I'm getting my mojo back

[Wxx3]

Just finished changing the engine fuel filters. First change since Miami??

Looks crappy. It was half water, half fuel.
Makes me realize that someone was asking the question about longevity of engines.

I realize that I don't need an engine that will outlast me, I need a engine that won't quit on me.




And that's a big issue as engines get ever more efficient, with turbos and all sorts of things, you are giving up something.

Nothing comes for free.

And on another note. Crew

I finally figured out what my point I was trying to make in a not very articulated way.

Even getting past the point of finding competent crew, but there's more to it.

Julie and I had looked for people for even the first leg of the trip. Many were enthusiastic and then disappeared as the time got near. Finally we accepted that it would be just the two of us. And then, just days before departure, one of the people I really liked contacted me.

Julie and I talked it over and we realised we were excited to do it ourselves. That adding a third person would change the atmosphere too much.

And then while waiting for weather in the Azores, I was really hopeful for this one guy, but then he couldn't get away from work.

I'm sure he would have been very good, but for me, even though my first choice was to have him, I understood that not having him, being solo, still had some positives.

The number one being that I did not have to worry about someone else, whether it was their safety, their happiness or just having the desire to land here versus there.

I've always known that in this case, this is my weakness, catering to others, far beyond what is reasonable or even expected.

So that's what I was trying to get across.

I love my Lehman AND the Krogen.
They both got me here and they would have done the same for all of YOU.

It's Guinness time.

 

[bayview]

Didn't you change filters in mid passage from Azores?

 

[psneeld]

One thing about competent crew...is if they are more captain than crew...and the shi* hits the fan...some BAD things can happen between folk.

Takes the right chemistry in a lot of ways. I saw it all the time in military flying. The combination of rank, experience and designation for 2 different people had to sync up or it was constant tension.

I think that's why so many after singlehandling...won't do it any other way....especially in slow boats..more time to think about things and dwell on them.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Didn't you change filters in mid passage from Azores?

I think he's saying he had not changed the ENGINE mounted filters since he was in Miami and before the crossing.

If true -

 

[hollywood8118]

Just finished changing the engine fuel filters. First change since Miami??

Looks crappy. It was half water, half fuel.
Makes me realize that someone was asking the question about longevity of engines.

I realize that I don't need an engine that will outlast me, I need a engine that won't quit on me.


View attachment 32787

And that's a big issue as engines get ever more efficient, with turbos and all sorts of things, you are giving up something.

Nothing comes for free.

And on another note. Crew

I finally figured out what my point I was trying to make in a not very articulated way.

Even getting past the point of finding competent crew, but there's more to it.

Julie and I had looked for people for even the first leg of the trip. Many were enthusiastic and then disappeared as the time got near. Finally we accepted that it would be just the two of us. And then, just days before departure, one of the people I really liked contacted me.

Julie and I talked it over and we realised we were excited to do it ourselves. That adding a third person would change the atmosphere too much.

And then while waiting for weather in the Azores, I was really hopeful for this one guy, but then he couldn't get away from work.

I'm sure he would have been very good, but for me, even though my first choice was to have him, I understood that not having him, being solo, still had some positives.

The number one being that I did not have to worry about someone else, whether it was their safety, their happiness or just having the desire to land here versus there.

I've always known that in this case, this is my weakness, catering to others, far beyond what is reasonable or even expected.

So that's what I was trying to get across.

I love my Lehman AND the Krogen.
They both got me here and they would have done the same for all of YOU.

It's Guinness time.

Great Post!

And on the filters... holy crap that is a lot of goo.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Rustybarge]

Great Post!

And on the filters... holy crap that is a lot of goo.
HOLLYWOOD

My feeling is every LRC that depends on the engines staying running should have a day tank.

Say you're burning 2gal/ hr, then a 60 gal day tank mounted separately from the mains would make sense; only clean filtered and polished diesel would be pumped into this tank, so whatever muck is in your main tanks doesn't matter as you will know for certain you have a least 24hrs clean running.

This way you have plenty of time to clean out and filter any water or muck in the main tanks without it getting into the engine filters and stopping the engine.

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Just finished changing the engine fuel filters. First change since Miami??

Looks crappy. It was half water, half fuel.
Makes me realize that someone was asking the question about longevity of engines.

I realize that I don't need an engine that will outlast me, I need a engine that won't quit on me.

And that's a big issue as engines get ever more efficient, with turbos and all sorts of things, you are giving up something.

