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The above posting is correct , but the problem is most owners will not do maint till forced to.

Sealant has a limited life , but few owners will rip out the windows to reseal them if there NOT leaking.

Sadly human nature is the demise of the "Chinese Composite" of many TT, a thin layer of glass poly stuck on a sheet of house ply.

When the sealants go , the repair is frequently beyond the value of the vessel.

So the owners goop till some leaks stop , and continue to enjoy cottaging aboard.

This actually works just fine for decades , just never take one of these boats into an offshore situation. One comber landing on board may remove too much boat.

FF
 
Wow, a lot of information and more confusion. First as suggested I have used the Rinker at slow speeds and have had no problems, 7 knots a little slow and 9 knots perfect as long as steering is positive. The Rinker at 7 knots or 9 is a constant challenge to stay the course. Steering is also very hard. Maybe power steering is not working well. I am planning to check the pump this weekend. The attraction to a trowler is better seakeeping, economical operation and much more accessable components for maintenance. But, add the extensive windows and wood molding that is appears leak (The clipper I am looking at showes signs of window leakage in one spot. Not bad iut quick fix was a layer of fiberglass cloth at bottom edge of window.) add extensively to the maintenance. If this type of repair is simply a matter of removing and resealing that doesn't seem extremely oppressive. Assuming the plywood is not rotted. I guess I should say the preventive doesn't seem too bad. I know have two engines and everything takes twice as long and worst of all not easily accessable. Looked at a couple of Albins and they had soft decks and extensive windo leaks. I assume the house it probably rotted. Found two Mainships both with soft deck areas in the stern. Both owners told me this is common. Didn't know Bayliner made a trowler. Single engine diesel? Will look into Bertram. My bet is the amount I want to spend for a boat will limit me to the 80's boats, which by the way I think are cosmetically beautiful to look at. I assume most of the 80's boats were built with the same methods and suffer from the same problems.

Ken
 
Hoping to show my wife the Clipper this weekend. First she must like the setup. The rest is in my hands. I will take a closer look at the windo that shows signs of leakage. Of course a survey will be done but if I find excessive moisture then I will save myself the expense of a survey on that boat.
Ken
PS sorry about the typos in the above post
 
kpinnn said:
Wow, a lot of information and more confusion. First as suggested I have used the Rinker at slow speeds and have had no problems, 7 knots a little slow and 9 knots perfect as long as steering is positive. The Rinker at 7 knots or 9 is a constant challenge to stay the course. Steering is also very hard. Maybe power steering is not working well. I am planning to check the pump this weekend. The attraction to a trowler is better seakeeping, economical operation and much more accessable components for maintenance. But, add the extensive windows and wood molding that is appears leak (The clipper I am looking at showes signs of window leakage in one spot. Not bad iut quick fix was a layer of fiberglass cloth at bottom edge of window.) add extensively to the maintenance. If this type of repair is simply a matter of removing and resealing that doesn't seem extremely oppressive. Assuming the plywood is not rotted. I guess I should say the preventive doesn't seem too bad. I know have two engines and everything takes twice as long and worst of all not easily accessable. Looked at a couple of Albins and they had soft decks and extensive windo leaks. I assume the house it probably rotted. Found two Mainships both with soft deck areas in the stern. Both owners told me this is common. Didn't know Bayliner made a trowler. Single engine diesel? Will look into Bertram. My bet is the amount I want to spend for a boat will limit me to the 80's boats, which by the way I think are cosmetically beautiful to look at. I assume most of the 80's boats were built with the same methods and suffer from the same problems.

Ken
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Most 80's vintage trawlers are gonna cost you a lot more than the asking price unless you are in the top tier of the market prices.

When I was looking at 38-43 footers the price range was from maybe $40-$120,000. I got mine just under $60,000 with a 2 year old 135 Lehman. If I had a yard do my bottom, fix the windows and decks....it would have easily cost $60,000. Now add tank removal and replacement in the next couple years (not leaking but pretty rusty) and a few other projects and I would have been better off with one of the more expensive ones where the PO paid the big costs.

BUT...I'm doing the work myself and it should only cost me for the bottom, all new windows and decks...$10-$15,000. But most people aren't comfortable with that level of work.

