Upgrade to inverter/charger system Victron??

[captks]

I have two victron 12/3000 two bmv-700s (batt banks) and a solar mppt 75tr with a color gx. The system just works. The GX gives me my flows both from AC side as well as DC. There are settings that let the gx know you have solar attached so the production will not be wasted (since inverters will want to charge the batts as well).
It does have a connected feature VRM that allows complete monitoring of your entire system through internet as well. Never had an issue with it.

 

[FIRE]

Just watched an great video on upgrading to the Victron system from an extremely well informed cruiser. He upgraded his inverter and batteries. Look on YOUTUBE under ElliYacht. Excellent videos all around.

 

[CarlF]

I've had Victron Multi 3000's for over 10 years on two boats. I would buy another. A few comments:

- I'm "old school" and suspicious of automatic control. It only takes a second to switch something on and off at the panel. I don't need pretty colored graphics of where the electricity is going.

- They now have a 5 year warranty. Unheard of in marine electrical stuff.

- The Multi 3000 has been around for a decade. Very reliable and quite cheap ($1300). Conservative ratings. It can do 6000 watts momentarily for something like A/C motor startup surge.

- There's no way my 800ah Firefly batteries could be charged too fast by the alternator plus the Victron multi. And remember, about 50 amps is probably going to things on the boat. As the batteries reach absorption the amps automatically drop from both the Victron and the alternator with no intelligence between them.

- Be sure to use the included battery temp sensor so the charger is temperature compensated. Also, connect the voltage sensing wire for the charger directly to the batteries so it's getting a true voltage.

- I have Victron solar controllers on 600watts of solar panel. They work fine but I don't feel the need to "integrate" them with the charger/inverter. They rarely get above 30 amps so really don't impact what I'm doing with the other charging sources. I love the little bluetooth app that tells me how much solar I've gotten each day - but probably only look at it four times a year

- Programming the Victron is easy if you use the free software you can download on a laptop. I have one of the network plugs at the helm. I just plug in the laptop and tweak it (but frankly after setup, I probably only do this one a year).

- You are handling a lot of power so cables should be large. Don't skimp on cabling any 3000 watt inverter.

- The Victron has a ground relay that automatically switches the ground between genset and shore. This is really important at marinas that are upgrading their docks to ELCI breakers.

- Definitely get the remote panel. A knob let's you set the max amps from the AC source. In a marina I always turn this to 40 amps because I don't want to risk popping a marina breaker. Even on the genset, I use this to keep the genset below 80%. If the Victron hits 40 amps it will simply draw what it needs from the batteries. I won't know the difference.

- I have a 2nd Victron Multi for redundancy but did not wire them in parallel. They are completely independent. They can both charge (so 220 amps combined) but only one at a time can be an inverter. Frankly I try to limit the inverter draw to 15 amps by not running the microwave at the same moment as the toaster - easier on the batteries. I don't program this in the inverter but the AC out goes to a pair of breakers with lockout so only one can be turned on.

But really reliability is the most important thing to me. On the current boat the Victron has been on most of the time for six years with no repairs or problems.

 

[Joe Pica]

I've had Victron inverter chargers (2X 12/120 multipluses) for 14 years. They have greatly expanded service and tech support. I have been very please with them and the crazy flexibility they offer. You can select the hz you want in the configurations program. The note about temperatures is spot on. All inverters lose capacity as temperature increases and have a failure point if overheated. Victron's operating temp have a greater tolerance that Magnums but will still will overheat in a hot engine room. I rigged custom blowers to cool them in the event they show overheat and that helped. Best solution is to not put them in the engine room if possible. Magnum use to specifically prohibit mounting them in the engine room.

 

[Nepidae]

Victron products

We have a Xantrex SW3012 charger/inverter & have had it for about 8yrs.

Finally got it installed properly in '16. Previous installations included being backfed blowing a board and needing SERVICE (3 times). Xantrex fixed the unit and returned it free. The next to the last install required us to throw a switch to turn it on when on the hook.

Currently, done in '16, we don't know if we are on the inverter or shore power, unless we are at anchor. We've lost power several times on shore power and never knew we were on battery. Recently while having solar panels installed I had an LED light put at the lower helm station, routed thru the ELCI that if the light goes out we've lost shore power.

Having the Xantrex solar panels installed I also had a Victron 150/60 MPPT and a BVM battery gauge put in. Both are smart gauges which means I can check on their activity on my phone (bluetooth).

