Boat flip

JAT said:

... How do you justify the death of 3 children? ...

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Jat, who do you see justifying the deaths? You're making a lot of presumptions/assumptions. To begin with, we know nothing about the skipper except he has a new boat and demonstrated an instance of poor judgment resulting in deaths.

A very sad event, made worse if it resulted from avoidable operator error, as seems highly possible.It is risky to speculate without all the facts,but if my IG36 had 27 onboard I`m sure the handling would be grossly altered and be susceptible to sea conditions which would otherwise be a non issue.
Trouble is,the inexperienced skipper does not know what he does not know, and easily falls into error, but you`d think commonsense would come into play.
In Sydney all boats are required to carry a sticker near the helm setting out the maximum number of persons who may be aboard. Maritime here uses the slogan "you`re the skipper,you`re responsible" (ie. "we, Maritime,are not"); when I asked for a replacement sticker they sent a blank one and told me to work out the limit myself!
BruceK

BruceK said:

... when I asked for a replacement sticker they sent a blank one and told me to work out the limit myself!

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Bruce, little doubt you'll use sound judgment.

Question for all. Do any of you have factory provided signage on your boat that states a rated capacity?

NAHHHH,

If the USN thought it was fine to operate daily with 150 Pax and 3 crew , it works for me.

FF

I have never had more than two people on board away from the dock.
Steve W

My Clipper (CHB) 34 has an 'official' maritime safety sticker on the helm side window saying max 12 persons and no more than 3 at one time on the flybridge, so that gives you an idea how overloaded that craft was. Very sad, and so needless.

I found Coot's "P"

The Eastland Disaster happened on July 24, 1915 when a chartered ship overturned in the Chicago River after pushing off killing 844 people. The vessel listed to port due to a recent required addition of extra life boats and the uneven distribution of 2500 passengers on one side looking out over the river.

The Eastland Disaster, July 23, 1915, Chicago River, Chicago, Illinois

There are many contribution factors including overloading, open ports and the crew attempting to stabilize the ship by adding water to the ballast tanks. The ship had a history of instability as well.

Lesson here is to understand your boats loading and stability, and be very cautious when taking on any extra loads.

Peter B said:

My Clipper (CHB) 34 has an 'official' maritime safety sticker on the helm side window saying max 12 persons and no more than 3 at one time on the flybridge, so that gives you an idea how overloaded that craft was. Very sad, and so needless.

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Peter, ours is a similar boat, and we've had six on the flybridge under way on a number of occasions... day trips, raft-ups, etc. on the peaceful calm waters of the Pamlico River. Never had any concerns about stability.. then again, we don't have anything to look at that might cause everyone to rush to one rail at the same time.

Happy hours, tied up.. hmm.. who counts? Maybe a couple more. After all, many of these old TT 34's were designed with built-in seating for six , not counting deck chairs.

Has anyone ever heard of one of these boats capsizing due to overloading?

I agree 3 is conservative, as the boats are 8-9 tons, after all. However, I use that as a reason to keep people from all trooping up there, and in any kind of sea it would be a safe limit - in calm conditions or at anchor I'd allow 4-5 at a pinch.

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. markpierce. By any chance did your "p" go over the side?

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Mr. RT, do you think we should move this conversation to the "Do you flush. . . . . " thread?

I ran across this analysis on another forum of the July 4th capsizing incident on Long Island Sound, Town of Oyster Bay. While it is technical, there is a lot of good information for boaters to consider when taking on larger than normal passenger loads. I'm not aware this article has surfaced here on the TF, so here it is.

Analysis of a capsizing

Marin said:

I agree with you. While I've heard all the arguments against it, and of course there is the costly bureaucracy that would have to be created to administer it, it's always seemed a bit bizzarre that a person needs training and a license to operate a plane or helicopter, training (formal or otherwise) and a license to operate a vehicle or motorcycle, a certificate to scuba dive----- yet all a person needs to operate a 60' boat is the money to buy it.

While the easy argument is that licensing won't prevent accidents, it doesn't prevent accidents in vehicles or planes either. Stupid is as stupid does.

But what training and licensing do accomplish is awareness. An idiot is going to be one no matter what, but if he or she has been exposed to the dangers of certain circumstances, or at least has been shown how to do things correctly, the odds of them making a mistake out of ignorance or following through on a dumb idea--- like putting 27 people on a 34' foot, lightweight boat with only ten or so lifejackets---- go way down.

