Weapons Preservation on board

I think there would have been pretty much the same outcome here in FL...IMHO. But only because I can't think of any "open container law" here in FL other than in cars, or on the property of an establishment selling alcohol....as in consuming alcohol outside the establishment in the parking lot. On the other hand...had the witness been the bartender and stated that he had cut off the guy because of inebriation, and saw same guy take the helm of a vessel and leave the dock....and the LEO's caught up with the vessel, boarded, and tested the individual, the DWI/BWI/OWI or DBO would have stood up against a challenge in court. And there is always that possibility that the LEO could have stated that the boat had swerved for no apparent reason, so they did a safety check...and whoops smelled alcohol on the captain's breath and tested him.....that would have more than likely stood the test...just like roadside checks do....en masse.

JAT said:

I think there would have been pretty much the same outcome here in FL...IMHO. But only because I can't think of any "open container law" here in FL other than in cars, or on the property of an establishment selling alcohol....as in consuming alcohol outside the establishment in the parking lot. On the other hand...had the witness been the bartender and stated that he had cut off the guy because of inebriation, and saw same guy take the helm of a vessel and leave the dock....and the LEO's caught up with the vessel, boarded, and tested the individual, the DWI/BWI/OWI or DBO would have stood up against a challenge in court. And there is always that possibility that the LEO could have stated that the boat had swerved for no apparent reason, so they did a safety check...and whoops smelled alcohol on the captain's breath and tested him.....that would have more than likely stood the test...just like roadside checks do....en masse.

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My main point was that NO LE authority has the right to an "unreasonable search"...there has to be more and even in the case I posted, the court smelled a rat when the coastie said it was a routine boarding.

I have to ask as a UK citizen living in BC , why do you feel you need to carry firearms on board, I could understand if you were in pirate country [Mexico] or south america but ib US or Canadian water ?this is a genuine question as I do not understand the need.

expat said:

I have to ask as a UK citizen living in BC , why do you feel you need to carry firearms on board,

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Reasonable question. Speaking only for ourselves we do not carry a firearm in the plane or on the boat or in our vehicle on backcountry trips for protection against other humans. But because of where we live and the remoteness and ruggedness of some of the places we visit by air, water, or road, we carry a firearm for two reasons.

One, and this is particularly true wth the plane, is for bear protection. Not so much in the boat although if one dinghys ashore in remote areas, either to explore, beach comb, fly fish, or give the dog some excercise, an encounter with a bear is a very real possibility. And we have encountered plenty of them over the years in BC and SE Alaska.

Two, and more important, it is a part of our survival equipment. Again, much more of an issue with the plane than with the boat or vehicle.

In our case a shotgun fills the bill most effectively. Carrying a handgun for bear protection, besides being illegal in Canada, is an excercise in futility because a charging bear is so hopped up on adrenaline that a shot that would normally kill it may well have no effect at all, at least not until it reaches you and takes you apart. The one way a handgun is effective against a bear is if you can jam it between his jaws as he bites down on you.

So we do what we were advised many years ago by the Alaska Fish & Game folks and carry the shotgun pictured earlier in this thread which at very close range has tremendous stopping power when loaded with the right kind of shells. I know this from experience, unfortunately.

On the survival side, loaded with a much lighter shell, the shotgun is an effective way to gather small game--- squirrels and such--- in case you are so far out in the bush or out of contact that rescue will be awhile in coming.

And a shotgun is legal to possess in the two countries we frequent.

The two photos below were taken by my wife a few weeks ago when we were fishing up the north end of Vancouver Island. She did not use a big telephoto lens, by the way. In the lower shot the bear was about fifteen feet from her. Up there, bears are all over the place. These are black bears and as such are not so much a potential problem although a mother and cubs can be. Brown bears are a somewhat different story.

I am more concerned with the threat of Humans then I am with Bears...

Blue Heron said:

I am more concerned with the threat of Humans then I am with Bears...

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a shotgun is still a good vessel self defense weapon...it's even a good offensive weapon should you choose...

the boating standard that I'm familiar with is the remington 870 marine magnum.

psneeld said:

a shotgun is still a good vessel self defense weapon...

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There is an old saying: "When seconds count, the police are minutes away". Apply that to a marine situation and we're talking maybe an hour or more.