So far everything has been playing well together.

The solar panels are connected directly to the batteries. The MPPT has been controlling which does what when. Moving to an anchorage, with full batteries from shore power the panels were dormant. Once we cut the engines (we have Balmar alternator 150A, 614 regulators, duo-chargers, 2 ea, and a centerfielder) The solar kicked in and from @ 1230hrs to 1700hrs the panels have generated 1.14kWh. The BMV says we are at 100% SOC and BATTS are at 13.01V.

We have a house bank of 6-L16 AGM BATTS which gives us 1200Ah (600+ useable).

I think 1 of the things that are very important is SERVICE. Xantrex serviced the SW3012 to the extent that when I need to buy another C/I, it will be a Xantrex.

I think if you check they probably will charge Li batts.

Any manufacturer can have problems, so it's how they solve those problems that makes them a company to do business with.

Any questions let me know.

Stay safe & healthy out there.

 

[Joe Pica]

Charles, no longer an issue. Three years ago I had both my units 12/3000 Victron Multipluses serviced(cleaned up, gone over, cooling fans replaced(not needed my choice) when one unit had a failed transfer relay. I sent them to Mobile Power in Hackettstown, New Jersey ph. 800-433-0781 just one of several authorized Victron distributor warranty service centers in the USA. Even though well out of warranty the parts were free. Victron has also been training installer technicians throughout the country for their Distributors. They request you call yours to get support or repairs. If you don't know enter the serial number which will source the seller/distributor.

 

[ksanders]

Here is an update.

I ordered the rest of my new system. Here are the components.

Two Victron Multiplus inverter/chargers. These will be run in parallel creating a 240 amp charging system and way more inverter capability than I’ll ever need at 6,000 watts. I only bought two to double the battery charging capability and add a level of redundancy. (yes I will need to re-configure if one fails. This takes about 5 minutes using my laptop and the installed software)

BMV-712 GX Battery monitor

CERBO GX controller with 5” touch screen.

This setup has the capability fully utilize my batteries 200 amps of acceptance currrent during bulk phase. This will reduce my generator run time by about 50% while on the hook as I generally start the generator at 50% SOC and turn it off at about 85% SOC which is the bulk phase charging range.

When the main engine is running a signal will reduce the charge capability to 100 amps so that my engine alternator will not over-current the batteries if the generator is running.

The two inverter/chargers will be powered from separate panels on my boat which are powered by separate shore power connections. That will eliminate the risk of tripping a single 30A shore power connection.

The system will use power assist so that if the inverter loads exceed my shore power capability the batteries will help provide energy, again eliminating a inadvertent shore power trip.

When I add solar panels the system will work with the solar charge controllers to prioritize solar energy, which will reduce my harbor electrical charges.

Thanks for all the help! The equipment is on order and I will posty probably next week when I get it installed.

 

[twistedtree]

The two inverter/chargers will be powered from separate panels on my boat which are powered by separate shore power connections. That will eliminate the risk of tripping a single 30A shore power connection.

Kevin, I think this is an issue. If the inverters are wired in parallel, i.e. the outputs are paralleled, then I think the inputs need to be paralleled too, i.e. connected to a single AC power source.


If the power sources are different, when the inverter switches to pass through, it will short the two inputs together which would not be good. Or perhaps more likely, it will never go into pass through (or charge mode).


I think if you want to run the two inverters with separate AC inputs, then I think the outputs need to be separate too.


Or maybe you have figured a way around this, in which case I'd love to hear about it.

 

[ksanders]

Kevin, I think this is an issue. If the inverters are wired in parallel, i.e. the outputs are paralleled, then I think the inputs need to be paralleled too, i.e. connected to a single AC power source.


If the power sources are different, when the inverter switches to pass through, it will short the two inputs together which would not be good. Or perhaps more likely, it will never go into pass through (or charge mode).


I think if you want to run the two inverters with separate AC inputs, then I think the outputs need to be separate too.


Or maybe you have figured a way around this, in which case I'd love to hear about it.

You are entirely correct. I had not thought through the parallel stacking function all the way. Since the two shore power connections could be 120 or 180 degrees out of phase with each other I’ll have to wire both inverters to the same shore power source. This will be through two breakers on my “shore 1” panel.

