Does your boat punch or slice?

dwhatty said:

Never thought of our Island Gypsy 32 as a slicer. Doodling along at about 7 kts here.

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Guess someone would have to accurately define "puncher/slicer" which will never happen. So we have one of those "fun" threads where MAYBE some intelligent concepts will be bantered back and forth.

I consider my Albin a slicer because at the waterline the bow is very hollow, so at the speeds she's designed to operate at, very little resistance and interuption of progress is made when powering into smaller waves.

I know she's not low resistance, and I wouldn't define her as a puncher...but then again...what's a puncher?

Hi Eric,

Agreed the boat does appear a bit 'lobstah' looking from above, but from below, a different look.
That and the fact that no matter how much hp is applied, the final top speed is around 9 knots - does make for quite a monster wake though

The elements for a slicer is narrow, low volume fwd, low entry angle and low displacement. Bshanafelt's boat is one of the best slicers on the forum. psneeld I know how you like facts and references but this is basically a relative thing. A serious slicer will have a very narrow wedge like shape fwd and the only boat on the forum that is a real slicer is Boatgm's tri. But if you want to divide up most of the boats here and label them 50% slicers and 50% punchers the boys from the girls could be separated .. girls are punchers .. right? Re dwatty's comment the IG has a bit of a hollow entry that kinda slices a bit but then the beam presents it's mass and the pusher/puncher personality is something you can't hide. Hardly any slicers here. Look at the stern view of Willy at full speed and one could hardly call her a slicer. And if a Willard just barely qualifies as a slicer ... Look at the elements I called out for a slicer at the top of this post and you can see why Willy has trouble qualifying as a slicer. Slicers make long gentle bow waves. And relatively speaking Bshanafelt's boat is relatively good at that. Any boat that can push water fwd at the bow would be a pusher and any boat that pushes water aside at a higher rate than most sailboats is a pusher. It's hard to define but these are some opinions and thoughts. I can sum this whole thing up in one short sentence " Trawlers aren't slicers." One last thought ... ever seen a real trawler (as in fishing Trawler) that was/is a slicer?

manyboats said:

The elements for a slicer is narrow, low volume fwd, low entry angle and low displacement. Bshanafelt's boat is one of the best slicers on the forum. psneeld I know how you like facts and references but this is basically a relative thing. A serious slicer will have a very narrow wedge like shape fwd and the only boat on the forum that is a real slicer is Boatgm's tri. But if you want to divide up most of the boats here and label them 50% slicers and 50% punchers the boys from the girls could be separated .. girls are punchers .. right? Re dwatty's comment the IG has a bit of a hollow entry that kinda slices a bit but then the beam presents it's mass and the pusher/puncher personality is something you can't hide. Hardly any slicers here. Look at the stern view of Willy at full speed and one could hardly call her a slicer. And if a Willard just barely qualifies as a slicer ... Look at the elements I called out for a slicer at the top of this post and you can see why Willy has trouble qualifying as a slicer. Slicers make long gentle bow waves. And relatively speaking Bshanafelt's boat is relatively good at that. Any boat that can push water fwd at the bow would be a pusher and any boat that pushes water aside at a higher rate than most sailboats is a pusher. It's hard to define but these are some opinions and thoughts. I can sum this whole thing up in one short sentence " Trawlers aren't slicers." One last thought ... ever seen a real trawler (as in fishing Trawler) that was/is a slicer?

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as I said..there's no "real definition" so we are just having fun.

My definition of your concept would best be described as "low resistance boats"...not necessarily slicers and dicers... read this and you'll understand where I'm coming from...

Low-Resistance Boats: Build 24 Boats That Move Easily Through the Water [Paperback]

Thomas Firth Jones
Thomas Firth Jones (Author)
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But my boat has never once given me a "shudder" which I would associate with a "puncher"...then again I neither try to push her to 10 knots or are stupid enough to get caught in waves big enough to break into her bow with that much force (yet) and even then many of the other boats you are probabltthinking of would feel a shudder too.

So at some point most all boats are slicers and at other points punchers...unless you have a boat like a Hobie Cat....

Eric, I still smile everytime I see a picture of Willy on the water. That boat is just right.

psneeld,
Much agreement but look at the boat low on the cover of Low Resistance Boats book and you will see a slicer boat. Notice how the water running up the side of the boat dos'nt splash back onto the water until well aft of the stem. The opposite would be a tug where some water from the bow wave is destined to splash back onto the surface of the water directly in front of the boat.
"as I said..there's no "real definition" so we are just having fun."
Yes. And fun is good. I've noticed the guy that started this ran away.

