The Modified XYZ Anchor.

The nose piece is just mild steel so that makes this a proof-of-concept offering but I'm ready to try it and will have it aboard. The grey color is from an aerosol can of spray-on galvanize. Perhaps it will keep my deck (where the anchor is (flush like an old Danforth)) from getting brown from rust. If I like it I'll make another nose piece from 4140 steel and have it hot dipped galvanized.

I've never seen an anchor that didn't have pointed flukes but I think this thing will work. If the anchor lies flat on the bottom the nose piece will be like a chisel and I've used countersunk flat head screws instead of the regular allen (socket head) cap screws that came w it. This should insure that the chisel end of the fluke lies flat and flush w the bottom w a shallow angle of attack. I suspect that on rocky bottoms setting may not take place. But if the anchor lays on it's side the edge of the front of the fluke should penetrate easily. Note the 2nd picture. Sand and mud should not be a challenge any way it lands.

For the rocks I've got 3 other anchors that should pick up the slack and the way I've got things set up I can swap and switch easily. We'll see.

I've tried to post the 2nd picture several times. You'll just have to imagine the anchor on it's side.

Looks to me like you've created an anchor with more resistance to penetrating the bottom than the original. I suspect there's a really good reason why anchors for the last few centuries have used pointed flukes instead of squared-off chisel-blade flukes regardless of the rest of their designs.

Which takes less force, pushing the length of a knife blade down into a block of cheese or pushing the the point of the blade into the cheese? This is one case where I think your armchair theory is going to let you down.

No argument here Marin. Your'e words make sense.

And I promise I'll let you know if it dos'nt work. Actually if I put the anchor down and back over it forcing it to set on it's side I am quite sure it will set good. But I'm not so sure it will bury itself right side up. I'll find out though.

Why don't you put a roll bar on it? That will force it to lie on its side every time no matter how it lands.

You're going to embarrass Willy if you hang that thing on the bow.

No worry Chip. The "thing" is flush on the deck like a Danforth.

Marin, No it won't. It will force it to lie on it's side OR sit up straight. The roll bar will not keep it from sitting right side up.

The "hoop" on the Sarca seems to force it to sit right side up and even keeps it from laying on it's side. I'm almost certain that will be my next anchor. You should see the Anchor Right video. There's still time for me to send it to you.

The "mast" on the XYZ keeps it from laying upside down after it is dragged along a bit. Not to fear though if things go to far south I've got a trusty Claw aboard not to mention the Dreadnought and an additional rode.

manyboats said:

No worry Chip. The "thing" is flush on the deck like a Danforth.



The "hoop" on the Sarca seems to force it to sit right side up and even keeps it from laying on it's side.

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If that's what it really does then cross the Sarca off my list of recommended anchors. The whole point of the rollbar concept is to force the anchor to ALWAYS end up on its side no matter how it lands on the bottom. This enables the fluke to slice down into the bottom like a knife blade when you pull on the rode which is what makes these anchors--- at least the Rocna, Manson, and Bugel--- set so fast and so positively.

If the anchor does not end up on its side the whole "slice down into the bottom" concept doesn't work and all you have is another anchor that's dependent on sliding along the bottom in the hopes that the fluke will catch and dig in.

The rollbar and the resulting consistent positioning on its side is what attracted us to the Rocna as it makes it what I've called a "pro-active" anchor as opposed to a passive "drag it along and hope it sets" anchor.

In the videos of the Rocna you will see that the anchor always ends up on its side no matter how it hits the bottom. The weight of the rollbar helps tip the anchor onto its side at which point the rollbar prevents the anchor from tipping over any farther. And as soon as you start pulling on the rode that sideways vertical fluke pivots on the skid plate and the end of the rollbar and knifes sideways down in to the bottom. The point-of-the-knife-into-the-cheese analogy.

If the Sarca doesn't do this and is simply positioned every time with its flat fluke sitting on the bottom like a sled, then it's just another passive "drag and hope" anchor like CQR, Danforth, Bruce, etc. In which case it's about the last anchor I'd want since the odds of that single sled-like fluke digging in as it slides across the bottom are considerably reduced.

Watch the video Marin.

