Engine overheating

A while back I posted a few of the issues I discovered on my trawler in the return cruise. I'm still having issues with over heating in my stbd engine. (Perkins 6 cyl 135).
I changed the impeller out and I replaced the coolant. Engine then went into repair for a fuel injector leak.
Now fuel pump replaced and today went for a short cruise. Engine was 3 gallons low on CoolAnt! Put new Coolant in and started engine. Noticed coolant was going straight out the engine exhaust. Water was green. So I went out under idle to run her a bit because I wasn't sure how much I lost but didn't seen like too much and engine temp was steady.
Noticed temps starting to climb so came back into marina. Engine went to shutdown when trying to dock and I ended up taking another slip due to wind conditions.
Now I am trouble shooting it.
Thoughts?!?
Engine oil is black. Don't think it's a head issue and I didn't run it past high temp alarm

Blue Heron said:

Thoughts?!?

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It is good to make most of your mistakes early.

Heat exchanger.

Don't know anything about Perkins but assume heat exchanger is like others and the coolant going out the exhaust suggest you have a leak in the heat exchanger as was noted by Giggiton and you are losing coolant.

Giggitoni said:

Heat exchanger.

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I agree.

Forkliftt said:

I agree.

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Ditto.... If your 6.354's are standard, as in no conversion kit on them that has replaced any factory original equipment as far as the heat exchanger, then that is about the only place where coolant can escape to the exhaust... at least that I know of.

Standard with no mods. Should I take the whole assembly apart or just drain and remove element and clean with muratic acid?

How can I be sure it's not the Head Gasket?

Won't hold coolant when I start up. It gets pissed right out the wet exhaust.

More than likely when you remove the heat exchanger you will find that it will need replacement because the coolant is flowing into the raw water, a bad thing... Do you have coolant in your oil?

If the problem was with the head gasket I would expect to see a lot of white smoke/steam in the exhaust.

Marin said:

If the problem was with the head gasket I would expect to see a lot of white smoke/steam in the exhaust.

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True. And with so much coolant loss if it were a head gasket you might hydro lock your engine when it filled up a cylinder. You are not seing any of those symptoms I hope. A radiator shop can test your HE if you bring it to them so you can confirm that is the problem.

How can I be sure it's not the Head Gasket?

R&R injectors on this engine requires no extra work (like re-timing) so remove the injectors and borrow a DIESEL compression gauge.

Will instantly show weather the head is leaking , and the individual cylinder pressures should go in the maint log book.

IF it is the heat exchanger (best guess) and you have 2 engines of the same age,,,,,,,,,,,,?

FF

Forkliftt said:

True. And with so much coolant loss if it were a head gasket you might hydro lock your engine when it filled up a cylinder. You are not seing any of those symptoms I hope. A radiator shop can test your HE if you bring it to them so you can confirm that is the problem.

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The OP's original description begs a few more questions:

Engine was 3 gallons low on CoolAnt!

Where did that coolant go? Is it in the bilge? If not, is the raw water pump impeller so worn that it went out an open seacock? If not then how did it climb above the height of the exhaust injection point?

Put new Coolant in and started engine.

Noticed coolant was going straight out the engine exhaust. Water was green.

Points toward massive failure of the heat exchangerbut doesn't answer first question.

So I went out under idle to run her a bit

Really really bad idea!

Noticed temps starting to climb

Could there be any other result?

Engine went to shutdown when trying to dock

Do you have a high temperature shutdown system installed (highly unlikely) or do you mean the engine seized and stopped?If you have a high temp shutdown, what is the setting?Did the engine slow down and stop over a few seconds, or did it stop suddenly?

Engine oil is black.

Was it black before this event and is it black now after playing with it a bit?

Don't think it's a head issue and I didn't run it past high temp alarm

It may not have been a head issue before the "sea trial" but it couild well be now. The temperature report doesn't follow if the engine stopped due to a high temperature shutdown signal ... that would be far higher than the alarm level. There is only one way (aside from a faulty temp sender and alarm setting) that the events and conditions described could occur ...

Where is the temperature sender mounted? If the coolant level goes low and the sender element is uncovered it cannot read coolant temperature can it? Is the sender mounted on the header tank? Is that tank surrounded by air?