Look, in my years on the water, both salt and fresh, the boating community I encountered were mostly polite and respectful of their fellow boaters and their craft. I suppose encounters with "hoodlums" on the water are quite rare, but as we progress down this road our society is on I can see those encounters happening more often. Like your PFDs and EPIRB, you may never encounter a situation when you need them, but you have them anyway, just in case. Because when your life is on the line, the Coast Guard or Marine Patrol are an hour away.

Thanks Marin for your reply.I can understand the wildlife/bear cougar answer for BC and Alaska coasts, my next question is do any of the Canadian boats carry firearms, we have always relied on the flare gun but have never actually used it .

expat said:

Thanks Marin for your reply.I can understand the wildlife/bear cougar answer for BC and Alaska coasts, my next question is do any of the Canadian boats carry firearms, we have always relied on the flare gun but have never actually used it .

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I think you will find that the whole "we carry a weapon to use against people" thing is one of these armchair theory things. While I know there have been incidents of intrusion, boardings, and other such conflicts, I suspect that 99.9999999999999 percent of boaters, at least in US and Canadian waters, have never had an incidence of needing a firearm for personal protection against another person even if they've been boating for decades.

I'm not saying this is a reason not to carry a firearm if one is convinced they are under iminent threat of attack in the marina or on the mooring. Just that I think the threat that is used as the reason for carrying a firearm is mostly in people's imaginations.

In other waters-- Mexico, Central America, SE Asia, etc--- the situation sounds like it is way different. But Joe Boater out for a week's or weekend's cruise in the San Juans or Gulf Islands or along the Maine coast the ICW is not likely to be set upon by hooligans bent on destroying his boat and raping his dog.

I wouldn't carry in the US or Canada.If I was headed south,I would be more concerned with thieves,drug runners,smugglers,and pirates.

Black bear attacks boater

http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=2&ved=0CFEQFjAB&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.thewildlifenews.com%2F2008%2F09%2F11%2Fbear-mauls-fisherman-on-docked-boat-salt-spring-island-bc%2F&ei=6q8cUPWkLYXtiwLho4CIDg&usg=AFQjCNH6N38Wlfv0MPoGI0dz82AxXVASyg&sig2=LpbDHmk7KSTt-5-T6pmHEg
I just thought I'd mention this as when I last traveled north to Alaska I took a shot gun with me through Canada. The right to carry a gun as an non Canadian is really up to the immigration officer. When I purchased my permit the officer said that they didn't feel I would need the shot gun in Canada but since I was traveling on to Alaska I would need one. This bear attack was on Vancouver Island where the black bears are always friendly and apparently this bear hadn't been told. I carry 3" slugs and bird shot for game should that become necessary for survival. As to human threat, probably not a problem in Canada or Alaska, down here in California it's a problem.
http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=...PoGI0dz82AxXVASyg&sig2=LpbDHmk7KSTt-5-T6pmHEg

Being Retired from the Marines i have delt with this since 1983, the latest lets try this that has worked best for me on my Trawler and my other boat along with my Hunting weapons has been ( BullFrog ) " lubricant & rust blocker" they use something called VCI technology, I have found this stuff works on threads, Bolts, cables, and turnbuckles. Anyone that tells you a stainless weapon needs no care on a boat thats misinformation when push comes to shove i want my defense weapons to work. Not once but as many rounds as needed to protect me and my boat.

honeybadger said:

Being Retired from the Marines i have delt with this since 1983, the latest lets try this that has worked best for me on my Trawler and my other boat along with my Hunting weapons has been ( BullFrog ) " lubricant & rust blocker" they use something called VCI technology, I have found this stuff works on threads, Bolts, cables, and turnbuckles. Anyone that tells you a stainless weapon needs no care on a boat thats misinformation when push comes to shove i want my defense weapons to work. Not once but as many rounds as needed to protect me and my boat.

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I hope you didn't misinterpret NEARLY NO MAINTENANCE as none. I have had a stainless Ruger on my boat and in the salt air environment for nearly 30 years. Some years it was shot...many not. I cleaned it after shooting and other times not for years and yet it never has had a speck of rust or problems. Either I'm lucky or it's the weapon...either way...there are a few weapons made for this kind of servive or harsher that are up to the task even if maintained by someone with nowhere near your quals/abilities.