I did. In fact I just watched all the Super Sarca videos on the Sarca site. They are doing some judicious editing here. In every video, they start their demonstrations or tests with the anchor already rightside up and with the end of the fluke already dug into the bottom. So all you see in the video is the digging-in part of the set.

There is only one video in which at the beginning of one scene you get a quick glimpse of the anchor flipping from its side--- which is where the rollbar positions it just like a Rocna or Manson--- to the rightside up position as the fluke, which has started to slice down into the bottom turns the anchor upright.

Why Sarca doesn't make any effort to point out in their videos WHY their anchor sets so fast the way Rocna does in their video using animation and real footage is something I don't know. But they have edited out that on-its-side starting position from every scene of the anchor setting except in the one scene I mentioned.

Were I a potential anchor customer, I would be drawn to the Rocna over the Sarca if for no other reason than Sarca does such a poor job in their videos of explaining how their anchor actually works. They do a good job of demonstrating what happens with their anchor once it starts to dig in, but they have missed--- in my opinion as a film producer--- a great opportunity to really convince people exactly why their anchor works so well. In addition to independent user testimonials from all over the world, a major factor in our decision to buy a Rocna was their excellent video which explains and shows exactly how and why their anchor works so well.

The Sarca Excel is, of course, a different animal altogether and has a different setting action than the rollbar-equipped Super Sarca.

Bottom line--- I was not at all impressed with Anchor Right's Super Sarca videos because I learned nothing about how they work. I didn't bother watching the Excel videos because that anchor is based on the same principle as the CQR which to my way of thinking is a less-than-desirable design.

I suspect the video I have is not on their web site but I'm not sure. Hav'nt got time to check it out now. Gotta get back down to the boat and get more stuff done.

One thing I'm convinced of is that to set it's far better to be right side up w the Sarca but w the Supreme and Rocna it's better to be on their sides. In the video I see the Sarca's stand up almost instantly and at least several times they start out on their sides. The Rocna won't hold well at short scope and won't set at short scope because the shank will be picked up and it will be right side up. Loose loose.

manyboats said:

The Rocna won't hold well at short scope and won't set at short scope because the shank will be picked up and it will be right side up. Loose loose.

Click to expand...

Your theory runs counter to users' experience . I'm going to go with experience over theory. No anchor does well on a super short scope but some do a little better than others.

manyboats said:

I suspect the video I have is not on their web site but I'm not sure. Hav'nt got time to check it out now. Gotta get back down to the boat and get more stuff .

Click to expand...

They say the videos on their website are from their new DVD. Whether they are the same ones that are on the DVD you have I don't know.

The Rocna short scope issue I mentioned was from anchor tests at 3-1. More than one test mentioned it.

And the setting short scope thoughts were my own armchair theory only.

Usable 2-1 performance was the original thing that attracted me to the XYZ.

I think we're leaving Sunday AM. I'll have pictures and stories to tell when I get down but probably not enough time as we need to make another trip north and then another in the fall. Look and chat stuff for winter.

Well have a great trip south. I envy you getting to boat through that country. We've only flown through it so far but are looking forward to the day when we can take off in the boat for a few months and go north.

We may or many not be off to China on Monday depending on everyone's ability to deal with the latest obstacle Chinese customs has come up with. But if we go it will be two weeks there followed immediately by two weeks of halibut fishing up the north end of Vancouver Island.

So be careful, have a great time, and don't let your bargeload of anchors get you in trouble.

Marin said:

If that's what it really does then cross the Sarca off my list of recommended anchors. The whole point of the rollbar concept is to force the anchor to ALWAYS end up on its side no matter how it lands on the bottom. This enables the fluke to slice down into the bottom like a knife blade when you pull on the rode which is what makes these anchors--- at least the Rocna, Manson, and Bugel--- set so fast and so positively.
The rollbar and the resulting consistent positioning on its side is what attracted us to the Rocna as it makes it what I've called a "pro-active" anchor as opposed to a passive "drag it along and hope it sets" anchor.

Click to expand...