Hopefully when I am done I will have split the difference in cost between the really clean trawlers (with unknown problems) and what I paid/invested...and I know I will have a boat that is closer to new...and better than factory in many areas.

So unless you are REALLY handy...older Taiwan trawlers can be a roll of the dice. And DON'T think a surveyor will catch the big stuff...mine missed what could have been a $30,000 bottom job!
 
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Yeah, I have not had good reports regarding surveyors. I do my own work and rather enjoy it as long as the area is accessable. Also commercial pilot and work on my own aircraft. Think I enjoy working on them more than flying. Fuel tanks? Mild steel and rust. With diesel fuel I would not expect a lot of rust unless water was in the tank and then I would be suspect of the engine. Diesels don't like water at all, or at leat my truck doesn't. Some of the tanks I saw were Stainless Steel, I think, and yes the broker doesn't seem to know much about the boat.

Ken
 
kpinnn said:
Yeah, I have not had good reports regarding surveyors. I do my own work and rather enjoy it as long as the area is accessable. Also commercial pilot and work on my own aircraft. Think I enjoy working on them more than flying. Fuel tanks? Mild steel and rust. With diesel fuel I would not expect a lot of rust unless water was in the tank and then I would be suspect of the engine. Diesels don't like water at all, or at leat my truck doesn't. Some of the tanks I saw were Stainless Steel, I think, and yes the broker doesn't seem to know much about the boat.

Ken
Click to expand...

rust from the outside in....
 
kpinnn said:
Yeah, I have not had good reports regarding surveyors. I do my own work and rather enjoy it as long as the area is accessable.
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You might benefit from one of David Pascoe's books:
Power Boat Books by David Pascoe, Marine Surveyor
Like anyone else who expresses strong opinons (particularly in the marine world), Pascoe has some detractors. But if you get "Surveying Fiberglass Power Boats" and a moisture meter (and spend some time learning how to interpret its readings) you will be in a more knowledgeable position.

Also, while it's not about surveying per se, Bill Bishop's blog is good (and he's a very entertaining writer!):
The Marine Installer's Rant
 
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when we narrowed our search to 34 Mainships we found 2 out of a dozen (atleast) that didn't have the rotten cockpit. they are out there but you will have to ferret them out. Also be on the lookout for sagging decks under the rear sliding door, the floor may be solid still but the support has begun to rot.

As for the rusting tanks, PS is correct. Most of the time the top is what rusts out due to water getting in around the deck fill and resting atop the tank in the inevitable "bowl" shape that most all have. This kept us from buying 2 Defevers and one other "top named" boat who's brand escapes me ATM. Corroded tanks normaly wouldn't be a deciding factor in a boat's purchase for us but there were just so many to choose from at that time that there was NO reason to dive into that.
 
The 'seakeeping' requirement intrigues me? What are the physical properties of a boat that promote seakeeping? Do these properties compromise other characteristics? Is seakeeping comfort or safety? Boats that have been around 30 years have inherently demonstrated a resistance to sinking.

On the window thing. It's not possible to have only a single window leak on a 30 year old boat unless there's signs of physical damage. Trust me, others are leaking in secret.
 
jeffnick said:
The 'seakeeping' requirement intrigues me? What are the physical properties of a boat that promote seakeeping? Do these properties compromise other characteristics? Is seakeeping comfort or safety? Boats that have been around 30 years have inherently demonstrated a resistance to sinking.

On the window thing. It's not possible to have only a single window leak on a 30 year old boat unless there's signs of physical damage. Trust me, others are leaking in secret.
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but only THAT boat...there are a billion factors why a particular boat didn't sink..it has nothing to do with ANYTHING ELSE...

Now start looking at subsets and the reasoning starts to sharpen quickly...
 
Too bad we live so far apart...we're thinking of going the opposite route. We currently own and love our GB42 but because of where we live and our boat is moored we're a good 2.5 hours away from the nearest anchorage. Changes in our worklives and other commitments is leaving us substantially less time for the important things like boating. Thinking a fast-cruiser may be the way to go. BTW, as others have said there's nothing wrong with a properly built and maintained Taiwanese boat. - Boyd
Oh yeah, almost forgot...If at all possible find a surveyor that is Lloyd's certified. Likely a more expensive hire, but very thorough.
 