Nothing comes for free.m

I'm trying to understand what you're saying here. Are you saying you think water was in the fuel getting past the filters and your Lehman was running along happily on that? And that a modern engine would have stopped?

 

[Ski in NC]

Yea, where was that gunk? In racor's or secondaries? Or is there three step filtration. Or was that in the fuel polisher filters, no huge deal there..

 

[Animal]

Takes the right chemistry in a lot of ways. I saw it all the time in military flying. The combination of rank, experience and designation for 2 different people had to sync up or it was constant tension.

I think that's why so many after singlehandling...won't do it any other way.....

As a former WSO, that's how I'd always explain a two seat fighter to a single seat fighter driver. When Pilot and WSO are complimentary and mesh well, it's an unbeatable combination with far greater throughput. When there isn't good crew coordination, the jet would be better off with single occupancy. The single seat guys would only shake their craniums and swear they'd never risk the joy of solitude with the chances of not meshing well with a WSO.

Likely an apt analogy here for sure.

 

[Wxx3]

Didn't you change filters in mid passage from Azores?

That was from the engine mounted filters.
One Baldwin, one Fram.
Replaced by two Frams.

Hadn't changed them since Miami???
I've always kept the Racors good so I wouldn't have to mess with them.

 

[Wxx3]

My feeling is every LRC that depends on the engines staying running should have a day tank.

Say you're burning 2gal/ hr, then a 60 gal day tank mounted separately from the mains would make sense; only clean filtered and polished diesel would be pumped into this tank, so whatever muck is in your main tanks doesn't matter as you will know for certain you have a least 24hrs clean running.

This way you have plenty of time to clean out and filter any water or muck in the main tanks without it getting into the engine filters and stopping the engine.

I agree. The problem is that I'm running out of room AND I do worry about adding another point of failure to the system that has been working very well.

 

[Wxx3]

As a former WSO, that's how I'd always explain a two seat fighter to a single seat fighter driver. When Pilot and WSO are complimentary and mesh well, it's an unbeatable combination with far greater throughput. When there isn't good crew coordination, the jet would be better off with single occupancy. The single seat guys would only shake their craniums and swear they'd never risk the joy of solitude with the chances of not meshing well with a WSO.

Likely an apt analogy here for sure.

The GIB made far more of a difference then the AF wanted to let on.

It was about $$$ and that money then went into equipment they didn't need.
But people got promoted and manufacturers made money.

 

[Wxx3]

As a former WSO, that's how I'd always explain a two seat fighter to a single seat fighter driver. When Pilot and WSO are complimentary and mesh well, it's an unbeatable combination with far greater throughput. When there isn't good crew coordination, the jet would be better off with single occupancy. The single seat guys would only shake their craniums and swear they'd never risk the joy of solitude with the chances of not meshing well with a WSO.

Likely an apt analogy here for sure.

Now I see why I understand you.

 

[Rustybarge]

I agree. The problem is that I'm running out of room AND I do worry about adding another point of failure to the system that has been working very well.

How about locating the day tank just behind the pilot house up on the aft deck; gravity feed to the engine means you won't need the engine mounted lift pump as the day tank will only have a small quantity of clean fuel in it. You could make it out of clear see through Perspex or tempered glass or other impervious material to diesel, you would be able to spot any problems before they develop.

PS: the fuel in the day tank would be filtered down to the same purity as the engine normally gets; this means any blocks that happen when you filtering and polishing the main tanks won't stop your engine....you'll have a 24 hour buffer to sort out the problem.

 

[Wxx3]

Yea, where was that gunk? In racor's or secondaries? Or is there three step filtration. Or was that in the fuel polisher filters, no huge deal there..

I clarified above.
But let me add that this is exactly what I was getting out of the Racors once I started using the Horta fuel.

So, I'm satisfied they they were ok before.
Also, they have caused some issues, so we just try to give each other space. They don't stop the engine. I leave them alone.

I was prepared to change them underway if need be.

 

[Rustybarge]

Whatever about the crew, you are seriously screwed if you engine stops; you'll only get a few chances at a restart before your battery is dead.

So....

I'd make sure the diesel had a mechanical fuel cutoff so the engine will keep on running even without power.

I'd keep fully filtered fuel in a separate tank which is not connected directly to the main tank; this fuel will not need further filtering to keep the engine running.

I would have a totally separate main tanks, then you can polish it and filter it, strain it through muslin if necessary to get it clean in an emergency if the you've loaded on contaminated diesel.

...otherwise your filters may get blocked and STOP your engine!!!

