Marine products quality not so great.

[rsn48]

So I finished a massive refit on my boat and basically everything old was removed and replaced and new goodies added. But some of the equipment has failed just months after the boat was splashed.

My new windshield wiper has slowed to a snails pace on one of the units.

My new Bomar hatch was glitched. I will just include what my refit guy wrote me today: "The hatch had one O ring missing in the handle, the other handle was loose, went and got a new O ringed and installed, tightened the other handle, tested with water and no leak" It was this model:

https://www.westmarine.com/buy/boma...rofile-square-deck-hatch--226931?recordNum=22

My Espar diesel heater had problems with the coolant pump and a new one had to be installed.

My refit guy says he almost feels he should order a two of everything he brings in for a refit, the quality has become so bad. Realize my boat was only splashed back in roughly this past mid-August.

 

[timb]

what wiper motor did you get so I don't buy that brand. I just ordered a $1200 windlass I hope it works.

 

[sunchaser]

RSN
Was the coolant pump supplied and labeled Espar? Normally the pumps are a separate order item.

On our vessel the wipers when new were lousy too. Better built vari speed wipers are not cheap.

Hopefully your list of gotchas is short. How is the new motor and drive train performing?

 

[moparharn]

It does not matter what brand name you are buying. If the manufacturer finds itself in a position where they can no longer compete because their retailers, distributors, and end customers are unwilling to pay for the cost associated to produce what was a quality product, they have no choice but to find a way to compete. A quality manufacturer can clearly specify the requirements for a purchased product and this means absolutely nothing to some manufacturers in some regions of the world. It is more than common to supply initial samples of one quality and change the same part during production runs. Culturally it is somehow not as abhorrent to make these changes without their customer knowing about it. What about receiving and inspection? Once you have cut your lifeline of supply, cut your prices to your customer, you have no choice but to try to work out the issue. The crap you see on your boat is what happens in the meantime. Quality may improve in time, but it will never be what it was in these kinds of circumstances. Soon the manufacturer who was forced to sell out their employees and suppliers in order to compete will find out that their new supplier has cloned their product in a facility down the street and intends to run them out of business under a new name with their intellectual property, drawings, machinery, and whatever else they were forced to reveal in order to "compete". Americans wanted Home Depot, Walmart, West Marine, and even worse, Harbor Freight. I am a little surprised that given the relatively low volume of marine products that this would become an issue. It would seem that the cottage industries would be somewhat immune from this race to the bottom. The monster must be fed and it appears to have set some of its sights on the marine industry. Who do you blame? Consumers? CEO's, Wall Street, foreign suppliers? Instead of protecting our manufacturing base we chased the $ and globalization concepts. In the process we sold out the American middle class and the boat owner with a leaky hatch. Globalization ate half of the American middle class, automation is about to eat the other half. I have watched this unfold front row for my entire career. A complete lack of forward thinking and having the interests of your community at heart.

 

[bayview]

moparharn is 100 % correct .

The American people dont understand why it is happening to them

 

[alormaria]

I'm so depressed.

 

[sbman]

While refitting my boat, I've found that it's much better to refurbish the old equipment whenever possible. Most of the old stuff was made to be rebuilt and refurbished. The new stuff is all throw away and barely designed to last one season. I've been amazed at the quality of the original equipment found on a neglected 40 year old boat.

 

[Hippocampus]

What drives me nuts is the old stuff was good quality metal and could be refurbished. The new stuff is plastic and one and done.
The way to compete with cheap labor is cad/cam manufacturing. With reinforced plastics or castings this is possible in the apparently most unlikely places. Unlike metal where I can go to a third world machine shop with a broken part and get it fixed or replaced there’s no chance with the new stuff.

 

[Moonfish]

I'm so depressed.

Yup...