Relax Marin (and Eric), the Sarcas roll-bar does exactly what the Rocnas and others do, it is just that it does it so quick, it is a bit hard to catch it in the act, so to speak, but yes, initially and briefly as in Marin's post....
"the anchor always ends up on its side no matter how it hits the bottom. The weight of the roll-bar helps tip the anchor onto its side at which point the roll-bar prevents the anchor from tipping over any farther. And as soon as you start pulling on the rode that sideways vertical fluke pivots on the skid plate and the end of the roll-bar and knifes sideways down in to the bottom. The point-of-the-knife-into-the-cheese analogy."
however in doing so, it so quickly moves to a vertical position after the tip of the fluke engages the bottom it is all like one continuous action from edge knifing in...to tip engagement...to whole fluke burying, so it almost looks like it is actually landing on the tip - but it doesn't - not possible in fact.
The video footage on their website is an edited down version for the sake of brevity, which would make that even harder to spot.
I hope that clears that up. I had this exact discussion with Rex of Sarca over a coffee just the other day at the Sanctuary Cove Boat Show. There is no attempt to disguise anything from trick editing I assure you. I have a copy of the full video.

I wan't implying the editing was trying to fool anyone, just that they cut into their scenes after the important visual of the anchor ending up on its side and then knifing in and rolling to an upright position. Bad edit decision as far as I'm concerned because it leaves out what to me is one of the major selling points of the anchor, its "pro-active" action to set.

Next time you see Rex you might pass that on. I think Anchor Right is doing themselves a disservice by not including a video or animation (or both which is what Rocna did in their video years ago) explaining and showing how the Super Sarca works all the way thorugh the process, from landing on the bottom to final deep set.

To me it was the most intriguing thing about the rollbar anchor and Rocna's website video is what promted us to start reading user testimonials about their anchor and then call them in NZ to talk about it The end result was a sale.

All the other anchors just drag along and maybe they dig in and maybe they don't. The rollbar anchors--- all of them---- take an entirely different approach in that their design forces them to penetrate the bottom in the most effective way possible, like a knife blade slicing downward. Brilliant design, whoever came up with it (the Bugel folks, I suppose).

Anyway, from the point of view of a film producer, I think Rex could help himself and his company a lot by reworking their videos or making a new one that clearly explains the superior setting action of a rollbar anchor.

manyboats said:

I think we're leaving Sunday AM. I'll have pictures and stories to tell when I get down but probably not enough time as we need to make another trip north and then another in the fall. Look and chat stuff for winter.

Click to expand...

Eric, I wonder for the benefit of those of us not familiar with the geography of your part of the world, apart from in a general sense, if you could post some info re where you are now, and leaving from, and where you are heading for, and what stop-offs you think you will do, so we can look it up on the charts etc. And bon voyage and safe traveling.
Pete

Marin wrote...
Anyway, from the point of view of a film producer, I think Rex could help himself and his company a lot by reworking their videos or making a new one that clearly explains the superior setting action of a rollbar anchor.

Point noted Marin, and I'll pass it along to Rex.
Pete

Peter--- Find Thorne Bay on a SE Alaska map or chart. It's northwest of Ketchikan. From there the Inside Passage goes south (it's really east but that confuses the hell out of everyone so it's easier to say south) past Ketchikan, along the BC coast across Dixon Entrance to Prince Rupert. From Prince Rupert the Passage goes southeast past the mouth of the Skeena River to the top of the first of two long narrow passages between the mainland and its eastern islands and the western islands that lie between the Passage and the Pacific. The two long channels are Grenville Channel at the north and Princess Royal Channel to the south.

From the lower entrance to Princess Royal channel you work your way down through some islands to the First Nations town of Bella Bella or the "white" settlement of Shearwater. Then it's down through Hakai Passage to the bottom of Calvert Island. At that point you have to go "outside" around the unprotected headland of Cape Caution. Full fury of the Pacific and all of that.

Once you get round that you're in Queen Charlotte Strait. You can skirt through the islands on the mainland side or cross the Strait to Port Hardy, then south to the top of Johnstone Strait. You can go down Johnstone which can have some serious winds that make life tough or thread through the islands to the east. Either way, you end up at Campbell River on Vancouver Island or in Desolation Sound to the east. Both are at the top of the Strait of Georgia which separates the lower half of Vancouver Island from the mainland.

