Broken raw water fitting and...engine won't stop?

[firstbase]

Finished flush the RW side of my Ford Lehman SP 135 starboard engine tonight. Put it all back together and started the engine to flush it out. After a few minutes checked the engine room and a found a big leak coming out of a fitting, see below pic. This fitting is after the trans cooler. Hose goes from the end of the trans cooler to this and then off to wherever it goes to (not too knowledgeable yet!). Simple three way copper..elbow.. I guess you call it. Can't find the part in the engine manual. Need to replace of course and if the starboard one went how far behind can the one on the port engine be? I guess American diesel will know what it is.

BUT....when I saw the leak I went to shut down the engine and it wouldn't stop. Never had that before. No way are these two associated. I mean could the water leak have gotten the stop solenoid wet or something? I pushed the stop cable or whatever you call THAT and it shut down but....clueless on this. Any comments on the elbow piece below of the non-stopping appreciated!

 

[Lou_tribal]

Looks like a copper T fitting with 3/4 and 1/2 connections. Guess that you could find something to replace it at your preferred store ( am not an expert just comment the picture). For the non stop the leak can have shorten your solenoid.

L.

 

[firstbase]

OK, I will go ahead and post my "findings" even though any self respecting male trawler owner would make some story up and exit out of the conversation. But...in an effort to make those newbs coming in the future feel just a little better....I remembered that I left the AC on tonight so I went back down to the boat. Little rested and calmer. Turned on the lights and looked at the panel and the Stop Solonoid breaker was OFF. It's never off. Always ON. I think in my got-a-leak mini panic I was flipping the POWER switch when I was trying to stop the engine not the Solenoid. In my defense it had gotten dark when I was in the engine room finishing up so I didn't have any lights on at the time. Anyway, newbs of the future...enjoy!

On the copper elbow, it would appear to be a rather simple part and as you described. Don't know if the two different size connections would be an issue at a plumbing store. Probably take me longer to try to find one locally that it would to just call American Diesel and order it. Can't be much savings buying elsewhere and I would prefer to take my business to AD, even if it is little things, because they are so friggin awesome on advice and support. For the record future newbs, the two offshoots go to the exhaust and to the shaft bearing. Figured that out all by myself.

 

[Xsbank]

That copper thing looks buckshee - I'll bet it was a basement fix. I agree with the comments on American Diesel. Why is there copper in there anyway? Should at least be bronze or 316.

 

[what_barnacles]

Just a thought but why use a panel breaker for the stop solenoid?

Mine is wired so the 12v to control the motor comes from the 12v batt conection to the starting solenoid. The 12v wire is passed through a 25 amp (switchable) breaker mounted alongside the starting solenoid. It is run u[p top the engine panel on the dash and is used for powering the keyswitch and the stop and start buttons.

I do not use house power to run the engine.

 

[firstbase]

I need to remember that the panel switches aren't breakers as I said above but only switches. I guess I just think breaker for some reason. There is a switch on the panel for the Stop Solenoid. Why it is there or set up as compared to yours I haven't a clue...! My engines are on their own batteries and house is house. I have a combiner and inverter. I know what the inverter does but do not understand the combiner. Owned the boat for 4 months and still getting up to speed on some things. Well, everything.

 

[firstbase]

That copper thing looks buckshee - I'll bet it was a basement fix. I agree with the comments on American Diesel. Why is there copper in there anyway? Should at least be bronze or 316.

It does look a little weak sauce (I guess another term for "buckshee"?) Pretty thin and doesn't appear to be much of a solder joint holding the smaller connection to the main body. At least it went kaput while I was in the slip and not out and about. Having that happen and then upgrading both of them as a result is a pretty big win for me.

 

[C lectric]

I seriously doubt that fitting is a purchased as is fitting. Looks like someone soldered a piece of copper tube into the side of a copper elbow.
Hack job.
That copper house fitting should not be there.
Get a proper BRONZE fitting . A tee and a couple hose nipples of appropriate sizes should last many years.
May need to use an elbow and the a tee to get the exrta connection

Do not use brass either.

 

[FF]

"I need to remember that the panel switches aren't breakers as I said above but only switches."

That depends on who assembled the panel, some switches are CB , some are not.

Usually the CB switch is chosen to reduce wiring .

 

[rwidman]

Copper has no place in salt water. It will fail. Replace any copper in the raw water circuit with bronze or the appropriate hose.


