Over propped. Is it really a problem?

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If this over propping is such a problem then why are some displacement boats set up with a controllable variable pith propeller. Seems these are specifically to load or unload at any given rpm to get optimal performance.

Generally with a CPP you'll have an EGT gauge and some information about what is an acceptable sustained cruising EGT so you can stay in a safe range. Plus, a CPP will be more commonly found behind an engine that's rated for continuous full power operation (or close to it), so much more of the operating range is safe for continuous use.
 
My Yanmar 100hp and 62hp four cylinder high rpm engine say anything less than 200 rpm less than stated max rpm or considered continues duty.
 
Just wondering, but have you ever flattened the pitch on an over pitched boat and observed what actually happens? And how is dropping the cruise rpm a "benefit"? Finally, are you aware that prop demand curves published by manufacturers are based on the assumption that the prop is correctly pitched, and that if it isn't, the curve is wrong, and with it, any conclusions on hp used at a given rpm?

Yes, I've had extensive experience with my boats being both under and over propped. And being the type of person I am I've measured results carefully given my tools and compared them to the theoretical results. I'm fully aware of what manufacturers recommend and why those recommendations are in place.

I've argued here in the past in opposition to over propping, and can think of lots of situations where reducing pitch would be well advised. But the OPs case is not one of them.

As far as the curve being wrong, you can replace it with one that reflects reality just by adjusting the intersection where load is at 100%. I've built curves for the engines and props that I've used, and they all tell the truth.

On my boat the current configuration has me about 250 rpm overpropped. I can't speak for everyone, but I prefer hanging out at 1400 rpm rather than 1600 rpm. And my engine is no less happy at 1400 and 30% load than it would be doing the same work at 1600 rpm and 25% load.

None of this needs to be particularly mysterious or complex. The physics are well known and clear in a non-planing design.
 
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Yes, I've had extensive experience with my boats being both under and over propped. And being the type of person I am I've measured results carefully given my tools and compared them to the theoretical results. I'm fully aware of what manufacturers recommend and why those recommendations are in place.

I've argued here in the past in opposition to over propping, and can think of lots of situations where reducing pitch would be well advised. But the OPs case is not one of them.

As far as the curve being wrong, you can replace it with one that reflects reality just by adjusting the intersection where load is at 100%. I've built curves for the engines and props that I've used, and they all tell the truth.

On my boat the current configuration has me about 250 rpm overpropped. I can't speak for everyone, but I prefer hanging out at 1400 rpm rather than 1600 rpm. And my engine is no less happy at 1400 and 30% load than it would be doing the same work at 1600 rpm and 25% load.

None of this needs to be particularly mysterious or complex. The physics are well known and clear in a non-planing design.

The key is that your boat is significantly overpowered for the speed you're cruising, which leaves a lot more margin for an overprop. That's common for SD hulls being cruised at trawler speeds. Many of them aren't really well powered (not enough power to plane if the hull shape can, but more power then needed for slow cruising).

If you repowered with a smaller engine sized for your cruising speed, you might be cruising at 2000 rpm and 70 percent load. That setup likely wouldn't tolerate much of an overprop.
 
I think it’s worth explaining the fuel consumption characteristics of a displacement hull vessel. Assuming the vessel isn't capable of planing with the engine(s) in the boat, fuel consumption will increase at a modest rate up to hull speed and maybe an amount after that. Hull speed for this discussion isn't really important to define. Above hull speed and before a boat climbs over the bow wave and goes on plane, horse power and fuel consumption grow tremendously. As an example my boat has the following HP and fuel consumption requirements for the following speeds:

5 knots 1.0 GPH 20 HP
6 knots 1.2 GPH 24 HP
7 knots 2.0 GPH 40 HP
8 knots 3.7 GPH 74 HP
9 knots 7.5 +/- GPH 150 HP
10 knots 16.0 +/- GPH 320 HP

Some where around 12 knots the boat goes over the bow wave, gets on plane, and HP / fuel consumption reduces somewhat.

Most HP and fuel consumption engine graphs are based on planing vessel applications, not the above displacement hull requirements. An analysis of the above numbers shows an ideal hull speed of around 7 knots. As the boat goes above hull speed, for each additional knot HP and fuel consumption can double. If you graph this out, you will find it in no way resembles the HP and fuel consumption curve of a diesel engine. Clearly a modest reduction in RPM will dramatically reduce HP and fuel consumption, far greater than a planing vessel.

