Boat flip

Heard on the news this morning that a 34' boat (Silverton) turned over in Long Island Sound (I think) last night. Three kids drowned. IIRC were 27 people on the boat, I assume out watching fireworks.

Official speculation on the flip is a) overloading, b) some mechanical or other system failure, d) a wake.

27 people on a 34 foot boat according to the report I read. It seems unlikely the designer anticipated that kind of a loading. But it shouldn't surprise anyone - idiots abound on the water. Unfortunately their kids pay the Darwinian penalty in this case.

Bess and I discussed this while I took her to the airport this morning. It would be nice if people read the max passenger signage and followed by it. I'll bet insurance will not be covering this.

**EDIT** I found this @ AOL: The 34-foot Silverton yacht was made in 1984 but was "a very recent purchase," he said... the boat should have had a life jacket for each person on board. But authorities could not determine if the boat had 27 life jackets because the vessel remained under water. Police said it capsized and then drifted a bit before it sank in about 60 feet of water.

Can you imagine 27 people on this?
http://www.yachtworld.com/core/list...791/Stamford/CT/United-States&boat_id=2262791

Tom-

I saw that on my homepage this morning. Sad ending for sure. I just read an update that the owner said the boat was hit by a "rogue wave" after a thunderstorm passed over. Looking at the boat (www.silverton34.com/home.html) I can't see how you could possibly get 27 people on that boat! With that much weight (I am guessing at least 5,000 lbs of people and gear), doesn't seem like it would take much of a "rogue wave" to get a gunwale, especially around the cockpit, in the water.

GonzoF1 said:

Can you imagine 27 people on this?
View Boat Photos - YachtWorld.com

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And "on" is a key word here - when I've taken people out for fireworks (or to watch the Blue Angels at SeaFair) the young ones migrate to the highest parts of my boat.

They were probably sitting on top of the radar arch on that boat! <shudder>

Heard on one newscast that the boat was a very recent purchase...surmise from that what you may.

Usually firworks are some distance away, and not in a 360 degree pattern. Imagine a 34' boat overloaded with 27 people. The boat could probably have enough bouyancy to support the weight if it was well distributed, and the boat was handled slowly and carefully.

Now imagine the same boat when 27 people were all on one side watching fireworks. Crazy. The poor kids were supposed to be under the care of adults. That is criminal.

A similar situation occurred in Calabougie Sound off Hilton Head. A 50' Marine Trader that was used in charter service for cruises and dolphin watching flipped. No deaths, but about 50 prople went into the water Luckily the water was fairly shallow, and the boat was on its side but not totally under.. They were mostly on the top deck and ran to one side to see the dolphins. The boat was raised and brought into Palmetto Bay by Majers Diving and Salvage. It stayed there while work was being done. Don't know what finally happened to the boat.

GonzoF1 said:

It would be nice if people read the max passenger signage and followed by it.

Tom-

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Question for all. Do any of you have factory provided signage on your boat that states a rated capacity?

My dinghy has one - 8 passengers!
Nautica International

I've had 5 on it for a short hop on Lake Union and felt it was marginal - I can't even imagine where the other 3 would have sat.

CPseudonym said:

Question for all. Do any of you have factory provided signage on your boat that states a rated capacity?

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I do not. There used to be a decal that, I believe, listed a maximum of six persons on the flybridge, but that was faded away before I bought the boat.

Personally, I do not need signs to tell me what is stupid or dangerous and what is not. Through education and life experience, I can figure these things out on my own.

For example, if I buy a cup of coffee, I assume it will be hot, I don't need a sign or label to tell me.

I have labels on the windows in my house warning me that "Open windows can be dangerous."

GonzoF1 said:

...... It would be nice if people read the max passenger signage and followed by it. I'll bet insurance will not be covering this.

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Insurance will cover this accident. Just because you do something stupid doesn't mean you are not still covered by your insurance policy. If it did, they would never have to pay a claim.

edit: The owner's liability may exceed the policy limits with three deaths and multiple injuries, but he will be covered up to those limits.