There is no way to ensure absolute safety, and I'm not an advocate of bending over backwards trying to do so. I'm a fan of Chuck Darwin and I don't get all weepy over people doing dumb things and killing themselves. But so often these dumb things tend to kill other people who had no hand in being dumb. Like this recent incident. The owner is just fine. It's the three kids that paid the price for his ignorance or stupidity or both.

From the boating accidents that happen all over the country every year it's obvious that boats can be just as dangerous as planes, trains, and automobiles. And while one could say the number of boating accidents doesn't begin to approach the number of vehicle accidents, tell that to the parents of the three kids who drowned because a boater didn't have the sense or the training to know how many was too many for his boat.

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I couldn't have put it any better.

The best and only thing that "licensing" has done in many states is provide a means for the state to take away a priviledge if it is being abused...in other words put teeth into some laws or fines that some people would just buy their way out of or be repeat offenders.

From a true safety standpoint it has done very little where I see it has been implemented...but I would love to see many more of the "arrogant" boaters who abuse their boating priviledge get it snatched away from them.

Great Laker said:

I ran across this analysis on another forum of the July 4th capsizing incident on Long Island Sound...

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Awesome analysis - thanks for the pointer!

psneeld said:

but I would love to see many more of the "arrogant" boaters who abuse their boating priviledge get it snatched away from them.

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Based on my time on the water, it's the speed boats, weekenders (me being one eons ago) that have bothered to learn much of anything before hitting the water...that being open ocean to lakes and rivers.

Take their boat away, impound it, for 60 - 90 days, or 6 months, or longer, and see if they straighten up.

I do think that the larger, and more expensive the boat, the more interest the owner/operator has in safety of their vessel and occupants.

Rambler said:

Based on my time on the water, it's the speed boats, weekenders (me being one eons ago) that have bothered to learn much of anything before hitting the water...that being open ocean to lakes and rivers.

Take their boat away, impound it, for 60 - 90 days, or 6 months, or longer, and see if they straighten up.

I do think that the larger, and more expensive the boat, the more interest the owner/operator has in safety of their vessel and occupants.

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Not really...arrogance seems to span the wealth span...as well as every other category....

Weekenders, commercials, rich, poor, locals, out of towners...sail, power, fast, slow...doesn't matter...there's always that cut of person that thinks their "stuff" don't stink and they do whatever they want, whenever they want regardless of who they inconvenience, hurt, kill....etc.

And I'm on or near the water every day, all day.

markpierce said:

Jat, who do you see justifying the deaths? You're making a lot of presumptions/assumptions. To begin with, we know nothing about the skipper except he has a new boat and demonstrated an instance of poor judgment resulting in deaths.

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I did not see anyone actually "justifying the deaths".....but what I very often hear from people is: Oh darn, now they're going to take another "right" away from us!! I think, perhaps in my sometimes convoluted and tangental way of thinking that people often declare that licensing boat operators is a way of taking away a "right"...... But like at least one other here on this site, I have always found it amazing that there is literally ZERO requirements for any kind of safety training for boaters...and yes...any fool with the money can buy a huge boat and go for it.... Just like any fool can go out and buy a rather large RV....the day after getting their drivers license...and "WHAHOOOO"...we being off and travelin'!

True, I am making presumptions about the "captain" of that boat. Was he freakin' brain dead?? 27 souls on a 34' boat?? Come now.... Its obvious this fool had absolutely not one lick of common sense, and even less safety training or grip on reality!! Would licensing this fool have prevented this accident....maybe or even probably not....but then, there is that slim chance that in this bozo's case...that he would have manned up and told the mob.... "I can't take that many people for safety reasons!"... Or he would not have invited so many people.

I also find it hard to believe that in that part of the planet....yeah, I know I'm wrong on this one because of geography, but I would have thought there might be one boater who would have spotted the grossly overloaded boat and made a discreet call to the USCG or water cops and mumbled about a potential accident waiting to happen...and I wonder why it was that no LEO spotted the mob on the boat...unless in fact he did leave the dock in the dark....

Down here in FL..."bowriding" on any boat is illegal....but yet you still see "mummy and dada" letting the monsters do it. I'm not sure if they are hoping the crumbsnatchers will fall in and get chopped up by the props or just drown.... But then it seems the LEO's don't clamp down on it either.

You can bet...that so far as I am concerned...the "captain" of that boat should be literally "keelhauled" several times.....