Ted
 
None of this needs to be particularly mysterious or complex. The physics are well known and clear in a non-planing design.

I guess Delfin is behaving contrary to the laws of physics. When I removed an inch of pitch, EGT dropped from 850 to 750 at WOT, cruise rpm at 8 knots increased 150 and fuel consumption declined by around 10%, at least according to the fuel flow meter.
 
The key is that your boat is significantly overpowered for the speed you're cruising, which leaves a lot more margin for an overprop. That's common for SD hulls being cruised at trawler speeds. Many of them aren't really well powered (not enough power to plane if the hull shape can, but more power then needed for slow cruising).

I think you've just made my point. This entire discussion is in the context of cruising trawlers at less than hull speed. My case is hardly unique.
 
When I removed an inch of pitch, EGT dropped from 850 to 750 at WOT, cruise rpm at 8 knots increased 150 and fuel consumption declined by around 10%, at least according to the fuel flow meter.

Maybe you should take another inch off!
 
I think you've just made my point. This entire discussion is in the context of cruising trawlers at less than hull speed. My case is hardly unique.

Plenty of trawlers have less extra power than you do though. Particularly FD boats where extra power beyond a point adds no speed.

On the other hand, some are quite overpowered. I've joked that for our usual cruising speeds I could remove one of my engines, cut the other in half and the boat would still be overpowered. But we have enough power to plane, so the extra is useful. But that also means that we're already at pretty low rpm for slow cruise and overpropping make it rather low along with making idle speed pretty fast. Currently we slow cruise at 1250-1300 rpm with engines that rev to 4000, so trying to get the revs lower wouldn't make sense anyway.
 
Plenty of trawlers have less extra power than you do though. Particularly FD boats where extra power beyond a point adds no speed.

I've got 135 hp. Not many out there with less. Anyone contemplating a maximum cruise at less than 3 gph per engine is in the same boat ?
 
I may have slept through the discussion, when/how was it determined overpropping harms the engine. To what degree?
Does an engine lose some of its expected life over a number of years?
Does an underpropped engine gain life?
 
I may have slept through the discussion, when/how was it determined overpropping harms the engine. To what degree?
Does an engine lose some of its expected life over a number of years?
Does an underpropped engine gain life?
https://oceannavigator.com/are-you-over-propped/
 
I may have slept through the discussion, when/how was it determined overpropping harms the engine. To what degree?
Does an engine lose some of its expected life over a number of years?
Does an underpropped engine gain life?

According to this link... https://www.sbmar.com/featured-article/propellers-move-boats-engines-just-turn-them/

Overpropping doesn't necessarily harm an engine or shorten its life if I understood the article correctly (and experience with hearing about and running overpropped boats).

As long as you derate the engine from full throttle, whether the engine is derated electronically/mechanically, you put a stop in the throttle linkage or just never run anywhere near max throttle.

I owned a Lehman 120 for 11 years, and put 3500+ hours on it and never ran it above 1800 rpm (which equates to less than 40hp out of 120). Sold it a couple years ago and last heard the engine the engine was running fine...for all the OCD types, it also had an exhaust to coolant leak in the head for all but about 100hrs of the 3500+.
 
According to this link... https://www.sbmar.com/featured-article/propellers-move-boats-engines-just-turn-them/

Overpropping doesn't necessarily harm an engine or shorten its life if I understood the article correctly (and experience with hearing about and running overpropped boats).

Not sure this language in Athen's article agrees with that.

"With the 380 rating you’d be at least 15% over propped at a minimum

Look at the attached graphs to see where you are now.. It should be obvious that you are already asking more from the engine that Cummins recommends and you are on a short road to a short lived engine from overloading it beyond what it is designed for."


As a practical matter, most diesels last longer than the interest of the owners to maintain them. Over propping is, according to Athens and every other expert I know of, bad for the engine. So maybe it reduces the life from 20,000 hours to 15,000 for the guy who owns it for 5,000 hours. He's likely the one insisting lugging the engine is just fine. But Athens is unequivocal in all of his comments I have read on the undesirability of over propping.