As for a switch for the stop solenoid, that makes no sense. There's already a switch (the one you operate to shut down the engine).

 

[psneeld]

My guess if it came out of the tranny cooler on its way to the injection elbow, the small part that broke off feeds the stuffing box

If so, it is nothing special....a simple tee fitting with a reducer in the middle so all ends match the hose sizes is all you need.

Very likely the tranny cooler is only a copper alloy, so thinking a bronze fitting would be nice, but in reality even OEM parts dont often meet TF idesls.

American Diesel may have them and may charge something reasonable or not.....as long as you know what the part is.....it may be worth a trip to the hardware store.

 

[firstbase]

Here it is installed on the port engine. I can't find any bronze fittings that are a 90 degree elbow with a connection coming off like this one does. I could see how two parts could be put in line I guess, a 90 and a T for the shaft bearing hose between it and the cooler. Need to shorten the hose coming off the cooler I guess?

On the stop solenoid, I didn't really understand why there is an on/off switch and then a button to stop the engine but...who am I to question? When would I need the solenoid to be off?

 

[rwidman]

Copper doesn't read web forums so it doesn't know that it shouldn't fail. It will fail and you have the evidence.


I would look for the original bronze part first. Next, I would go to a large, well stocked plumbing supply store (not a home center). As a last resort, I would look for a way to make up the fitting from stock bronze fittings.


You have two engines. What is on the other one?

 

[firstbase]

Same thing is on the other engine. As shown in my picture. The fitting is 1" with 5/8 " connection for shaft bearing hose.

 

[psneeld]

Straight from American Diesel website....... part numbers.....

822-0232* Lehman 135* Exchanger*(copper)*
822-0239 Lehman 120* Exchanger*(CuNi)
822-0242* Lehman* 90** Exchanger*(copper)
822-0240* Lehman* 90** Exchanger (CuNi * * *

Oil Coolers*The most critical oil cooler on your Lehman engine is the Borg Warner transmission cooler. When it develops a leak, seawater will fill the Warner gear, requiring the transmission to be taken apart for proper cleaning and re sealing. Suggested replacement time is at1200 hours.Transmission Oil Coolers822-0207* Oil cooler, (copper) SP90 &*135
822-0212* Oil cooler, (CuNi) SP90 & 135
822-3212* Oil cooler, (CuNi w/zinc) SP90&135

But back to the problems...

I dont have a 135 so I am not familiar with the actual hose runs but running at trawlers sperds, the water injection to the stuffing box isnt usually a whole lot.

In this case, if that is the part, and it is isolated frpm everything by rubber hose....you could use stainless if you felt that brass fittings were inadequate. Remember, most times this fitting is not full of seawatervbecause it drains and is under very low pressure.

As far as the stop solenoid, mine is just rigged for power from the ignition switch and grounded on the block. There are the stop buttons on the 2 steering stations next to the start buttons, but no other switches or cbs or fuses.

 

[HopCar]

I don't think the copper failed, the solder joint failed. Probably after thousand hours of vibration. I've never seen a fitting like that so I think it was fabricated.

If I was going to make one, I'd get a 1" bronze elbow, drill and tap a 1/2" npt hole in the side, and screw in appropriate hose barbs. Groco makes a 1/2" npt to 5/8" hose barb.

Not a lot of meat for threads in the side of the elbow so you might want to solder the joint as well.

 

[psneeld]

Try these guys if all else fails, bet they are pricey.

But with all the anti copper comments, and you believe them, these guys sell cupro nickel
... often considered the best material for that application, though pretty much plastic to anything would work for years just fine.

http://www.mmengineering.net/cuni-9010-parts/

The ad was in last months Pro Boat Builder magazine.

 

[Xsbank]

The problem with copper is it is usually very thin-walled and in this case, fabricated. If you buy a stainless or bronze fitting it will be cast or welded, not soldered. Doesn't anyone see the difference? Besides, copper is usually soldered with either lead solder or a newer substitute but it is still two metals in a saltwater bath. What could possibly go wrong? Copper has no place in a critical system like cooling, solder joints dont like to be vibrated much.

Besides, why is everyone running salt water through an oil cooler? Masochism?

 

[rwidman]

Same thing is on the other engine. As shown in my picture. The fitting is 1" with 5/8 " connection for shaft bearing hose.