From there you can run down the east shore of the island through the Strait of Georgia to Nanaimo or you can run down the mainland shore on the other side of the Strait of Georgia past Powell River and Texada Island to Pender Harbor. At that point most people go down to the bottom of Texada and cross over to the west to Nanaimo or Silva Bay at the top of the Gulf Islands. We prefer to run from near Campell River down the east shore of Vancouver Island to Comox, and then make the next long run from Comox to Nanaimo. Shorter than the mainland side but you have to watch the weather because there are precious few places between Campbell River and Nanaimo to duck for safety if the winds kick up.

Thread your way from Nanaimo down through the Gulf Islands, then cross Boundary Pass over to the San Juan Islands on the US side of the border, thread your way through those to Anacortes. La Conner, Eric's final destination, is just south of La Conner on the Swinomish Channel.

That's more or less how we fly the Passage coming home from SE Alaska. Eric may be taking detours along the way but that's the basic route.

Thanks, I'll look that up. Sounds interesting - and challenging - but could be a real buzz. I guess he'll be doing it in easy stages, sort of anchorage-hopping.

In talking to commercial fishermen about taking a boat up the Inside Passage they have told me that if the weather cooperates--- which it almost never does---- and you run only in the daytime but all day every day at 8 knots you can get from Bellingham to Ketchikan in ten days. Of course the commercial fishermen tend to run 24 hours a day so this cuts the time down considerably.

However for a recreational trip with lots of stops along the way to see and visit stuff it seems best to allow at least three months for the round trip and more is better. Friiends of ours took their 30 foot Newport sloop (a six-knot boat under power) up to Juneau and back a few years ago. They're retired and they took five months for the trip. That seemed really ideal as they were able to do all sorts of interesting things along the way.

When my wife and I go up in the Beaver it's a day's journey. We leave about 8:00am and make fuel stops in Nanaimo and then Port McNeil (used to be Sullivan Bay and then it was Minstral Island) and then go the rest of the way nonstop except for a lunch break at the Butedale Cannery, or what's left of it.

From Lake Washington where the plane is to Ketchikan is about 650 miles. At 110 mph plus customs, fuel, and lunch stops plus low weather-dodging (clouds, fog, rain) it's pretty much an all day deal to fly up there.

Abssolutely spectacular flight, though, even in dicey weather. We've never gotten tired of it even though we could probably fly the route in our sleep. We fly the same route all the boats take.

anchor controversy

Hi Marin
Gee Marin you certainly are a pain in my dearie air but I suppose you do have a point, what a pity I didn’t manage to land you a Super Sarca before you took possession of your mud scoop, every time we make a video there is always some sort of controversy, animations!, Marin what are you asking me for? I would not entertain that idea at all, you can make any design of any product produced with the assistance of animation to do whatever, for developing purposes yes it could be of assistance for preferred design but in the real world, surely Marin you don’t mean that.

Should my video include more of the Sacra’s orientation? Well in all of the years I have been marketing our anchors the hoop has always been self-explanatory and needed no further explanation.

The Sarca unlike other roll bar designs will set most times in a stand up position as you put it, second Marin think about this one, our two most likely competitors are con cave and will always lay on their side until burying sufficient to stand straight WHICH IS ALSO AIDED WITH A PAIR OF SKIDS, further the Sarca is the only convex anchor design worldwide with reverse weight, that is its weight is across the rear by means of a solid bar, (not tip- weight) any forward motion the Sarca will immediately strike with its turned down toe, it then tries to lift the weight across its rear which gives it unprecedented penetration to set in many types of substrate, think about it.

As I have stated many times, our anchors have probably been scrutinized and put through the most rigorous tests of any anchor for S/H/H/Power certification, witnessed by many from the Marine industry, the volume and interest from onlookers of the T.A.T.S. put a lot of emphasis on us to demonstrate to all what we were claiming re our anchor designs, end result all of what we were claiming has now been proven many, many, times and as I have stated all of our anchor designs are certified S/H/H/Power.