 

[kthoennes]

I would generally agree that the "race to the cheapest" has done serious damage to consumer products and production quality and supply chain reliability and domestic labor skills and many other things in more ways than we can count, and yes, some boat owners join and reinforce the race to the cheapest themselves. For most boat owners though, I don't see that. Heck, if we insisted on bargain basement everything, we wouldn't buy boats in the first place. We get gouged ridiculous prices for "marine grade" parts all the time, when (1) it's often no different or tougher or better than non-marine junk, and (2) sometimes it doesn't matter how much more I'm willing to pay, I simply can't get decent parts. I can refuse to join the race to the cheapest by paying a huge premium but it doesn't make any difference, I still get junk. Cabinet door latches. Macerator pumps. Last year I replaced my cheap broken plastic vent line caps with chromed bronze at a ridiculous cost and the chrome is already flaking off. That's what's so annoying. Blame the Walmart and Harbor Freight stampeding consumers for the current state of affairs if you want, I think that's true, but I can refuse to run in the stampede (by paying ridiculously more) and I still get junk.

 

[kthoennes]

...and here's another example -- I drive Escalades in recent years. Now I would never buy a new one, the price of a new one is absurd in my mind, just silly on its face, but I do buy used. But somewhere, somehow, thousands of other people are buying new ones at laughable six-figure prices so they eventually get to me. Do those six figure prices buy you quality and reliability and good design (I'm talking mechanical design, not styling)? Definitely not. The plastic caps break off my 12 volt power outlets. The plastic doors on the sun visor mirrors break off. The trim pieces on the center console eventually pop off. Half of the dozen audio speakers gradually stop working. The absurdly elaborate spare tire lowering cable (yeah, don't even get me started) gets rusty and breaks to pieces when you try to use it. So did those poor new-Escalade buyers get excellent quality and durability by refusing to join the race to the cheapest, commensurate with spending the price of half a modest house on a vehicle? Nope. They get junk design and poor durability anyway.

If I'm only willing to pay $1 for a tool at Harbor Freight, then I know I'm buying junk and I expect junk. I get it, no one should be able to complain when that drill starts to smoke. But If I'm paying premium prices and I still get junk, that's what ticks me off.

 

[rsn48]

Oh yeah, I forgot to mention gas tanks (she's a gasser). So when I got my old boat refurbished, the old tanks had to go. Originally my refit guy had actually argued with me not to remove the two 50 gallon aluminum tanks. I did the old internet search and found that aluminum tanks have a shorter shelf life than one would think. My tanks were 50 years old so I took them out on principal. I figured when the boat was completely gutted, motor and all, the tanks would in the not too distant future probably give me problems. Once out we discovered very tiny slow leaks from the corners of both tanks.

There is a bit of humour is the unfolding scenario. So the old system had no fuel gauges and a stick was used. I and the refit guy would laugh at the stick. What was even funnier was the the PO used to brag about how much fuel he burned, down to the tenth of a gallon, now how do you do that with a stick. By the way, for real the PO is a nuclear engineer.

So in goes the two new plastic (fill in the appropriate buzz word for the material) tanks with fuel gauge gizmos to give me readings on a two fuel gauges. The problem is that after the first run of the "new" boat, second run and on, the fuel gauges started reading nonsense. Problem number two is that the new tanks have the fuel access located so that there is a bend in the piping, translation - I can't use a stick. Who knew I'd look back with envy on using the stick method. Now I use my Garmin 8616 to give me estimates of fuel burn and fuel left, the problem is I don't know how accurate these estimates are. So for example, according to Garmin I have 52 gallons left, do I?

When I go to my boat in a week or so, I will look at what brand of motor was installed.

 

[BandB]

I would agree with Moparharn that the real cause is the American consumer. Oh, every time I hear "Buy American" I cringe because the ones using it often are the ones who said they'd buy offshore for a dollar less. No one was willing to pay the price and I say that as an American manufacturer. We gain very little from saying "Made in America." We do gain from shorter turnaround.