That doesn't look like a reducing fitting, it looks like someone drilled a hole in a 90 degree elbow and soldered a straight piece of copper tubing in the hole. I wouldn't put that in my house, much less a boat with salt water flowing through it.

 

[rwidman]

....... Besides, why is everyone running salt water through an oil cooler? Masochism?

What else are you going to run through it? The engine coolant will be ar 180 degrees. That's not going to do much cooling.

 

[rwidman]

I don't think the copper failed, the solder joint failed. Probably after thousand hours of vibration. I've never seen a fitting like that so I think it was fabricated.

If I was going to make one, I'd get a 1" bronze elbow, drill and tap a 1/2" npt hole in the side, and screw in appropriate hose barbs. Groco makes a 1/2" npt to 5/8" hose barb.

Not a lot of meat for threads in the side of the elbow so you might want to solder the joint as well.

That's what I would suggest except I would have it brazed.

If there's room, a standard elbow followed by a standard reducing "T" would work and could be made up of bronze. The "T" can be close or anywhere in the hose.

 

[TDunn]

Buy a bronze "T" (even West Marine sells them) and install appropriate hose barbs. Should cost no more than about $25 all together. Easy fix.

 

[Xsbank]

Wes, my boat, and millions of others, are keel cooled. My coolers are cooled by coolant. Cummins has no problem with that. If you read the label on your transmission it will give the operating temperature parameters, low and high, 180 degrees is well within that happy spectrum.

I would run salt through the primary cooler then directly to your stuffing box and your exhaust. Run coolant through the oil coolers. Then you only have one cooler to service regularly, the others will live forever and your engine/transmission will never be flooded by salt if the cooler fails. You wont even have to put zincs in the oil coolers (can't remember if there are any now).

Brazing is exactly the same problem as soldering, maybe even worse - two kinds of metals in a saltwater bath. Brazing even has zinc in it, which will deteriorate and make the brazing joint fragile.

I am not reinventing the wheel here, this stuff should be fundamental.

TDunn, that's exactly correct.

 

[High Wire]

You could easily use a tee and reducer instead of that fitting. New hoses may be needed.
Making a new fitting (plus a spare) out of copper is a 30 minute job. Maybe it will only last 20 years instead of 30.

 

[rwidman]

Buy a bronze "T" (even West Marine sells them) and install appropriate hose barbs. Should cost no more than about $25 all together. Easy fix.

Yes, that may be the best solution. The "T" will function as a 90 and the other end can be adapted down to the correct size.

 

[firstbase]

I spoke with Brian at Amer. Diesel. Went something like this... "Not an American Diesel part, was put in by the manufacturer or someone else. Please don't tell me you have one of those unbonded copper elbow deals that is a disaster waiting to happen and will flood the boat when it gives way if you aren't looking". Um...well...yes that seems to be pretty close to what I have. I think his last word was "Ugh". His suggestion, which I didn't understand really, was to connect the cooler straight to the exhaust elbow and have a fitting somewhere, not sure where, come off for the shaft cooling hose. He said he would send me a picture to explain. In between that and everyone's suggestions above I'm sure I can figure it out...pretty sure.

 

[angus99]

First base, this is what my boat has. The black hose comes off the cooler, passes though a bronze tee which feeds the shaft log (blue hose). Then it goes though the vented loop at the top to prevent siphoning and back to the injection elbow. The "clear" hose directs anything coming out of the loop back to the muffler and breaks the siphon.

 

[ranger58sb]

Besides, why is everyone running salt water through an oil cooler? Masochism?

I suspect it's not uncommon. And I'd guess the end user doesn't get the first vote.

For instance, our raw water flow goes through a fuel cooler, aftercooler, gear oil cooler... before getting to the heat exchanger...

And there's a smaller line from the raw water pump that goes to the dripless shaft seal...

Nobody asked me my opinion.



The bronze "T" and follow-on hose barbs seems like an easy fix...

-Chris

 

[firstbase]

Seems the simplest fix would be a bronze or stainless 1" hose to hose T fitting with a 5/8" adapter. I'll be darned if I can find a 1" T though. I can find hose to pipe, pipe to pipe and all kinds of reducers but no simple 1". Has to be out there but I am working under pressure and may be missing the easy stuff. Wife is glaring at me and reminding me grandkids are coming this weekend.

 

[Xsbank]

Industrial shop like Acklands or Harbour Freight. Ask the Admiral to have a nap...