In order to avoid the potential of overloading that shore power during charging I’ll set the inverters up to limit AC current input when the shore power is connected. Theoretically I could just remember to trip one of the inverter feed breakers when on shore power but I don’t like things that require intervention to work.

Thanks again! I thought this out enough to get the units on order and was going to finalize everything once they arrived. (including thoroughly reading the stacking guide)

One feature that made me very happy was the ability to limit AC input and or DC charging output through the status of the digital inputs. Although these are not direct wire, a interposing relay makes it easy to bring the status into the system.

Since I think you are off grid as memory serves... After this project is complete and I’ve learned about the system I’ll be installing a battery bank and inverter pair in series with our backup generator at the house (a NL 8 kw). That will enable our house to go through most utility outages without the generator even starting, and eliminate the 24X7 operation during longer outages. I’ll tie the 2 wire start on the generator to a relay output to start the generator on 50% SOC or thereabouts.

 

[twistedtree]

You are entirely correct. I had not thought through the parallel stacking function all the way. Since the two shore power connections could be 120 or 180 degrees out of phase with each other I’ll have to wire both inverters to the same shore power source. This will be through two breakers on my “shore 1” panel.

In order to avoid the potential of overloading that shore power during charging I’ll set the inverters up to limit AC current input when the shore power is connected. Theoretically I could just remember to trip one of the inverter feed breakers when on shore power but I don’t like things that require intervention to work.

Thanks again! I thought this out enough to get the units on order and was going to finalize everything once they arrived. (including thoroughly reading the stacking guide)

One feature that made me very happy was the ability to limit AC input and or DC charging output through the status of the digital inputs. Although these are not direct wire, a interposing relay makes it easy to bring the status into the system.

Since I think you are off grid as memory serves... After this project is complete and I’ve learned about the system I’ll be installing a battery bank and inverter pair in series with our backup generator at the house (a NL 8 kw). That will enable our house to go through most utility outages without the generator even starting, and eliminate the 24X7 operation during longer outages. I’ll tie the 2 wire start on the generator to a relay output to start the generator on 50% SOC or thereabouts.

Another way you could do this, if you really feel that one inverter is sufficient inverter capacity, would be to use one inverter, plus a stand alone charger like a Skylla. That way they could be on different shore connections, and you would get the extra charger current you are looking for.


The backup power project sounds good, and might be a good application for a Quattro. They have two things beyond what's in a Multi that you might find useful.


First is two AC power inputs. You could wire one to the grid, and one to your generator, then the Quattro will pick whichever is available, giving priority to the grid. That should take care of all your transfer switching.


Second, the transfer relay in the Quattro is a higher current rating than the Multi. I think you might need that to allow for full grid power to be passed through the Quattro.

 

[ksanders]

Another way you could do this, if you really feel that one inverter is sufficient inverter capacity, would be to use one inverter, plus a stand alone charger like a Skylla. That way they could be on different shore connections, and you would get the extra charger current you are looking for.


The backup power project sounds good, and might be a good application for a Quattro. They have two things beyond what's in a Multi that you might find useful.


First is two AC power inputs. You could wire one to the grid, and one to your generator, then the Quattro will pick whichever is available, giving priority to the grid. That should take care of all your transfer switching.


Second, the transfer relay in the Quattro is a higher current rating than the Multi. I think you might need that to allow for full grid power to be passed through the Quattro.

Thanks, Yes The quattro with its higher capacity might be the way to go.
I’ll probably not use 2nd input transfer switch though.

The way my house/shop is currently wired I have a main ATS (ASCO 300G) at the house with a run of conductor to the garage for the generators.

At the garage I have a second ATS (ASCO 185) which chooses between the two gensets. The two gensets are set up in a preferred/non preferred arrangement and both automatically start.

My thought is to simply put the inverter in series with the NL generator, and make it the prefered backup source. If that system fails to come online the other generator will provide the backup power just like it does now.

I truly enjoy playing with this kind of stuff.

 

[twistedtree]

Thanks, Yes The quattro with its higher capacity might be the way to go.
I’ll probably not use 2nd input transfer switch though.

The way my house/shop is currently wired I have a main ATS (ASCO 300G) at the house with a run of conductor to the garage for the generators.

At the garage I have a second ATS (ASCO 185) which chooses between the two gensets. The two gensets are set up in a preferred/non preferred arrangement and both automatically start.