However, I also have to question your "refit guy." Is he going for the cheapest or did he get the job from you based on price? There are quality brands out there and I wouldn't start my search at West Marine. If it's happening to him every time, then perhaps he needs to do something different. Now, that said, I have a friend who just installed something on a customer's boat and had to return and replace it, all at his cost. So, I know there are issues but shouldn't be constant. And should be able to get the fuel gauges working right.

 

[BruceK]

...My refit guy says he almost feels he should order a two of everything he brings in for a refit, the quality has become so bad. Realize my boat was only splashed back in roughly this past mid-August.

Swap parts one to tother to produce one good complete one?
The downward quality spiral comes from local mfrs trying to compete with cheaper imports. It likely snowballs.
Stuff from a certain "factory to the world" can be crap. I see better stuff coming out of Taiwan, Vietnam, etc.
At least USA/Canada is a bigger market where local mfr may hang on. We`ve several, Ronstan,Muir, GME, but even then some parts are imported. Sarca resisted an "overseas" offer to make their anchors, despite the promise "it will look just the same". But will it perform the same?

 

[rsn48]

All the products on my boat are from in theory reasonable sources (no West Marine in Canada - they left years ago).

Products off the top of my head, Espar, Bowmar, Garmin, Victron, Efoy, Mercury, Rocna, Oceanaire (RIB dinghy), Icom, Standard Horizon, Norcold, Force 10, Dickenson, Plasdeck, Lewmar, Renogy, Clarion and Fusion, Exturn; some of these multiple times, like Norcold fridge and dedicated freezer, Victron smart charger, battery monitor panel and mppt controller.

 

[hollywood8118]

I really try to balance between cost and quality in most things in life.. but sometimes the most expensive item does cost less then a lot of failed cheap ones. One thing on the opposite end of that scale seems to be the cheap knock off heaters mentioned recently in another thread. You could buy 8 of them for a original Webasto heater, I have really bad luck with Webasto heaters and have a non functioning hydronic one currently .

I think both the consumer and corporate leadership share blame in the never ending price wars. Often it seems management will turn to offshore mfg. as they can return a higher margin and make their shareholders a better return.. and then command a higher compensation for the high returns.


I think we are all willing to accept higher prices for " marine " grade products, while hoping it is good value.
HOLLYWOOD

 

[ghost]

I once gave a recommendation for a yard I used a lot. My friend wound up with a not great experience and I very very rarely give my recommendation for anything anymore because of it. Worse, why had it happened? Took me a bit longer to understand what had really happened. In short, it was this, I had a long standing relationship. Whenever I needed something done, if there were decisions, trade offs, I always wanted to do things the right way. Do it as if it was for yourself. I paid whatever they asked, and they never cheated me. Never. But I was always involved such that I understood in detail what/why costs were being driven. They knew me, knew what I wanted. Turns out, many other customers wanted something else.

This was in Everett, WA which is not always known for being top shelf. Oh, the workers were more than capable and honest. They were very knowledgeable. But they were also very used to customers balking at what in reality were very reasonable prices. Basically, they gave every customer exactly what they wanted, and they were also VERY good at spotting what a customer wanted. Often times, that was a lower cost. Of course there is no such thing as a Cadillac at a Volkswagen price. So when a customer demanded a lower price, that’s exactly what they got.

My friends were well meaning enough, but like many consumers, they demanded the price come in at the guessed levels, even after unforeseen issues arrived in a complicated re-power. Something they somehow did not really understand, or just didn’t want to. The consumer did not understand the difference between foreseeable issues and reasonable ones. They simply mindlessly insisted that there should be no cost over runs no matter what. Like any good project manager, we can always bring you in on cost if that is what you want. Basic project triangle 101.

This sort of thinking is typical. I see it in boating and I can now recognize it more broadly everywhere. You may not get what you want, but you will always get what you deserve. We all need to take a bit more responsibility for what we are truly asking for.