Forklift, I am not seeing any signs of hydro lock. Engine starts immediatley and idles fine it is only when under a load do I see the rising temp.

Rick B, to answer your questions:
1. The coolant appears to be leaving via the wet exhaust. I noticed a LARGE ammount of discharge in the water from that wet exhasut.
2. It is not seen or detected in the oil. Oil is not higher than normal level nor is it milky.
3. NEW impeller in and I pulled the cover and looked at it and it normal. Sea water strainer is normal and no coolant seen in strainer.
4. 8 Gallons is the capacity on my perkins for coolant.
5. YES it does have a high temp shut down sensor and it auto shut down at about 240 degrees.
6. I need to locate the sensor to determine where exactly it is located.

Oil still looks good. I am hopeful the head gasket is still good and this is heat exchanger issue.

exhaust

Marin, didnt see any unusual exhaust except the coolant going out.
no large white smoke a little perhaps but not much

On a related note my mechanic showed up and my Mani-cooler is shot. Turns out corrosion in the core element combined with a angled down riser allowed a hole to corrode through the element. There was sludge everywhere. The coolant pressure test revealed a pressure issue in the aft end of the coolant.

Need to order a new bundle Mani-cooler.

I can only go by what you wrote and what Perkins states in its manuals.

But I am very comfortable stating that automatic shutdown of a recreational marine propulsion diesel is virtually unheard of.

It is a feature on your engine when it is used to drive a generator but even the largest most expensive propulsion diesel engines on the planet will only shutdown automatically on loss of lube oil pressure to a few critical parts.

High temperature will slow them down and sound an alarm and even that can be over-ridden to ensure full power is available "no matter what" when the ship is maneuvering in close quarters where loss of power can lead to a disaster far greater than destroying an engine.

The "more to the story" comment is based on your statement that the temperature never rose above the alarm level followed by a later statement that the engine shut down automatically at 240*. Is your temp alarm set at the same temp as the shutdown?

When that engine is used as a radiator cooled generator the shutdown temperature is just over 200*F So, like I wrote, there is more to the story than we know about.

Need to order a new bundle Mani-cooler. __________________

How many propulsion engines does the boat have?

FF

FF
I have 2 engines.

Rick
I am done explaining this to you. Stop trying to allude that there is some thing "more to the story". It's offensive.

Blue Heron said:

Rick
I am done explaining this to you. Stop trying to allude that there is some thing "more to the story". It's offensive.

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Wow, why so touchy?

I love learning about engines and boats. Your setup sounds like something I have never seen or heard about so I am interested. Why not share information about what could be a unique setup?

There are a couple of other Perkins users here, at least one with the turbo version so maybe they will chime in with more info on how theirs are configured.

I'm sure that I am not the only person here who would like to know. Isn't that the purpose of the forum? Why did you post anything at all if it just makes you angry to write about your boat and engines or answer questions that might help someone else in the future?

If your alarm and shutdown are at the same point, which is what you described and is more of the story that is untold, then you should tell your mechanic so he can reset them with a wider span so that the alarm actually tells you something other than your engine just quit.

Did the boat builder install the shutdown or was it a refit at some point? What temperature is the alarm setting? The shutdown setting?

You wrote that you left the dock with the engine idling and pumping green coolant overboard, did the engine ever go above idle?

Rick,
The only person you are impressing is yourself. You have contributed nothing to my question except acrimony.

Blue Heron said:

Rick
I am done explaining this to you. Stop trying to allude that there is some thing "more to the story". It's offensive.

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I see you're removed your other post complaining about Rick's response but I read it before you removed it.

When you make a post on a public forum, you have to expect some responses that you may not like. If you leave out important details, the only responses you can possibly get are either guesses or requests for the additional information.

Also, if you've done something that would seem to be unwise (such as leaving the dock knowing that you had a coolant leak), you can expect to be called out on that decision.

If you're going to post on public forums, it's best to put on your "Big Girl" panties first.

Ron, I didnt remove my post, The Moderator, Gonzo, Did.
I didnt take any issue with his comment about leaving the dock and that is up for debate if it was an unwise decision. I took issue with Rick over his rudeness and continued cherry picking and insinuation that for some reason I was lying about my circumstances or omitting something of which both would serve no purpose and defy logic as I orginally posted to seek the advice of the group. Out of the replies almost ALL had a recommended Course of Action (ie. the Heat Exchanger) while Rick chose to cherry pick my post and offered nothing in the value of a recommendation.