I have a closet full of videos, totally uncut showing the Sarca rolling over and rapidly setting; I will arrange to have them sent directly to you if you like, then again, why not view the video on you tube by P. Smith (SARCA TESTED) where your concave anchor design came from, that company clearly cooked the demo as the Sarca was pulled on a drier surface at twice the speed of your anchor design, nothing to do with my filming there Marin, opposition , no favors, clearly the orientation and then super-fast penetration by the Sarca is obviously different than concave in their film, Please note, that Sarca was the old design ,not Super Sarca.

One thing I totally agree with you is this Marin, minimum rope scope of three to one in calm waters, four to one low tide or light windy conditions and no less than five to one when anchoring overnight, preferably for me I like 7 to one.

Any way it looks like Joe Smith from NRC in Seattle is not far away from importing a pellet load of assorted Sarca and Sarca Excel anchors, so you will eventually be able to argue with some one else should they purchase.

Regards Rex.
CEO of Anchor Right Australia.

Wow, just looked that course up - that's quite a hop. Best of luck and safe voyage, Eric.

Amen Rex! I don't have a Rocna, Sarca or XYZ anchor. Nor have I any experience with any of these.
However, I am continually amazed at the attitude some exhibit here in defense of their
ground tackle. I'm sure all of these are very good anchors and we can find supporting documentation to any one of them.
Several of the" anchor nazis" refuse to let go of the fact that other people have had good results with other brands/types. If your anchor roller doesn't have their brand on it then you must be doing it wrong- you'll drag or die !
Rex- I'm sure you will be getting an earful in the not to distant future.
Your marketing seems to be to support your position , but not in your face against other brands. Let the facts speak for themselves. your product seems well made and totally suitable for the use in which it was intended. Your business practice appears to be aggressive but ethical-the way it should be.
In the interest of full disclosure, I have not see all of the marketing on all of these brands. I also don't own any of these brands, nor do I play one on TV.

Thanks Marin as I have'nt got much time.

First day out of Ketchikan we may anchor on Duke Is.
In between Prince Rupert and Mlbanke Sound we will be west of the usual Grenville Channel route. Petrel Channel, Principe Channel and Estavan Sound. Then we'll be going east to Fjordland through Meyers passage. Then we will be generally on the usual route except we'll probably go to Shawl Bay and meet w Larry H. Should be in Puget Sound in about 5 weeks ..... or so.

So for one We'll have enough time to go here and there on the way down and see places that we've always passed up before to get to point "B" in a timely manner.

See Ya'all

Rex--- Thanks for your reply. Rocna used both animation to explain how their anchor works and live footage to show it actually working. CGI (computer generated imagery) is an oustanding tool to illustrate how something works. We use it constantly at Boeing to make thing more clear to an audience. In fact it is so valuable to us that we have a whole group in our organization that specializes in it with about $1.5 million in hardware and software to do it with. So don't knock CGI an effective way to get one's point across.

I'm not trying to restart a discussion about your anchor. I certainly agree it's a great one although we would never buy one for the reasons I have already described in other discussions. I am simply commenting on the fact that as a marketing tool I think the videos on your site are not doing as effective a job of promoting your product as they coud be.

Were we in the market for an anchor today, and knowing nothing about rollbar anchors as we knew nothing about them seven or eight years ago, based solely on the content, appearance, and organization of your and Rocna's website I would be far more impressed and interested in their product than in yours and would be drawn-- as we were then-- to learn more about their product and regard yours as an "also ran."

This has nothing to do with the relative merits of the products themselves.

A number of years ago I interviewed the CEO of Air Malta for a 737 marketing project.. In explaining his airline's heavy involvement in all manner of projects and businesses promoting Malta he said, "Perception is fifty percent of everything these days. Fifty percent of business, fifty percent of politics, fifty percent of finance, fifty percent of success.".

The only thing inaccurate about his statement today is that today perception is probably seventy percent of everything.

I help our company market and sell commercial jetliners, which are the most complex commercial products made by man today. But the same techniques that work so effectively to market them are equally effective in marketing a bent piece of steel designed to hold a boat in place. It takes good storytelling, clear explanations, and effective visualizations. In that regard Rocna has you beat hands down right now.