This whole debate reminds me of the arguments against fuel polishing or bypass filtration, which are arguments against cleaner fuel and cleaner oil. Doesn't matter, frequently, for most owners but that doesn't change the reality that cleaner fuel and oil and a prop pitched per the manufacturers requirements for warranty is desirable.
 
That Tony Athens quote aligns quite well with my thoughts on it. By overpropping, you're putting the engine load curve somewhere other than where the manufacturer expects / recommends it to be for continuous cruising (you'll always be above the curve briefly if you throttle up quickly and that's fine). So it puts you outside of the "known good" condition and may lead to issues. The big thing is that in many cases, we just don't have enough information to determine what effect it may actually have, and we're all just guessing.

In Jeff's or Psneeld's case where the most power demanded with how the boat is used is still a small fraction of the engine's max output, it's likely that some amount of overprop can be tolerated without any real issues. But at the same time, we don't know how much it would take to cause an issue, and unless the manufacturers give detailed enough data for RPM vs load vs fuel consumption then without trying it, there's no way to predict if it will increase or reduce fuel consumption. If there are other ratings available for a mechanically near-identical engine and you're operating at what's considered an acceptable load vs RPM point for one of the other ratings, you're likely in fairly safe territory.

As far as underpropping, with an engine that has a governed max RPM, underpropping further beyond the point where you hit the governor is basically just de-rating the engine. Depending on where in the load curve you normally operate (and the engine in question), it may or may not have any effect on engine life. But it will make operation more abuse tolerant, as other than possibly sustained max RPM, it'll be harder to ever run the engine into a range that's not good for continuous use. Underpropping may also be a reality on a boat that sees a lot of load variation. If you've got big tanks and tow a dinghy, for example, you may be propped to target when fully loaded, but underpropped when the tanks are low, no provisions on board, and not towing the dinghy.
 
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So it is possible there are big differences between the one article which discusses Displacement and Semi-Displacement vs Planing hulls.


I was going discuss why the article was off base based on my experience. I too resized and reprop'ed my boat but I am a planning hull - I used the above prop sizing website and nearly fell over... But I reread both articles and each is talking about a different hull. That could be the difference.
 
So it is possible there are big differences between the one article which discusses Displacement and Semi-Displacement vs Planing hulls.


I was going discuss why the article was off base based on my experience. I too resized and reprop'ed my boat but I am a planning hull - I used the above prop sizing website and nearly fell over... But I reread both articles and each is talking about a different hull. That could be the difference.


The hull type doesn't have much effect on what happens for engine loading at cruise (that's just a function of engine output vs cruise power requirement). Where planing hulls differ is the need for significant surplus power at certain speeds to allow accelerating the boat onto plane, even though that extra power at those RPM will only ever be used for a few seconds at a time. Because of that, overpropping is likely to cause obvious performance issues (in terms of the boat struggling to get on plane) rather than just engine loading changes that may not show any obvious effects for years.
 
Over propping is referred to as the Richard Burton effect. At 25 a bottle of whisky a day is fun. At 40 it is a routine happening with no known side effects except your friends nagging about your drinking. At 50 you’re essentially dead.
 
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Most Trawlers can and do get away with some degree of overprop, without short term damage, but the problem I see is that if/when you are pressed into running the motor hard, old man Murphy will be right there!
Bad weather, strong current, or towing can put the overloaded motor in the red zone quickly, results can be catastrophic.
I like knowing that my rig is capable of whatever comes my way, and it actually consumes a little less fuel at cruise, despite higher rpms than it did when it was overpropped.
 
From Dave Gerr, https://www.gerrmarine.com/Articles/enginepowercurves.pdf

NOTE: If you don’t have any engine curves available, you can
estimate that the propeller power at various RPMs as fol-
lows:

90% of max RPM = about 68% of max rated engine power
80% of max RPM = about 48% of max rated engine power
70% of max RPM = about 30% of max rated engine power
60% of max RPM = about 22% of max rated engine power
50% of max RPM = about 15% of max rated engine power
40% of max RPM = about 11% of max rated engine power

So a 120hp 2500rpm motor properly propped is putting out 40 hp at 1750 rpm. Problem? No.

Now add 300 rpm of pitch. To get 40 hp the engine speed is now 1450. Problem? Not at that rpm. I don't need to check with the engine mfg to confirm that. It's easy work.

