My synthetic vs dino oil experience, WOW!

manyboats said:

Marin,
They just want you to use the thin low vis stuff so their Subaru's have the best EPA millage numbers possible.

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Don't think that's the reason, Eric. Long time ago Chevy made a 40th Anniversary edition of the Corvette. Our neighbor at the time bought one. Nobody gave a hoot in hell about the fuel mileage of the thing. But the manual specified a very thin synthetic oil because of the engine's very tight tolerances and the warranty was void instantly if you put anything else in it. It had nothing to do with EPA ratings. And I think the deal is that if you have a very tight tolerance engine and use the oil specified for it, it won't wear down to loser tolerances, at least not for a long, long time.

I agree that running old engines on new-technology lubricants may not accomplish anything much. But the reverse is not true. Running new technology engines on "old-technology" oils can be very damaging or at least detrimental to their efficiency and performance.

The lubricants used in today's GE, Rolls, and Pratt turbofans is not the same stuff that was used in the jet engines of the 50s and 60s. Today's engines are built with very tight tolerances where these kinds of tolerances can improve the efficiency and performance of the engines. GE doesn't say, "Well, we'll run them on the stuff they used in the 50s because the tolerances in our engines will eventually loosen up and the new stuff won't make any difference." Instead they do everything they can to preserve the efficiency and performance of the engines-- which cost millions of dollars apiece so the operators want them to perform as advertised for a long, long time--- and that includes speccing lubricants that will help preserve those tight tolerances. The car people are doing the same thing.

manyboats said:

Marin,
We're not talking Sabaru's and stuff ......... we're talk'in boats and diesel's in paticular.

What happens when the Subaru gets old and the clearances are'nt so tight? They just want you to use the thin low vis stuff so their Subaru's have the best EPA millage numbers possible. Evinrude requires that I have my dealer change my computer on my e-tech outboard to run 100-1 oil mix (from 50-1) after break-in too but I'll never do it. I'm quite sure they play the 100-1 game so they can sell their engines ..... I mean sell them at all. Without that clause and the necessity of it's requirement I'm sure Evinrude wouldn't recommend 100-1. McCullough tried that way back in about the late 70s. Probably had a lot to do w their demise.

But I'll give you two thumbs up on chain drive camshafts. Without a doubt the better mousetrap.

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my 6hp yammie is 100:1...runs WOT hour after hour...for the last 20 years.

psneeld,
Great. Now I think my e-tec will be even happier.

BOATS Marin BOATS..........
OK so what's the deal ........ gonna be running tighter tolerances in 2050 and using water for lube?

The engineers say the heavier the oil the less the wear.

What marine diesel manufacturer recommends 5W oil?

I wonder if you're looking at 21st century technology through 20th century glasses.....

manyboats said:

psneeld,
Great. Now I think my e-tec will be even happier.

BOATS Marin BOATS..........
OK so what's the deal ........ gonna be running tighter tolerances in 2050 and using water for lube?

The engineers say the heavier the oil the less the wear.

What marine diesel manufacturer recommends 5W oil?

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Cat recommends their 0W-40 for cold weather applications....

Back when Evinrude specified 50-1 gas oil mix, they required 25-1 mix for the break-in time. As I recall it was the first 10 hours. Now its 50-1 for break-in and 100-1 for normal running. Using more oil than recommended can cause problems, like stuck rings, which score the cylinder walls causing engine failure, and fouled plugs. When VRO engines injected 50-1, the break-in required using 50-1 mix in the fuel tank also, doubling the oil mix to 25-1.

If I had spent the many $$$ to buy an E-Tec engine, I would follow the manufacturers requirements. Not doing so could void the warranty. If the computer is not reset, that information is in the computer, so its easy for the company to determine that the owner did not follow the instructions.

Evinrude engineers are smart fellows, and they want their customers to be happy and not buy a M, H or Y engine next time.


Larry H
Retired Evinrude mechanic.

Larry H said:

Back when Evinrude specified 50-1 gas oil mix, they required 25-1 mix for the break-in time. As I recall it was the first 10 hours. Now its 50-1 for break-in and 100-1 for normal running. Using more oil than recommended can cause problems, like stuck rings, which score the cylinder walls causing engine failure, and fouled plugs. When VRO engines injected 50-1, the break-in required using 50-1 mix in the fuel tank also, doubling the oil mix to 25-1.

If I had spent the many $$$ to buy an E-Tec engine, I would follow the manufacturers requirements. Not doing so could void the warranty. If the computer is not reset, that information is in the computer, so its easy for the company to determine that the owner did not follow the instructions.