I dont have a soft skin and can pull up my big boy panties just fine, but I dont feel it is in the spirit of the forum to nitpick the original poster who is seeking assistance. I am sure if you read Ricks attempts to show all of us that he is the smartest guy in the room, you will see he offered no solution, only stupid questions and accusations.

"More than likely when you remove the heat exchanger you will find that it will need replacement because the coolant is flowing into the raw water, a bad thing... Do you have coolant in your oil?
__________________
Ray "


Ray that is exactly what we found. Good Call. Thanks.

Blue Heron said:

Out of the replies almost ALL had a recommended Course of Action (ie. the Heat Exchanger) while Rick chose to cherry pick my post and offered nothing in the value of a recommendation.

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A recommendation offered without as much information as possible is a guess. It might be correct, but it might also obscure a different issue.

Watching coolant pour out of your exhaust is pretty much a no brainer as far as placing the heat exhanger at the top of the suspect list but the other factors described lead a practiced troubleshooter to look a little deeper. You might choose to call it "cherry picking" for reasons beyond my understanding but I look at it as troubleshooting and looking for what may be hidden behind the obvious.

Considering your responses to date, I could care less what happens to your engine and bank account in the future. Knowing what happened to you in the recent past may save someone else a great deal of time and money and I do care about that otherwise I wouldn't bother.

Trust me, I don't need to impress anyone in a recreational trawler thread, I make my living impressing a different demographic that is not part of this audience. I am here because I have owned big and small boats and also own a trawler. I enjoy discussing the technical aspects of operating and maintaining one. I look at this as "giving back" a lot of what others have given me, nothing more, nothing less.

Very seldom will I offer a recommendation without asking relevant questions (some of which might seem irrelevant) first. And I become curious when the story changes or additional bits are added that are at odds with the original description. There is nearly always a "rest of the story" that goes untold when something like this happens.

RickB said:

A recommendation offered without as much information as possible is a guess. It might be correct, but it might also obscure a different issue................

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A point I tried to make.

It's easy to throw out suggestions, but without proper troubleshooting, and proper information, any attempt at repair is likely to result in additional expense as items are replaced one by one until the problem is solved.

I'm still looking for the "rude" stuff ...

FWIW this was in one of Rick's first posts to this discussion, post #12.

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Put new Coolant in and started engine. Noticed coolant was going straight out the engine exhaust. Water was green.

Points toward massive failure of the heat exchanger but doesn't answer first question.
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So Rick did offer his opinion on what the problem most likely was but wanted additional information since with marine engines there are often multiple causes for a particular symptom as most of us have learned over the years. A key in troubleshooting is to eliminate causes for a symptom until you're left with just one, which to paraphrase Sherlock Holmes, no matter how improbable it may seem must be the solution.

But to do that you need as much information about the "case" as one can get. Hence, I think, Rick's continued request for more information. Don't forget, unlike most or all of us, Rick makes his living troubleshooting and fixing propulsion, power generation, and other vessel systems so it's to be expected that he would approach trying to diagnose this particular problem the way he's used to doing it on someone's 200' megayacht.

I suspect I'd get the same kind of probing for every possible bit of information if I asked one of our senior flight line mechanics for advice on a perplexing problem I was having with an old de Havilland Beaver.

PALEASE!! I'm not the only guy here aware of RickB's out of line responses. Just as I'm pretty sure that BH doesn't have history of throwing comments out, being called on it- then pouting for awhile away from the site before REPEATING the cycle yet again. And Gonzo- if you want to be a moderator here- then do it fair and balanced. If you want to have a RickB fan club, start your own site. This is a SHARED online community and everyone brings something to the table.

RickB said:

I'm still looking for the "rude" stuff ...

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I am with Rick on this one.

I have learned that when Rick comments on something it is backed up with fact. You can pretty much count on it.

It is a diagnosis not a guessing game.

Hard to trouble shoot with big pieces of the puzzle missing.

You can always throw parts at the problem untill it works or trouble shoot the issue and fix it right the first time.



SD