Yea... I guess y'all are right about that.

rwidman said:

Insurance will cover this accident. Just because you do something stupid doesn't mean you are not still covered by your insurance policy. If it did, they would never have to pay a claim.

edit: The owner's liability may exceed the policy limits with three deaths and multiple injuries, but he will be covered up to those limits.

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You can believe that the damage award will exceed insurance limits. This guy will be financially ruined. I know of a SeaRay dealer that was doing well, but had to sell the business to settle an over insurance limit award.

I know someone cruising a large Krogen today because a business partner had to sell cheaply to settle the same. If there are any assets, they will be attached.

One thing to seriously think about when you invite guests abord your boat is the possibility of an accident and the possibility of you being held financially responsible.

We may not like to think about it, but when someone dies or is seriously or permanently injured, friendships may dissolve. If your fishing buddy can't support his family any more, he or his widow is going to be looking for some way to support his family and if you were in any way even remotely responsible, you will be on the hook.

Around here, and some places I have traveled, boats are expected to raft to docks (restaurant, public, and such). Sometimes they are three or four deep.

Aside from possible damage to your boat if someone rafts to it, and the dirt and mud they may drag aboard, what happens if an univited stranger from a boat rafted to yours without your express permission were to slip and fall into the water from your boat and drown or become crushed between your boat and another?

You might win the lawsuit, but you will have to defend yourself.

rwidman said:

You might win the lawsuit, but you will have to defend yourself.

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That is a really big advantage of being insured. Having the insurance company cover the expense of defending the law suit.

CPseudonym said:

Question for all. Do any of you have factory provided signage on your boat that states a rated capacity?

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In California at least, only single-hulled motorboats less than 20 feet in length manufactured after 1972 must display capacity and safe-horsepower information.

Required:



Not required:

Wow this is awful. I think we've discussed before, even on a boat w a passenger limit posted, it's based on much lighter people than your average American today.

We've had thirteen people on our 35' trawler and I found it very stressful to "mind" that many people, especially with a few young kids wandering around. Guess a lot of it is mind set. I want to know my guests are safe and enjoying themselves. Maybe that's why I'd rather be out w just myself and Matt!

We have an umbrella liability policy, more because if anything ever happened to anyone "on our watch" we'd be devastated and would want to be able to provide something financially. We knew someone whose mast came down (sailboat) and paralyzed his friend/ crew. The skipper had minimal insurance. We got the umbrella right after that.

You should not have to have a plaque to tell you the 27 people on a 34' boat is overloaded. With minimial experience a reasonable person could feel the major change in behavior of the boat.

I have run a couple of these boats,Silverton and Lurs 34'flybridge. They are tender to start with,lightly built and in no way designed to handle that load. USCG now says the average American weighs 185lbs.Thus you are adding just under 5,ooo lbs. You don't need a plaque to tell you not good. The Lures 34 I ran, would become tender with 5 people on the bridge. Wonder how many were on the bridge, sides etc.

This is not an accident,this is careless stupid behavior.

John

The owner is claiiming a "rogue wave" flipped his boat. Given that there were a lot of other boats in the immediate area, some of which were close enough to start pulling people out of the water right away, it should be easy enough to determine if there was any sort of abnormal wave or not.

Sortie said:

You should not have to have a plaque to tell you the 27 people on a 34' boat is overloaded. With minimial experience a reasonable person could feel the major change in behavior of the boat.

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Most I've had on board is five and wouldn't feel comfortable with more than six, including myself on the 14-ton Coot during a day (not overnight) trip.

We've had eight (including my wife and I) on the boat and while it posed no problems even during a rough-ish crossing of Rosario Strait, we would not carry any more than that. We limited the number of people on the flying bridge at any one time to six. When it was rough nobody wanted to ride up there, anyway.

No one is allowed on top while the Coot is underway.