I'd like to hear cogent arguments on how this harms the engine or has any negative affects on longevity or fuel consumption. I've been unable to find any in many years of reading expert advice...
 
So a 120hp 2500rpm motor properly propped is putting out 40 hp at 1750 rpm. Problem? No.

Now add 300 rpm of pitch. To get 40 hp the engine speed is now 1450. Problem? Not at that rpm. I don't need to check with the engine mfg to confirm that. It's easy work.

I'd like to hear cogent arguments on how this harms the engine or has any negative affects on longevity or fuel consumption. I've been unable to find any in many years of reading expert advice...


Maybe, maybe not. At 1450 RPM instead of 1750 you have less coolant flow, less raw water flow through the heat exchanger, etc. So you're making the same power with less cooling flow available, which may lead to hot spots even if the overall coolant temps stay normal. The lower RPM will also mean less air going through the engine at that power output, giving higher EGTs, which is harder on exhaust valves and turbos. Depending on the engine it may be in a more or less efficient operating range. If the engine is turbocharged any increase in soot output and reduction in boost pressure from being at lower RPM under heavier load may cause issues with clogged turbo vanes, wastegates, etc. over time.

Whether that's pushing it hard enough at the lower rpm to cause any issues over time depends on the engine design. Some will be fine with it, others may not be. The issue is that there's rarely enough information from the manufacturer for any of us to accurately determine whether it's risking an issue or not.


In this example we also don't know what the max power output at 1450 RPM is, so we don't know how close 40hp is to it. If the engine can only put out 45hp at 1450, then asking it to continuously make 40 at that RPM is probably too much.
 
Not sure this language in Athen's article agrees with that.

"With the 380 rating you’d be at least 15% over propped at a minimum

Look at the attached graphs to see where you are now.. It should be obvious that you are already asking more from the engine that Cummins recommends and you are on a short road to a short lived engine from overloading it beyond what it is designed for."


As a practical matter, most diesels last longer than the interest of the owners to maintain them. Over propping is, according to Athens and every other expert I know of, bad for the engine. So maybe it reduces the life from 20,000 hours to 15,000 for the guy who owns it for 5,000 hours. He's likely the one insisting lugging the engine is just fine. But Athens is unequivocal in all of his comments I have read on the undesirability of over propping.

This whole debate reminds me of the arguments against fuel polishing or bypass filtration, which are arguments against cleaner fuel and cleaner oil. Doesn't matter, frequently, for most owners but that doesn't change the reality that cleaner fuel and oil and a prop pitched per the manufacturers requirements for warranty is desirable.


These were the paragraphs from the Tony Athens article that made me think that way....I wasn't thinking as high as 15%, maybe half that...

This was his example....

"You have a new 50,000 lb 45 Ft “East Coaster” with a new QSM11 Cummins rated at 450HP at 2100 RPM and the vessel uses 10 GPH at 12 K’s at 1600 RPM & 800 RPM propeller speed (2:1 gear ratio) – A tad better than 1:1. You are one Happy Camper because you got all the performance you wanted and at 12 K’s, your engine is only loading to 45%, just loafing along.

Now, to make my point, I go down to the vessel and reprogram the ECM for a 300HP at 1800 QSM Fuel Curve Rating. The owner takes the boat out the next day and brings it up to 1800 RPM and looks at his gauges. “WOW” he says – All of a sudden he sees a 70+% load on the engine yet the RPM, GPH & vessel speed is exactly the same. What happened? Actually nothing that matters has happened at all. We are still extracting the EXACT same amount of power from the engine – the “circumstances” for rotating that prop at that prop RPM has not changed so the vessel is performing at that RPM exactly as before. What has changed is, now we are asking the engine to deliver 70+ % of it’s AVAILABLE POWER. So the load % on the engine in relation to that AVAILABLE POWER is much higher. Does that mean we are adding more “wear & tear” to the engine and the engine may not last as long running it at 70+% load versus well under 50% ?? Think about it (answer at the end)."

At the end of the article here was his answer....

"The engine is this case will not have any additional wear & tear taking place. All I did was, when re-programming the engine, put an “electronic cork” under the throttle pedal, so to say. In fact, with the software/electronic governor and engine set this way, the engine would usually have a much longer life, as now the operator does not have the option to run hard even with the “pedal to the metal” and the engine at 100% loading for hours on end. In other words the “electronics” is limiting the HP of the engine to 15 GPH or about 300HP max.