Evinrude engineers are smart fellows, and they want their customers to be happy and not buy a M, H or Y engine next time.


Larry H
Retired Evinrude mechanic.

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No way!!! Add all the straight weight oil you can..heck those TCWIII oils are crap...straight 30wt because there's nothing else between the molecules.... who gives a damn what makes sense...MORE OIL the MERRIER!!!!

manyboats said:

The engineers say the heavier the oil the less the wear.

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Well, obviously they don't anymore or we wouldn't have all these new engines running on low-weight synthetics. Moving parts are moving parts whether they be in an industrial or commercial diesel, a marinized diesel, a car engine, or a turbofan. And it's a pretty safe bet that the engineers that design these things today are not just looking to get their employers better EPA ratings. Particularly in the case of (the extremely expensive) aircraft, rail, and commercial/industrial engines where the goal is as much the engine's trouble-free longevity as it is its efficiency and performance.

Applying today's rules to yesterday's engines may not make any difference in terms of benefits. But applying yesterdays rules to today's engines could result in the shortening of the engine's life or performance or efficiency or all three.

Time to advance that century digit up a notch. It's not the era of Marvel Mystery Oil anymore.

Well Marin ride your horse off into the twilight zone w all your new technology but I'm going to do what I think is best. You worship technology and think it will save you from everything. I think your are absolutely convinced that Rocna anchor of yours will never fail because it's the latest thing in your eyes. You just have a mentality that anything new is golden and anything over 10 years old is to be forgotten about or discarded in favor of the wonderful new technology. I'm going to use 30W oil, wear wool coats, eat carrots, and do whatever else I think is better or best. If I get a new car and it says to use 5W oil I probably will but I think my boat diesel recommends 30W and it's only 6 years old.

psneeld yea I see that about Cat but that's "cold weather" stuff and Daddyo's in Florida I think. I did'nt understand most of your post. read it to yourself.

Larry I hear your words and think you're prolly right but my dealer agrees w me. I do'nt see how I can have too much oil at 50-1. Warranties are for people that abuse their things and I'm an optimist as well.

Eric,

You are going to have a new dealer when you move south, let us know what he says about the oil mix.

Ya know, the dealer won't pay to fix your motor under warranty, its the factory. I don't have an E-Tec and haven't read the owners manual, but that is the place to find out how to operate your motor. I do know that the E-Tec's oil is designed to burn clean in the engine, not at all like motor oil, which is designed to not burn, but stay in the crankcase. If you put too much oil into the combustion chamber, it may not burn clean as it was designed to, resulting in carbon in the ring grooves. If you are going to use too much oil, at least use the 'Engine Tuner' product at the proper interval. That product actually dissolves the carbon out of the ring grooves.

manyboats said:

You just have a mentality that anything new is golden and anything over 10 years old is to be forgotten about or discarded in favor of the wonderful new technology.

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Absolutley 100 percent correct. You don't go forward by looking backwards. Old stuff sucks, is my basic phiosophy. Unless of course you're a museum or a collector, in which case old stuff is cool. My Fender Stratocaster is cool. The Lehmans in our boat are not. When it comes to dealing with everyday life, old simply impedes progress. It's why we don't make 707s anymore.

Although I know at least one person on this forum who would say we should be. But I think that says more about that person than it does about the 707.

But we do still sell parts for them. I run plenty of old stuff but it's only because I can't or won't pay for new stuff. It's not because I think the old stuff is better because it's not. If I could justify the cost right now of yanking the Lehmans out of our boat and replacing them with brand new technology diesels those two Lehmans would be in the Squalicum marina dumpster tomorrow morning. Along with the Onan generator. We may actually do this in the not-too-distant future but that's a decision yet to be made.

But as long as I have to run old crap I take the best possible care I can of it because I want it to perform properly until the day comes I can get rid of it. So I run the oil in the Lehmans that Ford said to run in them. But that does't mean I'm going to run the same old-fashioned single-weight oil in the engine in our new Subaru, particuarly when the manufacturer says if I do I can kiss the warranty goodbye. Or in the new Yamaha outboard on our Arima. Or in my 1987 BWW. I run what the manufacturer says to run. If they say run 30 wt dinosaur oil, that's what I run. If they say run multi-vis dinosaur oil, that's what I run. If they say run 0-20 wt synthetic, that's what I run.