My thought is to simply put the inverter in series with the NL generator, and make it the prefered backup source. If that system fails to come online the other generator will provide the backup power just like it does now.

I truly enjoy playing with this kind of stuff.

Interesting approach. So when the load is switched to the NL generator, the inverter would pick up the load, then only start the generator when batteries get low. Am I follow it right? I think you would just need to give some thought to how the batteries get charged off the grid if the NL never starts, or if it doesn't run long enough for a full recharge. This might be a good fit for separate inverter and chargers. But then if the charger is powered off the grid, then how does the NL charge the batteries? So you end up with the opposite problem. Well, you have plenty of time to noodle it over and come up with a solution. And yes, this stufff is indeed fun.

 

[ksanders]

Interesting approach. So when the load is switched to the NL generator, the inverter would pick up the load, then only start the generator when batteries get low. Am I follow it right? I think you would just need to give some thought to how the batteries get charged off the grid if the NL never starts, or if it doesn't run long enough for a full recharge. This might be a good fit for separate inverter and chargers. But then if the charger is powered off the grid, then how does the NL charge the batteries? So you end up with the opposite problem. Well, you have plenty of time to noodle it over and come up with a solution. And yes, this stufff is indeed fun.

Yes, that is correct. The NL generator and the inverter would make one backup power source, with the generator running only as needed.

Recharging the batteries off of the grid becomes tricky, since we have whole property backup power with no sub panels for emergency loads. Especially since the generators are a couple hundred feet from the main house with the utility service and main ATS.

One thought is to use the “utility power available” contact from the main ATS and tie that to a second smaller battery charger that would recharge the inverter batteries only when grid power is available. Just brainstorming here but that sounds like a decent solution as that signal is already going to my automation/alarm system and it would be easy to Use that to turn on and off a battery charger.

Another solution would be to tie that same signal to a lighting contactor feeding the second input of a quattro for battery charging.

 

[ghost]

I only read a little quick research, but enough to satisfy that Twisted is likely correct that in parallel operation the units MUST feed the same dc/ac destinations(kind of the definition of parallel) and that if a phase mismatch is detected on the input(s) it ignores the power.

My NL generator has separate switches for glow plug/starter and only latches when it detects the unit running. My Victron only supports a logic switch to start, I think enough to power a relay. So when I looked into auto generator start I realized I’d have to also convert to an automatic start controller as well. I believe NL offers one. I was going to build.

 

[ksanders]

I only read a little quick research, but enough to satisfy that Twisted is likely correct that in parallel operation the units MUST feed the same dc/ac destinations(kind of the definition of parallel) and that if a phase mismatch is detected on the input(s) it ignores the power.

My NL generator has separate switches for glow plug/starter and only latches when it detects the unit running. My Victron only supports a logic switch to start, I think enough to power a relay. So when I looked into auto generator start I realized I’d have to also convert to an automatic start controller as well. I believe NL offers one. I was going to build.

My NL generator at home has a Deep Sea auto start controller on it, so it starts via a 2 wire contact closure.

 

[Tator]

You are missing load shedding if you plan to use the power assist. The feature is a huge liability without it!

Does this mean that with the Victron you can't have your water heater on a non-inverter circuit if you use the power assist for the rest of the loads?

Tator

 

[ghost]

Depends, but yes. The whole value of the power assist is to help buffer those loads when on shore power.

Install a load shedding relay that triggers based on the presence of shore power. Then drop out the heavy loads automagically.

I put in the load shedding relay, but also have a small 15a manual breaker that allows me to join them back when not on shore power. I’d just shut all the big loads off manually then leave one big load connected for the times when I wanted to use my large bank to power something anyway. Best of both worlds.

 

[ksanders]

To comment on the last two posts...

The way to in my opinion properly set up your boat for using a inverter is to set up a dedicated panel for the inverter and only power loads you want on the inverter from that panel.

I believe that it is unwise to wire a inverter to power your entire panel as most boats have loads that should not be run off of battery power, the water heater being a good example.

This dedicated panel is easier than most think. Most boat panels can be easily split into two separate panels by simply cutting a buss bar.

The idea of load shedding while on inverter power has some merits, but it is more difficult in practicality that it seems at first glance.

Load shedding means that every load in your load shed scheme needs to run through a contactor and each one of those contactors needs to be triggered by the absence of shore/generator power. My opinion is that this approach is more problematic in application and adds more risk of a unintended outage than adding a dedicated inverter panel.