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FF said:
So the owners goop till some leaks stop , and continue to enjoy cottaging aboard.

This actually works just fine for decades , just never take one of these boats into an offshore situation. One comber landing on board may remove too much boat.

FF
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Exactly. I all depends on what you want to use the boat for and how important it is to you that everything be perfectly ship shape. I bought an old, tired MT 34' because:


  • It was very affordable.
  • The engine was solid.
  • She looks very salty - at docks with high end go-fast boats and modern big $ cruisers people walk out to look at and ask about my 1974 TT.
  • It works.
She has the typical soft decks and rotting house core but for puttering around on the Bay she's hard to beat. In 5 years she has never let me down or put me in a dangerous situation.


But, offshore - not a chance!
 
After all of this I am not sure it is possible to find anything used that doesn,t leak somplace and has the associated rot in some form or fashion. And yes the boat will be brought into the same shape as my aircraft, "Ship shape or completely air worthy". Mt Rinker is a 95 and in excellent condition. Yes things break down and need repairing. They are repaired correctly, I know because I do it, and every time I make a repair everything associated with the repair is improved back to new condition. Going to look at Tolly Craft now.
Ken
 
Refugio, thanks for the link to Bill Bishop's blog. Very good stuff... I am sure I'll have to spend some time looking at back posts there. The blog entry on our boats' water tanks was great.
The Marine Installer's Rant: Primordial soup
 
"But, offshore - not a chance!"

This is never a problem as the boat was not designed or constructed to go in blue water from the day it was assembled.

FF
 
I am now looking at a Foggman. It is a Downeast full keeled semidisplacement design with 120 HP Diesel. Hull is wood with fiberglass covered. Deck solid wood. Anyone ever head of this animal?

Ken
PS Clipper is still in the works but Broker and owner not very responsive, can't seem to get schedule for second look. All seem to be too busy.
 
kpinnn said:
I am now looking at a Foggman. It is a Downeast full keeled semidisplacement design with 120 HP Diesel. Hull is wood with fiberglass covered. Deck solid wood. Anyone ever head of this animal?

Ken
PS Clipper is still in the works but Broker and owner not very responsive, can't seem to get schedule for second look. All seem to be too busy.
Click to expand...

Usually not good...but could be one that was done OK.....If done OK...there's so much glass on there with 120 hp diesel she's probably only displacement now.

I wouldn't probably even consider it.
 
Weight could be a issue I guess. I know of a couple that spent 4 years rebuilding their Downeast boat. They also fibeglassed the hull to reduce maintenance. They love it but said would not do again. They presently live on it in the Summer.
Definately looking for economical costsal cruiser but also capable of an of shore excursion if desired. Not really sure what constitutes that capability. Certainly sea keeping, but what else.

Ken
 
kpinnn said:
Weight could be a issue I guess. I know of a couple that spent 4 years rebuilding their Downeast boat. They also fibeglassed the hull to reduce maintenance. They love it but said would not do again. They presently live on it in the Summer.
Definately looking for economical costsal cruiser but also capable of an of shore excursion if desired. Not really sure what constitutes that capability. Certainly sea keeping, but what else.

Ken
Click to expand...

Here's from what I have heard about wood boats being glassed for the last 40+ years. First...unless it was epoxy...it really doesn't stick to the wood unless mechanically fastened with a bazillion staples. Then it has t be so thick it that when the wood swells/shricks form water/temperature...the glass is thick enough to be it's own hull (unless the hull is plywood already)....if it's THATthick...then weight is an issue for a semi-displacement or planing hull.

Then you have the issue of as the glass and wood doesn't really "work" like a wooden hull, what is happening to the original wood to rib fastenings and to the ribs themselves.

As I said..there have been successful covering jobs....there is also about a 90+ percent failure rate but done to stretch the life a few more years till sold to someone unsuspecting.

I would more than doubletake if I was even considering...
 
Thanks, makes since. Expansion and contraction rates will be different than the wood and glass. Many aircraft wings are birch plywood then covered with fibeglass cloth. They do not have the expansion contraction problem and temperatures do very more than a boat. I will have to see what they use, epoxy or glass. My bet is that epoxy is used. Weight is very critical in an aircraft as you can well imagine.