And I need to mention something else related to this discussion that chaps my hide way too often. It’s often said typical dock talk) that you must run a diesel at 70-80% load for max life/efficiency. I say total Horse Manure and the answer is right in this article. Just look at the QSM11 for a perfect example."

"Put the 300HP version of this engine on a dyno producing 215 HP @ 1600 RPM burning 10.6 GPH just like on the attached graph below, and leave it there “forever”. The 300HP version will be running at approx 72% load. Next to it on another dyno, use the 715 HP version and set it up to produce approx 215HP at the same RPM burning 10.6 GPH. The 715 HP version will be at about 30% load. Both engines would be on the “factory prop curve” at the same RPM ( how could that be?) . Outside of the maintenance that each engine would require when “running forever” , (and, I will take this to the bank) ———– Both engines will last the same as to “wear & tear” and both would have no measureable efficiency differences between them that matters. And, how long might that be? I’d say not less than 30,000 hours or 300,000 gallons of fuel burned at that load & RPM with all of the right maintenance done applicable to the engine"
 
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I ask, who decided what the correct prop is on a specific boat with a specific engine?
Frpm that original prop spec begins over and under propping.
Som do you know what your prop size should be? I don't.

I can say that over the years it was more common to take that original prop and over prop it, never heard anyone talk about under prop. The reasons were always the same, use less rpm to achieve max speed without lugging the engine. Diesels are workhorses and want a load. Now of course we are talking about older built engines. Some of these newer ones are designed to run at higher rpm than their older cousins.

There is too many combinations of hulls, engines and the right prop to get one right answer.

ETA: post 83 said it better.
 
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The hull type doesn't have much effect on what happens for engine loading at cruise (that's just a function of engine output vs cruise power requirement). Where planing hulls differ is the need for significant surplus power at certain speeds to allow accelerating the boat onto plane, even though that extra power at those RPM will only ever be used for a few seconds at a time.

I don't understand why you keep talking about planing boats. This is a trawler forum. With non-planing boats the rules like Dave Gerr's apply reliabltly. With planing designs those rules go out the window. The concerns are truly different between the two types of boat.
 
Most of Tony Athens examples are running a 2800 rpm engine at 2300 and trying to decide if overpropping is bad. The answer in that case might be yes, as the engine is approaching its torque spec. In a SD trawler the way many are run (mine for example) I have a 3000 rpm engine begin run at 1250 rpm. There is a huge gap between the prop absorption and the engine output. The torque output is 30%, read from the ECU. Do you really think the engine will last longer (or not as long) if I change the prop and go to 1500 rpm at 25% torque? I don't think Tony, or even the manufacturer, has an authoritative answer to that. I'd agree that if I overprop, then try to run the engine at 80 or 90% of torque, it might be bad for it. Don't do that.

If you take a look at how the Big Three truck makers have set up their engines and transmission controls (at least one of these three uses the same Cummins engine), they are cruising down the freeway at low rpm and fairly low torque figures. As you start up a hill the drivetrain controls will continue to keep the engine at low rpm until the torque is up at 80% or higher, then it will downshift (just like reducing prop pitch). Also true of towing a trailer, not an intermittent thing. So Ford, GMC, and Ram are unconcerned about low, medium, or even high torque outputs at low rpm damaging the engine.

Now it should be said that these trucks have a lot of feedback in the control system, including EGT, coolant temp, etc. and will derate (or downshift) when necessary to protect the engine. In a boat you should do the same thing, if the engine controls don't.

The idea that higher rpm at lower torque leads to longer engine life isn't obvious. Which is harder on the engine? 20% more piston and bearing travel, or 20% more BMEP? At lower rpm and torque outputs, probably neither is particularly hard on the engine, and there is no clear winner. Against this is the common saw that "diesels must be run hard". How do you reconcile that with higher rpm and even lower torque? (BTW I don't believe that one either, nor do the Big Three).

I'll assert that for a typical SD trawler, run at displacement speeds where it is typically way overpowered, some degree of overpropping has zero effect on useful life. If you overprop, then frequently run it at higher rpm where the prop and engine curves are close, there is the possibility of higher wear or even damage. Again, don't do that.