NB: there's no filter between the day tank and the engine.

 

[Wxx3]

Rusty Barge

Check out a Krogen. It's pretty much set up as you describe only no day tank.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that in spite of the water in fuel, the sea state, blah, blah, blah
The system acted as it was designed.

To many folks continually seek perfect solutions.

Including our President. Thinking and doing must be balanced, otherwise it's just mental masturbation (an old AF term)

 

[Animal]

The GIB made far more of a difference then the AF wanted to let on.

It was about $$$ and that money then went into equipment they didn't need.
But people got promoted and manufacturers made money.

There are still two damn fine two seat fighters in production stateside, but I'm understandably jaded!

Now I see why I understand you.

"I see!" said the blind man, and he picked up his hammer and Saw!

 

[psneeld]

how true...boats can be set up for different people, uses, cruising styles, etc..

plus just about every idea has variations depending whether people consider redundancy necessary or just another failure point unless it can be done as a COMPLETE redundant system/operation.

We all have likes and dislikes beyond even trust/trust nots...so many systems are designed around personalities as much as what some people believe to be "facts" or "absolutes"...and rarely do those exist when planning a boat, it's systems and a voyage...

 

[FlyWright]

Having a qualified and capable second crew member almost always improves safety. Professional flight crews are probably at the top of the food chain when it comes to "qualified and capable" crewmembers. Crew Resource Management (CRM) training emphasizes the need for clear and open lines of 2-way communication to enhance safety and gaining a synergistic effect.

It's hard to draw a direct benefits comparisons between professional flight crews and picking up an additional inexperienced or unknown crewmember for a trip across the ocean. I can see where having an unknown or inexperienced person onboard could very easily become a real deficit and safety concern.

Given my druthers, I'druther have an experienced, known crewmember assisting on a crossing like this one. Obviously, that's not always possible and waiting until later in the season would have opened up a whole new set of risks and perils. Seems to me like Richard and Julie handled it right for their circumstances.

 

[Rustybarge]

Rusty Barge

Check out a Krogen. It's pretty much set up as you describe only no day tank.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that in spite of the water in fuel, the sea state, blah, blah, blah
The system acted as it was designed.

To many folks continually seek perfect solutions.

Including our President. Thinking and doing must be balanced, otherwise it's just mental masturbation (an old AF term)

I used to fly a single engined aircraft over the Irish Sea; two magnetos, mechanical lift pump and electrical boost pump, two separate switchable tanks: but the most important feature was fuel drains in the bottom of the tanks. Before every flight you drain off the water into a clear bottle to see how much is in the tank. If the engine quits you are as good as dead after 30 mins in the water, that's if you survive the belly flop landing into the sea.

At least In a boat you don't die of thirst for several days....:lol:

 

[hollywood8118]

Richard,

Do your Racor (primary) filters have water sensors.. and did they go off when you had water in them ( I know the pic was from the secondary on the engine ) ?

I know Racor's as designed will hold a fair amount of water before parring it down stream to the engine.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Rusty Barge

Check out a Krogen. It's pretty much set up as you describe only no day tank.

Everyone needs to keep in mind that in spite of the water in fuel, the sea state, blah, blah, blah
The system acted as it was designed.

To many folks continually seek perfect solutions.

It's not about seeking perfection. Far from it. It's about using common sense.

And common sense should tell you that you change ALL your fuel filters before heading out on any long trip unless you've just changed them very recently. Especially if you're crossing an ocean. And even more so if you're running a single screw vessel. That is cruising/mechanics 101 in my book.

Since you didn't change those filters before you crossed you have no idea how much or how long that water was in those filters when you started. And if that water had gotten past those final filters, things would have gotten very interesting very fast. Old school Lehman or not.

 

[kulas44]

I have two 25 gallon feed tanks (1 for each engine) in my trawler. They are under seats in the mid saloon. Gravity feed to each engine, valved to supply both from either one, but designed to be completely separate. two 400 gallon "bulk tanks" feed two 125 gallon "holding" tanks. The bulk tanks are the only tanks that get new fuel. Its filtered and passed to the holding tanks and filtered again on its way to the "burn" tanks. I can clean 250 gallons to have on the ready. Every tank has large access plates into each chamber and are easy to clean. I dont like Racor filters, not the filter itself but the filter canisters, its a very poor design in my opinion. I prefer the Davco filter setup. Its far superior to even the Racor 1000. I have 3 sets of SeaPro dual filter units, One for each engine (after the burn tank) and one befor the transfer pumps (12 volt and 120 volt gear rotor type). The 120 pump is mostly used for circulating/moving/cleaning fuel. It seems complicated but is basically simple. It does take up a lot of space. But like sail inventory on a sailboat, if thats what moves you then you need to make room for it.

