....while combiners are a nice setup...they are not lightyears better than ancient tech in this case.

I dont even use a solenoid. I use an on/off switch next to my oil dipstick so a one second turn of the switch works for me when I check the engine right after start each day.

Yep, lots of reasonable ways to skin a cat in boat systems...none are "right", only orefered by a particular owner.

sdowney717 08-29-2017 07:42 PM

Here is the relay I bought. It has worked fine since 2016 when I installed it.

https://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0...?ie=UTF8&psc=1

It never has a full cranking load running through it.
And the wire size limits the current flow. I used #4 wires about 4 foot in total length to join the two battery banks.

Looking up that part number, it is 90 amp continuous, 150 amp surge.

Quote:

Product Description
BRAND NEW HEAVY DUTY
12 VOLT UNIVERSAL CONTINUOUS DUTY SOLENOIDS
Winch Solenoid Combo from DB Electrical
Quanity of 4 Solenoids Included

4 Terminals (2 large and 2 small)

Continuous Duty Solenoid
12 Volt, 4-Terminal, Insulated Base Flat Bracket

Ratings : 90 Amps continuous - 150 Amps surge

Used On:
Golf Carts, Industrial & Marine Applications where Solenoid is to be
engaged for extended periods of time

Notes:
To replace 3-terminal solenoid, connect wire from one small terminal to mounting bracket

This universal continuous duty solenoid is used on thousands of winch and
hydraulic applications and can be used almost anywhere a continous duty solenoid is needed.
It is fully insulated which makes is adaptable to many applications.
It is guaranteed to perform equal or better than the solenoid it is replacing.

1 YEAR WARRANTY -- Don't be fooled by cheap imitations!


Seevee 08-29-2017 08:48 PM

Question....
My buddy says an inverter can take the place of all of the above, combiner or insulator or solenoid. He says to split the house battery and have at least two inputs and two outputs for the inverter.

If so, how is this wired.

john61ct 08-29-2017 10:25 PM

Inverter is a load device, converts 12V DC to 115AC like at home.

Nothing to do with the functionality of these devices.

dhays 08-29-2017 10:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seevee (Post 588179)
Question....
My buddy says an inverter can take the place of all of the above, combiner or insulator or solenoid. He says to split the house battery and have at least two inputs and two outputs for the inverter.

If so, how is this wired.



I'm not the brightest bulb, but that makes no sense to me.

Psneed, I hear what you are saying. A simple combiner switch could cheaply and easily combine the house and start batteries whenever there is a charging source. All you have to do is remember to turn the switch.

Remembering is always an issue for me so I prefer an automated solution with backup should it fail. I think it comes down to what works best for the individual. However, if an automated solution is desired, I think it pays to select a simple and robust solution.

I've used and ACR for my start battery. Now I use an Echo-Charger. In both cases they are simple and reliable.

Seevee 08-30-2017 04:47 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by john61ct (Post 588196)
Inverter is a load device, converts 12V DC to 115AC like at home.

Nothing to do with the functionality of these devices.

True, but you can get them with a built in charger, and I've been told that they can replace the isolator. Just wondering if this is true and how it would work. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but this came from a rather experience boater that has a lot of electrical knowledge.

Seevee 08-30-2017 04:50 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dhays (Post 588197)
I'm not the brightest bulb, but that makes no sense to me.

Psneed, I hear what you are saying. A simple combiner switch could cheaply and easily combine the house and start batteries whenever there is a charging source. All you have to do is remember to turn the switch.

Remembering is always an issue for me so I prefer an automated solution with backup should it fail. I think it comes down to what works best for the individual. However, if an automated solution is desired, I think it pays to select a simple and robust solution.

I've used and ACR for my start battery. Now I use an Echo-Charger. In both cases they are simple and reliable.

Dave,

What does ACR stand for?

Lou_tribal 08-30-2017 05:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seevee (Post 588234)
Dave,



What does ACR stand for?



Automatic Charging Relay

L

psneeld 08-30-2017 05:57 AM

I would like to know which inverters are set up to handle 2 separate banks that do not have some other connecting device.

Havent seen one yet but it sounds like if they do exist, I couldnt afford one.

rwidman 08-30-2017 07:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seevee (Post 588179)
Question....
My buddy says an inverter can take the place of all of the above, combiner or insulator or solenoid. He says to split the house battery and have at least two inputs and two outputs for the inverter.

If so, how is this wired.

Don't ask your buddy any more questions about electricity.

rwidman 08-30-2017 07:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Seevee (Post 588233)
True, but you can get them with a built in charger, and I've been told that they can replace the isolator. Just wondering if this is true and how it would work. Doesn't make a lot of sense to me either, but this came from a rather experience boater that has a lot of electrical knowledge.


That's still not correct.

rwidman 08-30-2017 07:17 AM

Just to clear things up, the term "battery combiner" and automatic charging relay" are descriptions of the same device, just from different manufacturers.

This is not something designed to connect two batteries together to start the engine, it is a device to connect them together for charging.

If you want a way to connect both batteries together for emergency engine starting, a standard battery on/off switch wired between the two would do. Or a jumper cable.

john61ct 08-30-2017 07:17 AM

No I can't think of any way for that to make sense.

For many system designs no ACR/VSR is needed anyway, but nothing to do with any style of inverter or combi unit.


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