This does make me think.
Ken
 
Greetings,
Mr. K. MY opinion...Stay away regardless of what "plastic" the wood hull is covered with. I fully concur with Mr.psneeld. Ain't lookin' for boats fun? I think it is.
 
kpinnn said:
I am now looking at a Foggman. It is a Downeast full keeled semidisplacement design with 120 HP Diesel. Hull is wood with fiberglass covered. Deck solid wood. Anyone ever head of this animal?

Ken
PS Clipper is still in the works but Broker and owner not very responsive, can't seem to get schedule for second look. All seem to be too busy.
Click to expand...
There is always a reason a timber hull gets fibreglassed and it`s never good. What is happening between the wood and the glass? How do you check?
The Clipper 30 was in rental fleets in Sydney,along with the Clipper 34 (= Marine Trader). I hired one years ago in winter, apart from mild hypothermia one night it was a good boat for a couple. Had a 4 cylinder 80hp diesel from memory,maybe Ford Lehman. I don`t remember teak decks,a blessing in an older boat. Easy to handle, we tried it in a seaway contrary to hire restrictions,it went quite well in a following sea.
The trouble with rot is how much further it can extend than you think, and not be discovered without dismantling. BruceK
 
psneeld said:
As I said..there have been successful covering jobs....there is also about a 90+ percent failure rate but done to stretch the life a few more years till sold to someone unsuspecting.

I would more than doubletake if I was even considering...
Click to expand...

Where did you get the information for the 90% failure rate from ? .... I'ld love to read that article.:flowers:
 
Bugmon said:
Where did you get the information for the 90% failure rate from ? .... I'ld love to read that article.:flowers:
Click to expand...

You just read the article...if you would like to see my credentials...I'll make sure I submit a nicer title page on my next post....:D

I'll put money on the statistic if you doubt it....but you are correct that it's just an observation from someone who has studied the subject way more than most...therefore probably very accurate...:thumb:

CPseudonym- Stop reading my mind...though it's a short read..;)
 
kpinnn said:
I am now looking at a Foggman. It is a Downeast full keeled semidisplacement design with 120 HP Diesel. Hull is wood with fiberglass covered. Deck solid wood. Anyone ever head of this animal?
Click to expand...
I've never heard of Foggman, but that is indeed an attractive boat. I'm a little surprised that they don't provide any pictures of the interior - I'd like to see the quality of the joinery

As others have said, with a fiberglass covering it is unlikely to plane so that 14 kts is a fantasy.

I mention a lot of books, but there's one that is particularly relevant to this boat: "Covering Wooden Boats with Fiberglass" by Allan Vaitses. The book was written in 1981 and covered the author's 15 years of experience doing exactly that, mostly with Maine lobster boats though he does mention a Rybovich that he RE-fiberglassed and a few other yachts.

I talked to the author a few times in the mid-80s when I was considering covering my 32' Monk cruiser. I started with replacing the canvas covering over the saloon cabin top and used matt and roving, fastened with stainless steel staples. I also changed his technique of laying up wet, and then fastening - I laid up dry and fastened first before saturating. I'm not an accomplished craftsman, but the job turned out quite well - it just took an enormous amount of time so I decided against covering the hull. In the 90s I ended up spending $10K (the value of the boat) rebuilding the transom, and a subsequent owner spent about that redoing much of the hull in the following decade.

If you are seriously intersted in this boat, you should source a copy of the book and learn about terminating the covering, finishing tecnhiques, et cetera. One warning sign I see is that they didn't also cover the decks, the biggest source of the fresh-water intrusion that will ruin a wood boat.

Most fiberglass coverings that I have seen failed have used cloth, which IMHO has no place on a boat (Vaitses cautions against it as well). If the covering on this boat is substantial, you might get many years of use from this boat.

If the fiberglass covering scares you off but you are comfortable with a wood boat, you might look at the old Grand Banks 32 woodies - here's one from 1970 located in RI for $38K:
1970 Grand Banks Power Boat For Sale - www.yachtworld.com
 
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