Ok everyone is talking about going north and bear country.. what about going south ?

Has anyone traveling in and through Mexico had problems carying a shotgun in that direction ? We are planning on heading that way within the next few years, and while I don't carry one even here in California, going that way, I am concerning it.

Before taking any advice on where to carry a weapon, ask the fair question " do you even own a gun now or how often do you shoot?". I suspect those who would say no to carry on a weapon don't usually handle, nor shoot nor CCW. I would guess that those most inclined to recommend a carry also own and carry CCW and shoot. It does matter to me. I would carry and I do.

For those who wonder why some of us carry a personal protection device, pistol or shotgun.
Can't say it never happens, but....
Man assaulted, shots fired in Shelter Cove Marina early Tuesday morning


Man assaulted, shots fired in Shelter Cove Marina early Tuesday morning | Bluffton Today

Gun storage

It's hard to beat a vacuum food saver bag. I sealed several long-guns and two pistols in bags for storage and keep one short barrel shotgun onboard for safety; works for ammo too. Cut a notch in the seal so if you ever need it you can quickly rip the bag open. 100% waterproof and visible for inspection!

expat said:

I have to ask as a UK citizen living in BC , why do you feel you need to carry firearms on board, I could understand if you were in pirate country [Mexico] or south america but ib US or Canadian water ?this is a genuine question as I do not understand the need.

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expat, several years ago I was anchored out in a fairly remote cove on the Columbia River. In the middle of the night I was awakened by the sound of a small outboard motor idling very close to my boat.

I got up and peered out and saw a small (14') boat with two guys in it. I watched as they circled my boat at a distance of about 10 yards. I couldn't see any fishing gear in the boat but it was too dark to be sure.

After circling my boat twice they idled off about 50 yards away and shut off the motor. No anchor dropped, no fishing gear deployed, etc. They were talking but I couldn't hear what they were saying because they talked in low tones.

After sitting there for about 10 minutes they started up the motor and left the area.

I have no idea what they were up to. They may have just been admiring the boat, but that was the last time I overnighted on the boat without having a handgun on board.

I've checked on Canadian laws and I can bring a shotgun into Canada but, as I understand it the ammo must be stored separate from the gun.

As to what load to keep on board for a shotgun, I'd recommend #4 buck. It has more pellets than 00 buck but doesn't over penetrate like 00 buck.

GFC said:

I've checked on Canadian laws and I can bring a shotgun into Canada but, as I understand it the ammo must be stored separate from the gun.

.

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To be legal the firearm's action must also be open whenever the firearm is being transported, which it is when it's on your boat.

Thanks Marin. I didn't know that.

GFC said:

Thanks Marin. I didn't know that.

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It's what our hunting guides in BC have always told us as well as the Canadian customs inspectors when we've checked in at the border on our hunting trips.

Marin said:

To be legal the firearm's action must also be open whenever the firearm is being transported, which it is when it's on your boat.

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Would the term "transported" with respect to a boat be underway, as separately distinguished from on a dock, moorage or anchor? If so, I can see separating ammo from gun and leaving the breach open when "transporting, ie: underway, but that's not practical when at anchor or dockside, which is more likely when something could happen where a weapon might be needed.

if you have a pump shotgun...combat loading takes care of an open action...at least on models I'm qualified in..

Marin said:

To be legal the firearm's action must also be open whenever the firearm is being transported, which it is when it's on your boat.

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Marin, the gun by federal law in Canada requires that it be either in a gun safe or have a trigger lock attached as well. I do both.

Storing, Transporting and Displaying Firearms - Royal Canadian Mounted Police

As with these sorts of things all over the world, what is written in the regulations and what a specific customs official says or does are often two totally different things. And unless you want to try to challenge the official in court, you are going to end up doing what the specific official tells you to do.

In every case I have been involved in, we were told by the Canadian customs person inspecting our firearms on entry into Canada that the actions of our rifles had to be empty and open when the firearm was being transported. Even riding around in the pickup on the way to our horses, when there is always a chance of seeing a moose, we had to hold the rifles with their actions open and with five (or whatever) rounds in our other hand.

The rifles we see in gun racks in vehicles, including lever actions like mine, have all had their actions open.