I have posted this shot before but didn't have it in this iPad until today. This is a shot of Spray, the prototype for the Grand Banks 36, the first model American Marine made in their Grand Banks line of boats that was started in wood in 1966. American Marine in Kowloon (across the bay from Hong Kong) commissioned naval architect Kenneth Smith in the early 60s to design the prototype for a new line of boats American Marine came to call "Dependable Diesel Cruisers." (American Marine never used the term '"trawler" to describe any of their boats since they weren't and aren't.) IIRC, Spray was launched in 1964.

While the production model of the GB36 had a somewhat different house design, the hull was identical to Smith's hull for Spray.

This is Spray at speed. She is a single-engine boat but I can't remember what she had for an engine. I don't believe it was an FL120 but it was an engine of similar size and power.

In any event, this is what our hull would look like at the same speed since our hull is identical to Spray's. Whether this is knifing or punching I have no idea, but it looks like a pretty clean entry to me.

Pretty "punchy". Probably doing about 7 kts here, not enough to make the stern squat much. With genset, thruster, etc installed forward, I think a lot of the Taiwanese boats tend to go bow-down like this. Cannot recall how much is in the fuel/water tanks when this was shot, but we typically have to clean our "Pamlico mustache" where the tannin-filled bow wave stains the hull.

I am a puncher for sure. When I brought my boat up from San Francisco to Vancouver, we had 20-35 knot winds for about 40 hours of the trip and had some decent seas around a couple of the infamous Cape's. This video is just approaching Cape Mendocino. For the 125 or so hours of the trip, I think I had my windshield wipers on for maybe 20 minutes...the bow punched and threw the waves to the side. Now surfing down 12 footers and taking them on the beam...well, I did not have video for that. I was too busy pooping my drawersVID 00000024 - YouTube

So baldpaul was it fun? Sounds like a long hard run.

ARoss, sounds like good calls all. I've always like the CHB 34s except for the FG structural issues I hear about. I think the CHB is a little closer to a full disp hull than most other trawlers. Yes it does look heavy and I've noticed lots of trawlers trim bow down and even run that way. I wonder how many have fuel or water tanks all the way aft? My Willy comes up several inches when I fill the 2 50 gal water tanks aft. I try to not run the boat empty. It runs bow down stern up. Most trawlers won't change trim as much as Willy.

Marin I can't believe that boat in your post is the same hull as yours. It's about as much a slicer as any trawler would be. All I can say is that it (Spray) must be about 1/2 the displacement as a normal GB 36. Also it looks like it's making about 15 knots and I know it would take LOTS of power especially w a single screw to go that fast on a regular 36. Looks great in the picture though.

Our GB36 has the exact same Kenneth Smith hull as Spray. That's why American Marine hired him. The wood G36 hulls were built identically to Spray's and the original molds for the fiberglass GB36 were an exact copy of the wood hull complete with the cove lines. There is one hull difference between the GB36 and Spray but it is above the waterline, and that is the incorporation of the "break" or "step" in the sheer line about 2/3 of the way aft. But below the water the hulls are identical.

The only difference between Spray's underbody and ours is that our boat, being a twin, has the keel curving back up into the hull instead of ending in a rudder shoe and rudder.

I've seen newer GBs, ones with larger engines, clipping along at 12 to 14 or 15 knots and their bow waves look just like Spray's in the photo. While I did not go out to look over the side at our bow, when we ran the boat up to WOT to get the rpm figures for the prop shop a few years ago, the bow came up a lot. As I recall we were doing some 11 knots or so indicated and I imagine we looked pretty much like Spray.

In 1988 they made new molds for the GB36 and 42 and both boats got a tiny bit longer, a wee bit wider, and significantly taller although the hull configuration did not change. But the pre-1988 GB36s have hulls identical to Spray's. I don't know the weight of Spray but it's in the same ballpark as the wood GB36s. The main difference would be the addition of the flying bridge structure to the top of the GB36 main cabin.

I have no idea how fast Spray is going in that photo. I doubt it's 15 knots. I can't recall what kind of engine Spray has, or had then, but it was not much different than an FL120 and I think--- but I could be wrong--- it was actually a bit less power.

Here are two other shots of Spray, one from 1964 or thereabouts and one quite recent showing her as she looks today. As of the other year Spray lived in the mid-west, I believe on one of the Great Lakes.

PS-- I just did a search on the GB owners forum to see if I could find anything about Spray's specs. I ran out of time to do a complete search but I did unearth this--- Spray was considered by American Marine to be the first GB36. When they started building GB36s in 1965, they assigned Spray an official hull number. She is GB36-000

The Grand banks as well as my Albin and many of the other trawlers have a very fine entry below the waterline for the first 10 feet or so of boat. That's why most are trimmed by the bow after we put a little to much weight in the forward area. Thus my definition of slicers as long as you keep them within their reasonable design parameters. Thus making them reasonable efficient also as long as you don't push them.