 

[Comodave]

I buy a lot of marine equipment and find that I generally get what I pay for. I spend way too much on my boats but that is my choice. I don’t buy the bottom line anything for the boat, but rather brands that I know are decent quality. And almost always it is. You can’t complain about not being able to stick the tanks that you had installed. Who’s fault is that? I sometimes kick myself in the butt because I didn’t plan out something correctly but I can’t complain about the products but rather my lack of proper prior planning.

 

[FF]

Frequently used is better than new. One example is a Morse single lever shift and throttle.

In 1950 -60 era they cost over $100. US , magnificent build but expensive.

Today with inflation the cost would be over $1,100 so plastic crap is used.

Used painted , instead of chrome , or stripped to brass it would still be magnificent .

 

[gotfw]

The book "Poorly Made in China" explains the production process in China and how good products become worse and worse with each production run.

https://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-...in+china&qid=1608297259&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

 

[BandB]

The book "Poorly Made in China" explains the production process in China and how good products become worse and worse with each production run.

https://www.amazon.com/Poorly-Made-...in+china&qid=1608297259&s=digital-text&sr=1-1

And yet there are many well made products from China. The quality of products made anywhere are often the result of the direction of those ordering the production and in many cases that was being done from the US. The prime example would be that Apple orders and obtains excellent quality from China. Two manufacturers only a few miles apart may have very opposite quality of production.

 

[sunchaser]

And yet there are many well made products from China..

To wit, most devices we are touching right now to read this thread.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. g. I feel I have some appreciation of the profit motive that drives a LOT of Chinese. Build to the minimum standards possible until you get caught. This, I think, is true in some cases BUT where there is close scrutiny of manufacturing by offshore interests (US companies?) quality control has been fairly well maintained IF insisted upon by said offshore buyers.


There seems to be a prevailing "this is good enough" attitude in Chinese industry both domestic and international.



Two examples: We stayed at a 5 star Hotel in Xian. Suite with hot tub in bathroom. After a long hot day I thought a soak would be nice. Tried filling up the tub and flooded the floor. I don't think the drains had been hooked up.


5 day cruise on the Yangtze River. Brand new river boat (steel). Some of the welds looked like they had been done by a 5 year old. Gobs of steel where no effort had been made to smooth them out or grind flush. The door to the head in our cabin was skewed and wouldn't close. Alignment was off at least 1''.



That being said, China launched a man into space in 2003. Although we don't know how many attempts it took, you don't go into space with shoddy equipment.

 

[moparharn]

The references above to Apple and other electronics have absolutely nothing to with what we are talking about. Apple built major facilities and housed thousands of their employees in China to get control of quality and production concerns. If you choose to build a facility in China because the Chinese force you to if you want to participate in their enormous market, your quality is going to suffer some initially, but the bigger risk is from them cloning your plant somewhere else while stealing all of your intellectual property.

Look at the early trawlers. People who were "on site" had better quality than firms that allowed the Asians to produce the boast from specifications. If your yard manager was not insisting on certain quality standards your boat quality suffered.

The marine industry is not at all comparable to Apple. Much smaller size, complexity, and requirements.

A multi billion dollar international company I know personally of told me at lunch they had just returned from China where they met with their joint venture partners. The Chinese had resourced at highly critical part in their widget. The people I know said they went there to tell them they could not do that and that they were not allowed to use the widgets they had produced with said parts. They were told that there was another plane back to the US in a few hours and that they might want to see if they could get on it. Production complexity and quality requirements FAR in advance of an Apple phone, and the Chinese made a supplier change like it was a decision on what movie to watch. This will all change with time as they will learn it is not in their long term best interests. Make no mistake, they only care about their long term best interests, or more specifically, the long term best interests of the ruling communist party.

If you had changed suppliers here in the US with this company- You would be out of business the next day. Absolutely destroyed. Finished. Over. This multi national would crush you like a grape for doing that. In China they got the middle finger and a ride back to the airport.