Even during our telephone clearances with customs when taking the floatplane across the border from SE Alaska into BC, the agent on the phone in Prince Rupert asks "Do you have a firearm?" (Yes.) "What is it? (I tell her.) "Is it loaded? (No.) "Is the action open? (Yes.) And then she moves on to fruit and liquor. I've gotten the same questions on the customs phone in Bedwell clearing into BC with the boat.

Whether this is written down in the regulations or not is sort of irrelevant unless you are in the mood to get into an argument with the customs official at which point your day will most likely take a turn for the worst.

Now it may be that they will accept a trigger lock as a substitute for an open action. The letter of the law would seem to say that. I don't like trigger locks and don't use them and this has never been questioned by the customs folks, but I also leave the actions open when I take my rifles or shotgun into BC. So far I've never had a problem. I do carry a trigger lock for each firearm just in case the official decides that's what he or she wants to see but they never have (so far).

With regards to the "is a gun in transit when it's on my boat that's tied to a dock" question, I have no idea. Since the interpretation of the law and the enforcement of that interpretation is totally up to the individual customs agent making the call, your best bet would be to call up customs and ask your question of them. Then at least you can say, "I called customs and this is what they told me," in the probably unlikely event that an official should question you about this.

I can see two possible interpretations here. One is that if you are not a Canadian resident, the fact you are in the country means you are "in transit" even if you're sitting on a park bench feeding the geese. The other is that when you are en route to the park bench you are "in transit" but once you get there and sit down you are no longer in transit.

In our experience, the interpretation has always been, "on the road." That applied to driving from the border to our guide's place near Williams Lake and riding in the pickup from the camp the several miles to our horses. In camp and on the horses the "unloaded and open action" rule (or interpretation) obviously does not apply as at that point we are actively hunting.

But whether it's here, in BC, China, the UAE, Brazil, you name it, I and my crew have long since learned that it makes no difference whatsoever what the regulations may say. The only thing that matters and affects how your life goes from that point on is how the individual agent chooses to interpret whatever the law says and how they apply their interpretation to you.

Marin...Anode's post #51's link

• 10. (1) An individual may transport a non-restricted firearm only if
  
  • (a) except in the case of a muzzle-loading firearm that is being transported between hunting sites, it is unloaded; and
  • (b) in the case of a muzzle-loading firearm that is being transported between hunting sites, its firing cap or flint is removed.
• (2) Subject to subsection (3), an individual may transport a non-restricted firearm in an unattended vehicle only if
  
  • (a) when the vehicle is equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the non-restricted firearm is in that trunk or compartment and the trunk or compartment is securely locked; and
  • (b) when the vehicle is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, the non-restricted firearm is not visible from outside the vehicle and the vehicle, or the part that contains the non-restricted firearm, is securely locked.
• (3) If, in a remote wilderness area that is not subject to any visible or otherwise reasonably ascertainable use incompatible with hunting, an individual is transporting a non-restricted firearm in an unattended vehicle that is not equipped with a trunk or similar compartment that can be securely locked, and the vehicle or the part of it that contains the non-restricted firearm cannot be securely locked, the individual shall ensure that the non-restricted firearm
  
  • (a) is not visible; and
  • (b) is rendered inoperable by a secure locking device, unless the individual reasonably requires the non-restricted firearm for the control of predators.
    
    I didn't see anything about gun safe or trigger lock for non-restricted firearms...which the average hunting long gun or shotgun I would guess is.
    

Marin said:

But whether it's here, in BC, China, the UAE, Brazil, you name it, I and my crew have long since learned that it makes no difference whatsoever what the regulations may say. The only thing that matters and affects how your life goes from that point on is how the individual agent chooses to interpret whatever the law says and how they apply their interpretation to you.

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I was only attempting to inform everyone traveling into Canada what the actual law IS and which is STRICTLY enforced in Ontario, can't speak for British Columbia or to your point, individual officers. If you or anyone else wants to take a chance on not knowing or abiding by the laws of countries they are passing through then that's up to you.

Not saying to not know the law or to attempt to adhere to it. Just saying that what the law says and what the enforcing official(s) say can be and very often is totally different. And if the officials' interpretation of the law is consistent enough to become the de facto law as we've experienced with the open-action thing, that's what you had better be prepared to adhere to.

Thanks GFC for your reply, understood.