Very good Marin. And if you threw 10 or 15 thousand pounds overboard you mighn't be able to do the same w your plastic boat but to loose 12klbs you'd probably have to tear out the stringers and grind away some FG. The production "woodies" must have been very heavily built wood boats as I've not heard GB people telling how much better they perform down through the years. And psneeld the whole bow makes the wake .. not just the first foot or two. Perhaps Spray had a big gas V8 and w the wood construction was very light. And of course most semi-planing and all planing cease to be punchers when they get up a bunch of speed. And if all you say about Spray is to be why won't your boat cleave the water like Spray in that pic. Another strong possibility is that that pic of Spray was taken a few days after launch and the boat had next to nothing inside it. I'll call Spray a slicer though. Have you any pics of the later GBs w big engines going 15 knots or so? I'll bet their bow waves don't look like Spray's.

This may make you feel better Marin .. seriously. Here's a picture of a boat about the same size as yours that is clearly a puncher. I think it's a puncher in the way Mark originally intended his word "puncher" to be taken and your GB and psneeld's Albin are'nt punchers to this degree or in this way. Compared to this boat your boats are slicers to be sure. I however have a different concept of the idea of slicer. I visualize Elcos, Richardsons, Wheelers, Mathews and other boats of the 40s or so. There were many boats then that were 10 to 15 knot boats that were excellent slicers. psneeld is right. Slicer and puncher are just words to be taken however the individual wants to as there's no definitions. Ever heard of an "axe bow"?

Here'ya go Mr. Wizard....tell me what this tells you....

Eric-- Spray had a relatively low power diesel. American Marine's whole concept, which is what they hired Ken Smith to create for them, was an economical, dependable, DIESEL cruiser. I have read what Spray had for an engine and as I recall it was in the neighborhood of 100 hp.

The wood production GBs were built the same way as Spray. Spray was not a special lightweight boat. She was designed to be the proof of concept vessel for what American Marine wanted to put into production, so everything about her set the stage for the production boat. After having people examine and go out on Spray it was decided to change the house configuration somewhat to incorporate some of the suggestions and ideas that would make the boat more user-friendly. But Smith's hull remained the same other than the aesthetic decision to put the break in the sheer line.

I think our old boat was a slicer. Here she is at 8kts.

dwhatty,
Bravo ... we have a real slicer. Thanks for posting it.

Marin and psneeld how can you conceive of "pushing" a big, wide and heavy boat through the water w/o doing some water plowing? A boat makes two kinds of waves. Bow waves and following waves. How heavy is your boat and how wide is it? That will largely predict how big a bow wave you're going to make and if your'e wide and deep you're going to "punch" unless the boat is long and narrow. Good photographs for the argument though however misleading. The Albin actually looks like a slicer.

Being called "Wizard" buts this into the category of argument so I'm going to bail on this thread. I think all the non-argumentors have got the picture.

psneeld,

To me, yours looks alot like mine...

manyboats said:

Marin and psneeld how can you conceive of "pushing" a big, wide and heavy boat through the water w/o doing some water plowing?

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Eric--- I have no idea if the GB is a "slicer" or a "puncher.". Nor do I care since it is what it is. And the terms are so ambiguous it's pretty much a meaningless comparison.

I put up a photo of Spray and the only thing I'm saying is that whatever it is-- slicer or puncher-- it's the same hull as our and all GB36s.

I agree that a hull pushes water no matter what the bow wave looks like. The evidence of this lies in the dolphin, the Pacific Whitesided being the one I'm most familiar with. If you look down on them in front of a bow you realize that they are not moving any part of their bodies. No tail movement, no flipper movement, no undulating bodies. They weave back and forth, but they are being moved forward by the pressure wave underwater created by the hull's forward movement through the water. I have a wonderful video showing exactly this.

So I have no argument at all with you that a hull moving though the water pushes water ahead of it. How much and with what force is determined by the hull shape and speed through the water. But the other month I stood on the bow of an displacement boat (photo) going as fast as it could at about 9 or 10 knots and watched a bunch of dolphins riding the pressure wave. So you don't have to go fast or even make a big bow wave (the boat I was on didn't) to move water ahead of the boat.

manyboats said:

dwhatty,
Bravo ... we have a real slicer. Thanks for posting it.

Marin and psneeld how can you conceive of "pushing" a big, wide and heavy boat through the water w/o doing some water plowing? A boat makes two kinds of waves. Bow waves and following waves. How heavy is your boat and how wide is it? That will largely predict how big a bow wave you're going to make and if your'e wide and deep you're going to "punch" unless the boat is long and narrow. Good photographs for the argument though however misleading. The Albin actually looks like a slicer.