I know a whole lot of engineers and they are really, really smart people. I long ago learned that when they say "do this because," the "because" is invariably right on the money. I think one would be a fool to bet against them.

PS--- Eric, I don't think our Rocna will never drag. I've been around long enough to know to never say never. What I do believe is that our Rocna has a better chance of staying set in a greater variety of bottoms and under a greater variety of conditions than any other anchor out there with the exception of the Sarca (which I think is equal) given the same basic size. In other words, I don't think the Rocna is 100 percent reliable, I just think it's way more reliable than anything else (the Sarca excepted again).

manyboats
Some of us use electricity for lights now instead of lamp oil. It's new, but I kind of like it. (Fiberglass instead of wood, radial tires instead of bias, GPS instead of VLF/OMEGA or LORAN, AGM instead of flooded-cell, nylon instead of hemp, and more)

manyboats said:

The engineers say the heavier the oil the less the wear.

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Software engineers maybe ...

Too viscous an oil creates a whole world of problems of its own, among them, poor lubrication because thick oil doesn't always get where it is supposed to go, and it creates drag and heat on moving parts and provides less cylinder lubrication, hence greater wear.

That is why engine designers don't rely on public opinion when they specify which lubricant to use in what conditions and applications.

Eric - Time to say "uncle".

OK I give up.

manyboats said:

OK I give up.

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Giving up is not why we should be here...

My experience has shown me to believe many are here either learn or pass on experience...in this case more than a slim majority has shown clearly that there are SAFE and sometimes recommended alternatives to straight weight oils (even those modified by the great wizards who bend straight weights to make their own magical oil blends )

I know there are often many ways to do things on a boat with many different products..both safely and in many cases there is a cheaper alternative (if not better in some areas) than what you get from manufactures, marinas and boating mags.

Like your experimentation with anchors..you are certainly learning more than many and so it is with others and their personal experience and knowledge.

I can almost always offer a safe, alternate way of doing things on a boat...but I have learned through a lifetime of operating all kinds of equipment from marine to road to heavy equipment to aviation...for someone to say there is a "correct way or correct product" hasn't been around the block as much as they think they have.

Well psneeld I've expressed my opinions mostly that multi-vis is best for road vehicles that frequently work fairly hard when cold and that straight weight oil is best for stationary engines that can take sufficient time to warm up before they are called upon to work. And synthetic oil is a waste of money on trawlers.

That's it I think and there's no point in repeating myself (any more).

I've presented what I think and shared same so that others may consider the merits (percieved) of what I do and think.

Just keep on trawl'in.

Marin said:

Absolutley 100 percent correct. You don't go forward by looking backwards. Old stuff sucks, is my basic phiosophy. Unless of course you're a museum or a collector, in which case old stuff is cool. My Fender Stratocaster is cool. The Lehmans in our boat are not. When it comes to dealing with everyday life, old simply impedes progress. It's why we don't make 707s anymore.

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Yeah, but Marin the reason the Stratocaster is way cool is because even today it still sounds good and works well, as well as being around a long time, and had been used by the best. (Son Cliff also has one, so I know.) Surely on the pure basis of longevity, faithfulness, and reliability, we could say the Lehman is just a wee bit cool...?

Eric, best of luck on your upcoming voyage, and I urge you not to give up at all, but just as you are willing to change your ideas about anchors, so it is time with oils. (Remember you are never too old to learn a new trick...). I run 10w-40 Magnatec oil in my Lehman and it loves it. I also run the recommended 5w-30 Magnatec, as recommended here in Oz, in our Subaru Outback. Horses for courses, but progress cannot be stopped.

Peter B said:

... is way cool is because even today it still sounds good and works well, as well as being around a long time, and had been used by the best.

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Sort of like this engine ...

The 'old tech' Lehman does have one advantage over modern engines. That is that the fuel system is mechanical and does not require any electricity after the engine is started. I have read about failures of modern engines when the control box (computer) quits! One failure was very simple, an electrical connector became disconnected, and the engine quit running! It seems that the truck based electrical connectors were not up to marine use requirements.

Peter B said:

Surely on the pure basis of longevity, faithfulness, and reliability, we could say the Lehman is just a wee bit cool...?

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You can if you like. It's a museum exhibit as far as I'm concerned.

Larry H said:

The 'old tech' Lehman does have one advantage over modern engines. That is that the fuel system is mechanical and does not require any electricity after the engine is started..

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My Volvo takes no electricity to run once it's started. It does, however, take electricity to stop and at times, that worries me.