 

[Tator]

That's what I already have. I thought there might be something in the Victron wiring for power assist that prevented using this setup. I admit I haven't gone back in the Victron lit to study this.

Tator

 

[ksanders]

That's what I already have. I thought there might be something in the Victron wiring for power assist that prevented using this setup. I admit I haven't gone back in the Victron lit to study this.

Tator

The power assist feature is pretty simple, and Victron is not the only manufacturer to have it.

The way it works is that you set a AC input limit. If the loads exceed that limit the inverter will use battery power to add to the AC input limited power to carry the load.

 

[stevemitchell]

Does this mean that with the Victron you can't have your water heater on a non-inverter circuit if you use the power assist for the rest of the loads?

Tator

That's how mine is setup.

I have a MultiPlus 3000W + CCGX + BMV-712 and a few other things. Main shore power and generator power come in to a selector switch. 30A for shore, 50A for generator.

The output of that selector switch goes to the MultiPlus. Out of the MultiPlus I have the inverted loads, which include outlets, microwave, and ice maker, and then the second leg which goes to non-inverted loads. Those include the water heater, water maker, wall heaters (which never get used) and my electric stove/oven.

That makes the MultiPlus the central control for all power coming from shore or generator, which means it can ensure I never exceed the 30/50 amps depending on what I am using. It can also supplement power from the battery bank in the Assist mode when I am plugged into shore power or running the generator in case I need more than the available amount.

I've used MultiPluses this way for 5 years, and never had any issues. It does mean you have a single point of failure in the inverter, but I also have a mechanical bypass for the entire thing in the event it dies completely. At that point, I'd either need to be plugged into shore power, or run the generator.

 

[ksanders]

That's how mine is setup.

I have a MultiPlus 3000W + CCGX + BMV-712 and a few other things. Main shore power and generator power come in to a selector switch. 30A for shore, 50A for generator.

The output of that selector switch goes to the MultiPlus. Out of the MultiPlus I have the inverted loads, which include outlets, microwave, and ice maker, and then the second leg which goes to non-inverted loads. Those include the water heater, water maker, wall heaters (which never get used) and my electric stove/oven.

That makes the MultiPlus the central control for all power coming from shore or generator, which means it can ensure I never exceed the 30/50 amps depending on what I am using. It can also supplement power from the battery bank in the Assist mode when I am plugged into shore power or running the generator in case I need more than the available amount.

I've used MultiPluses this way for 5 years, and never had any issues. It does mean you have a single point of failure in the inverter, but I also have a mechanical bypass for the entire thing in the event it dies completely. At that point, I'd either need to be plugged into shore power, or run the generator.

I like your setup in that you have a bypass built in to your system. Good thinking!

My Bayliner came OEM with three shore power inlets, each feeding their own panel. (There is also a rotary selector switch to combine all three to one shore power but I leave that off as I have two shore power feeds at my normal slip)

Each panel’s power (shore or gen) is chosen through a interlocking set of breakers.

What I did was to remove the middle shore power feed and connect that to the output of the inverter. The other breaker in the interlocking set comes from the same feed as panel #1. This created a dedicated inverter panel with a easy bypass in case the inverter fails.

The AC feed from the inverter is from a breaker on panel #1.

I like this set up as I have full redundancy, but it is not without risk I suppose. Theoretically I could overload and trip off the shore power for panel 1 if the inverter needed a lot of current while at the same time a heavy load was on panel #1’s loads. To mitigate that I set my inverter’s AC feed to 15A when tied to shore power.

The new inverters will be set up essentially the same except I’ll have two breakers in the panel each feeding one inverter. The new and better prevention of inadvertent overload will be to sense if shore power is present, and to use that signal to reduce the AC inlet to the inverters to 10 or 15 amps total between the two of them.

This is one of the reasons I am happy to have the two multiplus inverters on the way. They will be delivered on Monday I cannot wait to get them installed!

 

[ghost]

Ksanders, yours is a conservative approach. Can’t fault that, but I don’t see much value to the power assist if you simply plumb the output to a few isolated breakers. The power assist is most valuable to me purely because I can let it help with those big loads. I want it hooked to the main panel! That’s how I get away with a single 30 amp shore power on a 50 foot boat!