Being called "Wizard" buts this into the category of argument so I'm going to bail on this thread. I think all the non-argumentors have got the picture.

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You are kidding right? Right from the git go there's NO right answer....whether I think no and you think yes...well.....you just think you know something about hull design that others don't. Don't kid yourself.

Anyway... the topic is punch or slice...not PUSH or slice so at least stay with the topic.....

And my boat doesn't punch the way I run it...thank you very much

You guys please settle down. The tone is getting a little edgy here.

Thanks.
Tom-

Definitely a punch. Rounded bow, steeply raked. Not a fine entry, but not too wet either.

Thanks, Tom!

Okay, with regards to Spray I've just learned some new stuff. Seems I was both right and wrong in my description of the boat. I was right in that she was the prototype for the American Marine GB36 and the hull is the same as the production boats. But my memory was wrong with regards to her power. She had/has an engine of considerably more power than I recall. Here is part of an article I was directed to by one of the founders of the Grand Banks Owners Forum.....
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"Spray was commissioned by Robert Adams of Madison, Connecticut, and designed by naval architect Kenneth Smith of Fairfield, Connecticut, to be a sea-worthy hard-chined power cruiser capable of extended travel. She was built in 1962 by the Wharton Shipyard in Jamestown, Rhode Island, now known as the Jamestown Boat Yard. She is built of Philippine mahogany planking on oak frames and is powered by a single 270-hp D333 Caterpillar diesel engine turning a 24-inch propeller through a 2-speed transmission....

"Spray is considered to be the prototype for the first Grand Banks 36' trawlers built by American Marine starting in the 1960s until 1973 [when production of the GB36 was switched from wood to fiberglass]. In particular, her Kenneth Smith-designed hull was faithfully duplicated with modifications to cabin layouts and addition of a flybridge. She has been designated by Grand Banks as hull number GB36-000 in honor of her historic ancestry. Spray remains an integral part of the Grand Banks legacy and is the namesake of the corporate magazine."
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Obviously there was some connection between Robert Adams, Kenneth Smith, and Robert Newton, American Marine's founder, since in the official history of Grand Banks on the company's website, Kenneth Smith is described as having been commissioned in 1962 by American Marine to design Spray as the prototype of the diesel cruiser they wanted to put into production. However I did not know that Spray had been built in the US. I have always been led to believe that Spray was actually built by American Marine in Kowloon.

The use of almost 300hp in Spray is interesting. Smith's semi-planing hull could certainly make use of the power so one wonders why in the production boats that followed the power was always either one or two 120 hp engines. Why not duplicate Spray in power as well as in hull design?

I would certainly be happier with our boat if it had one or two 270hp engines than just the two 120hp engines.

"Puncher" Carquinez Coot bottom painting is complete. Had propeller treated too to minimize barnacle build-up. Interior rust under the forward cabin has beeen treated (caused by last year's chainlocker-drain leak). The Coot should be back in the water tomorrow where blowback-oil-recovery system will be installed. (I apologize for the off-topic nature of this post but it is very difficult and time-consuming to get on this forum. But after all, it is my thread.)





Punching:

Slicer here....see avatar!!!

Slice, dice, chop, punch....I am the ginzu knife of the seas...I can do it all, slice through 16d nails and still slice a tomato!

Only here could Slice or Punch become a reason to argue. Sometimes I wonder.

I will say that by now I have a thick skin, and that I do appreciate all of the input.

markpierce said:

"Puncher" Carquinez Coot bottom painting is complete. Had propeller treated too to minimize barnacle build-up. Interior rust under the forward cabin has beeen treated (caused by last year's chainlocker-drain leak). The Coot should be back in the water tomorrow where blowback-oil-recovery system will be installed. (I apologize for the off-topic nature of this post but it is very difficult and time-consuming to get on this forum. But after all, it is my thread.)

Punching:

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Well mark, I have hull #2 Harvest Eagle. Sailed her from HK to Singapore 9 days non stop, tail of a typhoon, surfed down waves @ 13 knots, only once she tried to broach. Done a lot of modifications on her but stuck on the 7 knot speed.
Well cheers

Sent from my iPad using Trawler

Mine's definitely a puncher. Round bow, not a lot of flare, but unless the wind is blowing it's a pretty dry ride at hull speed. On plane, that's a different story.



Here's a video I took last year, running on plane ~20kts. Not much spray coming onto the boat, but there was just a wind of about 10-15kts.

Columbia River at Hood River heading downstream, Windsurfers July, 2012 - YouTube