 

[Capecodder]

I'm a full time crusier, my boat is my home, currently sitting in New England with winter coming on soon. I have been stressing and worrying about the trip down the ICW to Florida alone. Thank you, Dauntless for putting in words what I have been thinking.

"The number one being that I did not have to worry about someone else, whether it was their safety, their happiness or just having the desire to land here versus there.

I've always known that in this case, this is my weakness, catering to others, far beyond what is reasonable or even expected.

So that's what I was trying to get across.

I love my Lehman AND the Krogen.
They both got me here and they would have done the same for all of YOU."

I have a Lehman and will only be a mostly few hundred feet from land on the ICW and can toss the hook each night, not crossing the Atlantic.

 

[Rustybarge]

I have two 25 gallon feed tanks (1 for each engine) in my trawler. They are under seats in the mid saloon. Gravity feed to each engine, valved to supply both from either one, but designed to be completely separate. two 400 gallon "bulk tanks" feed two 125 gallon "holding" tanks. The bulk tanks are the only tanks that get new fuel. Its filtered and passed to the holding tanks and filtered again on its way to the "burn" tanks. I can clean 250 gallons to have on the ready. Every tank has large access plates into each chamber and are easy to clean. I dont like Racor filters, not the filter itself but the filter canisters, its a very poor design in my opinion. I prefer the Davco filter setup. Its far superior to even the Racor 1000. I have 3 sets of SeaPro dual filter units, One for each engine (after the burn tank) and one befor the transfer pumps (12 volt and 120 volt gear rotor type). The 120 pump is mostly used for circulating/moving/cleaning fuel. It seems complicated but is basically simple. It does take up a lot of space. But like sail inventory on a sailboat, if thats what moves you then you need to make room for it.

Sounds like a sensible set up.
sucking dirty fuel from main tank directly to the engine through filters that can block sounds dangerous on a sea passage with only one engine.

Even a mini-day tank with say 4 gals would give you a couple of hours running, enough time to unblock the system and change the filters without stopping the engine.

It's not rocket science having a separate clean fuel tank.

 

[Ski in NC]

Or just have two tanks that have a proper sump so nothing can grow in them. That is my strategy. After 2000hrs, look down into bottom of tank and still shiny aluminum.

 

[kulas44]

A bad load of fuel will still shut you down. It will happen at the worst possible time, in the worst weather, on a lee shore, with huge rocks and bigger breakers. A small tank above the engine full of positively clean fuel is worth it weight in (you pick) at that time. Single handed and single engined makes it even more important. I do agree with the old saying "better lucky than good" and the better I prepare the luckier I get !!!!

 

[Capt.Bill11]

Richard,

Do your Racor (primary) filters have water sensors.. and did they go off when you had water in them ( I know the pic was from the secondary on the engine ) ?

I know Racor's as designed will hold a fair amount of water before parring it down stream to the engine.
HOLLYWOOD

The water probes and alarms are money well spent in my opinion. And more worth whiled than the vacuum gauges as well.

Based on what was found in the secondaries, those Racors had at some point gone passed there water retaining capacity and let water get through to the engine filters. As this case shows, anytime you a find significant amount of water in your first set of filters you have to suspect it's gotten down stream and act accordingly. Which in this case would have been to drain fuel out of the bottom of the engine filters into a clear glass or plastic jar / tub while the engine was running.

It would be interesting to know if the water in the fuel is fresh or salt. It may have been coming in from the deck fittings or vent lines in the rough weather and the fuel bought in Horta was uncontaminated. All you have to do is let it settle out and then taste it to tell in most cases.

 

[Wxx3]

Thanks all,

I'm not disagreeing with you, but I think you are also not listening very well.

I will add water sensors to the Racors. They have the hole for them and I would have caught it sooner.

It was salt water. I tasted it.

Probably won't do anything else.

Again, EVERYTHING on the boat could be better, newer, have more redundancy. In fact, why not just hire a crew to do it all.
Wait, why not just go on someone else's boat?

Dauntless has gone over 11,000 miles, 2000 engine hours and 4,000 gallons of fuel, without the engine ever stopping without human intervention.
Think what that means.

For better or for worse, this is the system I like and can afford.

Nuff said