For those running power assist without a load shedding strategy, how will you handle somebody tripping over the power cord? Or the dock breaker blowing? If you are worried about the relay failing, do as I did and put in a manual breaker in parallel with the relay. I sometimes use mine to power my hot water heater in the morning occasionally. Since putting in a propane stove I’ve often got the amp hours budget to handle heating some water for that morning shower and can usually do it around 50 amp hours. Really not bad.

 

[mccresa]

Haven’t seen much discussion here on Magnum??? My opinion they are worth a look. Consider two inverter/chargers for redundancy and additional charging capacity when needed. I run two Magnum 2812’s and configured so I can run either one independently or in tandem. This Magnum unit has been around awhile and has most of the bells n’ whistles that are really needed. Magnum tech support from factory was great for design review.....I can’t speak for there support on problems because I’ve never had any! The cruising club we belong to has many members that use Magnum and I hear a lot of praise. Worth a look.

 

[ksanders]

Ksanders, yours is a conservative approach. Can’t fault that, but I don’t see much value to the power assist if you simply plumb the output to a few isolated breakers. The power assist is most valuable to me purely because I can let it help with those big loads. I want it hooked to the main panel! That’s how I get away with a single 30 amp shore power on a 50 foot boat!

For those running power assist without a load shedding strategy, how will you handle somebody tripping over the power cord? Or the dock breaker blowing? If you are worried about the relay failing, do as I did and put in a manual breaker in parallel with the relay. I sometimes use mine to power my hot water heater in the morning occasionally. Since putting in a propane stove I’ve often got the amp hours budget to handle heating some water for that morning shower and can usually do it around 50 amp hours. Really not bad.

No disagreements there. Power assist really comes in handy when your inverter loads exceed your shore power capability.

My inverter panel powers what I would call most things on the boat. I think it is 10 breakers and in practical use it handles all the outlets, microwave, etc... The things it does not power are the water heater, stove, trash smasher, and the OEM electric heaters.

 

[ksanders]

Haven’t seen much discussion here on Magnum??? My opinion they are worth a look. Consider two inverter/chargers for redundancy and additional charging capacity when needed. I run two Magnum 2812’s and configured so I can run either one independently or in tandem. This Magnum unit has been around awhile and has most of the bells n’ whistles that are really needed. Magnum tech support from factory was great for design review.....I can’t speak for there support on problems because I’ve never had any! The cruising club we belong to has many members that use Magnum and I hear a lot of praise. Worth a look.

Nothing wrong with Magnum. I very carefully considered their gear, but chose Victron because of it’s advanced communications and integration capabilities.

In that area nobody else is even in the ballpark.

 

[tiltrider1]

On my previous boat, I started with a 30 amp plug. I added a Trace 2512sw inverter in 1996. This was a total power management system and included what is being referred to as power boost. This was an extremely valuable feature as in the morning with the hot water heater on we would often need 45 amps. After going to work the Trace had all day to recharge the batteries.

Now in those days we did not have load shedding devices so I had to wire the water heater and any resistance heaters to a relay. If the relay didn’t see power from the generator or shore it would drop out. This system worked flawlessly for 20 years and is still in service with a different owner.

The new boat has 50 amp power. I added a Magnum 3012 hybrid to the boat. I could have wired it up the same as the old boat but I realized that with 50 amps I was not going to need the power boost feature. So, I opted for the simpler system and I split the panel into two sections, inverted and non inverted. For 4 years I have had no issues.

Since no two boats have the same needs. It’s hard to blindly recommend a preferred method of handling inverter setups.

 

[OldDan1943]

My AT34 has two 30amp cords. One for the house and one for the ACs.
I bitched about the house 30amp..... then, I installed a 1800 amp inverter for the microwave. I also added a amp meter in the galley so I can keep and eye on the load and if necessary, shed some of the load. First, the HW heater then, I start cycling the stove burners along with the oven. With all that, I have quit complaining about the 30amp house cord. LOL
In time I have corrected all the shortcomings of the AT34, lack of SPACE for every day stuff. It was okay for me but, when my lady moved aboard....cant cure the small hanging closet, for 2 people.
Some modifications I made were definitely 'over-kill'. All custom cabinets were expensive because I use the best company in the Ft Lauderdale area. I think I have known and used them for over 20 (2boats) years. If the next owner doesn't like my mods, he can just bypass my boat, buy another and a year later, wished he had bought mine.