 

[sunchaser]

Mopar, I trust you have spent time in China working with builders, designers and manufacturers?

Speaking of QA/QC, my worst nightmares in this regard are:

- Lucas electrical parts from GB
- SU Carbs
- Leaks from modern era Suburban engine and transmission
- Much about my 3 different SeaRays
- A slew of design and parts issues on two different mid 80s Mercedes
- Currently. seven , albeit "minor", different electrical re-call and re-flash related issues on a 2 year old Porsche. This vehicle will be unloaded before 7 year warranty ends.

Happily, our Acura MDX has had the heck beat out of it back roading and never a whimper.

 

[moparharn]

I assume you are aware that Honda just recalled about 1 million cars in the US. The MDX being one of them. Oh well.

I am not talking about Japan. Japan is obviously the world leader in quality and quality systems. I am talking about China. China only.

Speaking of QA/QC, my worst nightmares in this regard are:

- Lucas electrical parts from GB
- SU Carbs
- Leaks from modern era Suburban engine and transmission
- Much about my 3 different SeaRays
- A slew of design and parts issues on two different mid 80s Mercedes
- Currently. seven , albeit "minor", different electrical re-call and re-flash related issues on a 2 year old Porsche. This vehicle will be unloaded before 7 year warranty ends.

Happily, our Acura MDX has had the heck beat out of it back roading and never a whimper.

 

[Hippocampus]

Had a semi custom boat built for me in mainland China. All parts (woven glass, resin, gelcoat, stainless, bolts, HVAC, hydronic heat, watermaker, everything) was spec’d from Europe or North America. Labor was Chinese. Management was American. Skilled installations were done in the US after importation (electronics and such). It remains the best d-mn boat I ever owned. The detailed thoughtful skilled labor provided by the Chinese was amazing. Even the screw heads in places not exposed to be seen were lined up exactly the same. Obvious pride in their work.

Ah, Lucas prince of darkness. The difference was with a spraycan of ether and a piece of wire even in New England you could use a Morris Garage product as a daily driver.

 

[RT Firefly]

Greetings,
Mr. m. I would put $$ on the reason for "...a decision on what movie to watch." Payola, my friend. THAT'S what the country runs on.



"...the long term best interests of the ruling communist party." Again, payola. Officials being bought off all the way up the line. The CCP doesn't give a hoot about what is going on as long as a company doesn't get caught and cause the party to lose face.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_adulteration_in_China#Chinese_government Read the "Reaction" section.

 

[BandB]

First, Apple didn't build, doesn't own the manufacturing facilities where it's product is built in China.

Second, whether China or the US your quality is directly variable based on your level of oversight of the manufacturing. I've seen horrific quality out of poorly monitored contractors in the US and excellent out of well monitored in most of the world. If you're putting your name on it and not monitoring the production, you're taking very unwise risks. But it's like getting a boat built and not having anyone ever on site or getting repairs done and not monitoring.

There is nothing unique in this regard about being located in China. Quality control and quality assurance require effort wherever you are. The US Auto Industry was a disaster at one time and opened the doors to huge inroads by Japanese builders. This had nothing to do with being in the US as they then proved by manufacturing in the US. It had to do with poorly run companies and lousy quality standards.

 

[sunchaser]

Greetings,
Mr. m. I would put $$ on the reason for "...a decision on what movie to watch." Payola, my friend. THAT'S what the country runs on.



"...the long term best interests of the ruling communist party." Again, payola. Officials being bought off all the way up the line. The CCP doesn't give a hoot about what is going on as long as a company doesn't get caught and cause the party to lose face.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Protein_adulteration_in_China#Chinese_government Read the "Reaction" section.

The recent Party re-call of the Ali Baba $55B public offering comes to mind. Jack Ma was reading the tea leaves incorrectly thinking he was the Chinese version of Jeff Bezos.