Marin said:

Rex--- Thanks for your reply. Rocna used both animation to explain how their anchor works and live footage to show it actually working. CGI (computer generated imagery) is an oustanding tool to illustrate how something works. We use it constantly at Boeing to make thing more clear to an audience. In fact it is so valuable to us that we have a whole group in our organization that specializes in it with about $1.5 million in hardware and software to do it with. So don't knock CGI an effective way to get one's point across.

I'm not trying to restart a discussion about your anchor. I certainly agree it's a great one although we would never buy one for the reasons I have already described in other discussions. I am simply commenting on the fact that as a marketing tool I think the videos on your site are not doing as effective a job of promoting your product as they coud be.

Were we in the market for an anchor today, and knowing nothing about rollbar anchors as we knew nothing about them seven or eight years ago, based solely on the content, appearance, and organization of your and Rocna's website I would be far more impressed and interested in their product than in yours and would be drawn-- as we were then-- to learn more about their product and regard yours as an "also ran."

This has nothing to do with the relative merits of the products themselves.

A number of years ago I interviewed the CEO of Air Malta for a 737 marketing project.. In explaining his airline's heavy involvement in all manner of projects and businesses promoting Malta he said, "Perception is fifty percent of everything these days. Fifty percent of business, fifty percent of politics, fifty percent of finance, fifty percent of success.".

The only thing inaccurate about his statement today is that today perception is probably seventy percent of everything.

I help our company market and sell commercial jetliners, which are the most complex commercial products made by man today. But the same techniques that work so effectively to market them are equally effective in marketing a bent piece of steel designed to hold a boat in place. It takes good storytelling, clear explanations, and effective visualizations. In that regard Rocna has you beat hands down right now.

Click to expand...

dead on...my ex used to say it's not if I was a great guy or not...it was WHAT SHE THOUGHT OF ME that mattered. Obviously by the fixer upper tone of the posts about my boat prove how right she was...

Sailor of Fortune said:

Amen Rex! I don't have a Rocna, Sarca or XYZ anchor. Nor have I any experience with any of these.
However, I am continually amazed at the attitude some exhibit here in defense of their
ground tackle.

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Right on,you could be forgiven for thinking guys were defending their "wedding tackle' rather than their "ground tackle". It`s like a Ford v GM argument.
I follow this thread (and all the others which raise the same issues) with interest as I`m considering buying a Sarca Supreme.
I`ve no doubt most anchors, even the venerable CQR like mine, do a decent job. The other variables, like correct sizing, scope,operator skill, the bottom,, prevailing conditions,hull shape,windage, even a degree of good or bad luck, all contribute. I doubt any 2 anchoring situations are identical. BruceK

Gee, Eric, I bet you never figured to start such spirited discussion about just about every anchor ever designed under the sun with your innocuous thread about modifying the toe of your XYZ.
As for me, I can hardly wait to hear your comments when you can finally lay your hands on a Super -S. Maybe you better email that distributor and get your name down...
It might be waiting for you when you get to where you are going. I'm just sorry one can't be got to you before you leave, to use on the way. I'm confident you would then be confident to merely link all the others you have together when you arrive and turn them into a permanent mooring...thus lightening Willy quite a bit at the same time.
Will you be able to access i/net and keep us posted as you travel - I hope so? It looks a really interesting route, which I have plotted thanks to Marin's description. We expect photos as well of course....no pressure....
But mainly just enjoy a safe trip..
Pete

Peter, Marin and all,
We're in Ketchikan after bucking the tide all day long.
We will be on our way Tuesday at the earliest. With reasonable weather. May anchor in Pond Bay on the north end of Duke Is and on the next good weather day try to make it all the way to Prince Rupert. Had dinner w Tom and Jan White (nice warm send-off). Beautiful weather today but 20 knots tomorrow ... We,ll be shopping anyway. I,m using the Ketchikan Yacht Club's Wi-fi and my I-pad. Sure glad I got that Navimatics app Marin. Forgot our paper charts. The next leg is in real wild places but I may get wi-fi at Shearwater ..... About two weeks away. I took one anchor home so now I only have 6 on board. I'm egar to try the modified XYZ and the Dreadnought. Owning the Dreadnought is like having a Duesenburg. Sure glad I got that one.
Cheers