Anyone see my missing "p".

markpierce said:

No one is allowed on top while the Coot is underway.

Anyone see my missing "p".

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Is it in your head?

Ours is 44' with an ample aft/sundeck.... we've had a couple of parties on her, and had I think about 20-22 people aboard....but we were at the dock and secure.... and I have even cut parties short when the drinking gets too heavy.....

The crying shame of it is that "children paid the ultimate price for the folly of the adults"!!

Even though I might anger some people... I often think that "licensing" recreational boat owners might not be a bad idea......

JAT said:

I often think that "licensing" recreational boat owners might not be a bad idea......

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Don't see how that would have avoided the tragedy.

Greetings,
Mr. markpierce. By any chance did your "p" go over the side?

markpierce said:

Don't see how that would have avoided the tragedy.

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Sir, with all due respect... I think that a well educated and knowledgeable boater who has proven his proven his or her qualifications would have been more prudent than to have overloaded a 34' boat with 27 souls. There is no guarantee of that....but one can hope. There is so much stupidity that happens on the waters...and it seems that many Darwin awards are given out...but sadly...to the wrong people.

How do you justify the death of 3 children? And no, I am not a tree hugging whiny panzy wuss liberal feces eating moron....but I am a safe boater who happens to be a grandfather...who would do anything humanly possible to protect my precious passengers!!

JAT said:

Sir, with all due respect... I think that a well educated and knowledgeable boater who has proven his proven his or her qualifications would have been more prudent than to have overloaded a 34' boat with 27 souls. There is no guarantee of that....but one can hope. There is so much stupidity that happens on the waters...and it seems that many Darwin awards are given out...but sadly...to the wrong people.

How do you justify the death of 3 children? And no, I am not a tree hugging whiny panzy wuss liberal feces eating moron....but I am a safe boater who happens to be a grandfather...who would do anything humanly possible to protect my precious passengers!!

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Completely agree, at very least one should have to pass Power Squadron or equivalent. We need a licence to drive a car, how is this so different?

Boydster said:

Completely agree, at very least one should have to pass Power Squadron or equivalent. We need a licence to drive a car, how is this so different?

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I completely agree. Perhaps a Power Squadron or USCGA course would have educated this new boater that accidentally killed three kids? Perhaps not.

The point is a lot of experienced boaters feel what he did was criminal. If he had ANY training whatsoever, they may have had a valid point.

JAT said:

Even though I might anger some people... I often think that "licensing" recreational boat owners might not be a bad idea......

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I agree with you. While I've heard all the arguments against it, and of course there is the costly bureaucracy that would have to be created to administer it, it's always seemed a bit bizzarre that a person needs training and a license to operate a plane or helicopter, training (formal or otherwise) and a license to operate a vehicle or motorcycle, a certificate to scuba dive----- yet all a person needs to operate a 60' boat is the money to buy it.

While the easy argument is that licensing won't prevent accidents, it doesn't prevent accidents in vehicles or planes either. Stupid is as stupid does.

But what training and licensing do accomplish is awareness. An idiot is going to be one no matter what, but if he or she has been exposed to the dangers of certain circumstances, or at least has been shown how to do things correctly, the odds of them making a mistake out of ignorance or following through on a dumb idea--- like putting 27 people on a 34' foot, lightweight boat with only ten or so lifejackets---- go way down.

There is no way to ensure absolute safety, and I'm not an advocate of bending over backwards trying to do so. I'm a fan of Chuck Darwin and I don't get all weepy over people doing dumb things and killing themselves. But so often these dumb things tend to kill other people who had no hand in being dumb. Like this recent incident. The owner is just fine. It's the three kids that paid the price for his ignorance or stupidity or both.

From the boating accidents that happen all over the country every year it's obvious that boats can be just as dangerous as planes, trains, and automobiles. And while one could say the number of boating accidents doesn't begin to approach the number of vehicle accidents, tell that to the parents of the three kids who drowned because a boater didn't have the sense or the training to know how many was too many for his boat.