I'll also assert that there is typically very little fuel economy to be had by simply overpropping, in a modern diesel at least. The fuel economy map is pretty flat in any normal rpm and power range. It takes the same power to move a boat at 7 knots regardless of what rpm the engine is running. There will be cases where an engine has a dip or gradient in the fuel map, and getting to the right side if you are on the wrong side might help. In a modern electronically controlled engine that would be a rare occurrence. A valid reason to overprop might be to reduce noise at cruise. That is why I'd do it in an SD trawler.
 
Maybe, maybe not. At 1450 RPM instead of 1750 you have less coolant flow, less raw water flow through the heat exchanger, etc. So you're making the same power with less cooling flow available, which may lead to hot spots even if the overall coolant temps stay normal. The lower RPM will also mean less air going through the engine at that power output, giving higher EGTs, which is harder on exhaust valves and turbos. Depending on the engine it may be in a more or less efficient operating range. If the engine is turbocharged any increase in soot output and reduction in boost pressure from being at lower RPM under heavier load may cause issues with clogged turbo vanes, wastegates, etc. over time.

Whether that's pushing it hard enough at the lower rpm to cause any issues over time depends on the engine design. Some will be fine with it, others may not be. The issue is that there's rarely enough information from the manufacturer for any of us to accurately determine whether it's risking an issue or not.


In this example we also don't know what the max power output at 1450 RPM is, so we don't know how close 40hp is to it. If the engine can only put out 45hp at 1450, then asking it to continuously make 40 at that RPM is probably too much.

Show me a diesel - any diesel - that is overloaded at 1/3 rated hp and 1/2 rated rpm. All I need to see is the manufacturers power curve. I don't think you'll find one.

Similarly with cooling. If an engine is rated to shed X amount of heat at full rpm are you suggesting that at 1/2 rpm it will struggle to provide 1/3 as much heat removal? That's a stretch.
 
From Dave Gerr, https://www.gerrmarine.com/Articles/enginepowercurves.pdf

NOTE: If you don’t have any engine curves available, you can
estimate that the propeller power at various RPMs as fol-
lows:

90% of max RPM = about 68% of max rated engine power
80% of max RPM = about 48% of max rated engine power
70% of max RPM = about 30% of max rated engine power
60% of max RPM = about 22% of max rated engine power
50% of max RPM = about 15% of max rated engine power
40% of max RPM = about 11% of max rated engine power

So a 120hp 2500rpm motor properly propped is putting out 40 hp at 1750 rpm. Problem? No.

Now add 300 rpm of pitch. To get 40 hp the engine speed is now 1450. Problem? Not at that rpm. I don't need to check with the engine mfg to confirm that. It's easy work.

Just for fun, and relating back to the OP's question, what happens if you add pitch and keep the same rpm?

Max rpm is now 2200. You'd have to refer to the engine curve to get maximum power at 2200. Let's conservatively say 100 hp.

Using Gerr's formula we can say that at 1750 the engine is at at 80% of the max rpm, and is therefore putting out 48% of max hp or 48 hp.

At some point as you increase rpm you're going to hit a danger zone, but with these numbers it's not even close.
 
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Talk to the generator people. A generator runs at a fixed RPM but the load changes from light to heavy. Never been told that my generator’s life will be shortened because of load. In fact all diesel manufacturers reps. Have always said that diesels are good for a given amount of fuel. Use the fuel lightly you get more hours. Use the fuel heavily you get less hours.
 
My boat is way overpowered and not over propped. I am considering over propping the boat somewhat. Why? Cuz I had Detroit two cycle diesels. The boat manufacturer recommends running the engines at 2,100 rpm for a boat speed of 8.5 knots (S/L of 1.38) and fuel burn of 8 gph. I run the boat at 7.3 knots at 1,600 rpm at 3.2 gph. The engines are up to temp. It maxes out about 9.6 knots at 13 gph @2,400 rpm and no smoke. Jet Skis back off jumping the wake @ 9.5
The exact same engines are used in the much heavier 48 LRC with a weight increase of 50% Both boats are full displacement.

With Detroits you have choices. I can re-pitch the props or install 35mm injectors vs 45 mm injectors resulting in a drop in hp to 90 each. To tell you the truth, I don't know what that would do. Cost about $800 per engine. The current injectors are a minimum of 25 years old. Curent engine hours is 1,710
 

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