My synthetic vs dino oil experience, WOW!

Daddyo said:

I wish these threads were read in their entirety. The cost is virtually identical even before figuring a longer duty cycle for the syn. 4 quarts dino $14 vs 5 quarts syn $18. As I had stated in a previous thread when I asked Bob Smith last fall he said he saw no problem with using a syn just didn't see an advantage if it was more expensive (it's not).

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Usually the cost between syn and dino is not the same. For Rotella dino $13 for Rotella Syn $22 tmes 4 gallons per engine is almost $40 per change. Even more if you use a pure syn like Mobile 1 that's $50+ per qt sixpack.

But as been said before...for the average boter that's only about $100 per year..but for a long distance cruiser...it could be easily double or triple that.

alormaria - Using a bypass system is ONLY OK if you are having regular oil analysis done..you have to worry about both filtration AND oil chemistry.

Using a bypass system is ONLY OK if you are having regular oil analysis done..you have to worry about both filtration AND oil chemistry.

AND run your hours in the prescribed "in engine " time.

OTR trucks 10 hours a day and commercial boats can do this , but the clock ticking on the required time changes makes syn a poor choice for pleasure boat engines.

Transmissions are a different matter. As are perhaps noisemakers if used enough.

FF

on a side note I switched from st 30 weight to muti vis oil on my 120 on 200 hr trip my oil usage went from a qt every 20hrs to a qt every 60 hrs 80 hrs same oil same rpm

motion30 said:

on a side note I switched from st 30 weight to muti vis oil on my 120 on 200 hr trip my oil usage went from a qt every 20hrs to a qt every 60 hrs 80 hrs same oil same rpm

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I had a similar experience years ago with my Perkins T6.354.

motion30 said:

on a side note I switched from st 30 weight to muti vis oil on my 120 on 200 hr trip my oil usage went from a qt every 20hrs to a qt every 60 hrs 80 hrs same oil same rpm

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I was blowing off the sny/dino discussion. But this has gotten my attention.

BaltimoreLurker said:

I was blowing off the sny/dino discussion. But this has gotten my attention.

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same make oil , rotella I know my motor manual called for st 30wt but that book was written 30years ago A trucker friend talked me into switching I have no other explantion but that was my experience

I use more oil that I think is reasonable. But I figured, hey, it's a 35 - 40 year old engine, been through Lord knows how many owners, seen unknown abuse .. so, fine, it's not like I'm buying oil in 55 gallon drums.

But I'm going to switch over to a Rotella multi-vis and see how it goes.

A good, useful tip. Thanks!

Lurker,
Perhaps you have some stuck rings.
Have you done lots of underloading?
A cure may be an oil additive called "Sea Foam" and a switch to W40 oil. I've used Sea Foam as far back as the 50s but then it was called "Risoline". It's very effective and I've experienced no ill effects.
A compression test or leak down test may tell you what you need to know.

Motion,

Your trucker friend needs the multi-vis but you do'nt. Imagine him at a motel at the bottom of a steep grade. Early in the cold morning hours he's going to be putting a very heavy load on his engine w minimal warm up.

jleonard,

I suspect there may have been other variables involved. The additive package is an obvious difference between the two oils and other variables probably were in the mix as well.

manyboats said:

Lurker,
Perhaps you have some stuck rings.
Have you done lots of underloading?
A cure may be an oil additive called "Sea Foam" and a switch to W40 oil. I've used Sea Foam as far back as the 50s but then it was called "Risoline". It's very effective and I've experienced no ill effects.
A compression test or leak down test may tell you what you need to know.

Motion,

Your trucker friend needs the multi-vis but you do'nt. Imagine him at a motel at the bottom of a steep grade. Early in the cold morning hours he's going to be putting a very heavy load on his engine w minimal warm up.

jleonard,

I suspect there may have been other variables involved. The additive package is an obvious difference between the two oils and other variables probably were in the mix as well.

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It's ALSO about starting the engine in cold/cooler temps....

"about"?

Sounds like your'e trying to imply that a trawler engine won't crank over fast enough to start normally in cold weather. My engine starts normally always. Even in the winter in Alaska and I use a mix of 30W and 40W Delo 400. Do'nt need multi-vis or synthetic oil.

manyboats said:

"about"?

Sounds like your'e trying to imply that a trawler engine won't crank over fast enough to start normally in cold weather. My engine starts normally always. Even in the winter in Alaska and I use a mix of 30W and 40W Delo 400. Do'nt need multi-vis or synthetic oil.

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Just my opinion that a multi can make starting easier...especially if the batt is weak. Don't NEED it..some may just prefer it. One Lehman manual I have suggests ALL multi oils...NO single weights...

It get's colder here in Jersey, even late fall than it ever did the 2 years I was on Kodiak....

Yup.........Kodiak's an island right in the Japanese current. and your'e right ...there are colder places than where I live in Alaska. psneeld, I used 15W40 truck oil for a couple of years before switching to 30W and now 35W oil and I can't tell a difference in the cranking speed. I'd rather have the multi-vis additives out of my oil ........and that's an opinion too. I do think single weight oil is better in our trawlers but I also think nobody is going to measure or experience a difference and it's absolutely fly stuff. One thing I'm quite sure of though is that there will be a thicker film of oil on engine parts in the engine where W30 (or W40) oil is used.

manyboats said:

Lurker,
Perhaps you have some stuck rings.
Have you done lots of underloading?
A cure may be an oil additive called "Sea Foam" and a switch to W40 oil. I've used Sea Foam as far back as the 50s but then it was called "Risoline". It's very effective and I've experienced no ill effects.
A compression test or leak down test may tell you what you need to know.

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Stuck rings? God, I hope not. The Lehman is the best part of my boat! But I don't think it's a real problem. She's not using THAT much oil. And she barely smokes, even on start-up, except on cold days. If a multi-vis will produce better results I'll give it a shot.

Slightly off topic - I have used Sea Foam on my truck to try to fix a problem mis-diagnosed by both the dealer and independent shops. It helped for short periods. I turned to a Ranger forum, posed the question and got the correct fix in about 30 minutes. The fix cost about $3.99. That was after spending ~$2k on the experts. Now, whenever there is a problem I go to the forums first. I've taken info from the Ranger forum to the dealer who argued with me about the problem, even though it was in a Ford Service Bulletin. The Forum guys were correct. The dealer was clueless, but unapologetic when proved wrong.

BaltimoreLurker said:

Stuck rings? God, I hope not. The Lehman is the best part of my boat! But I don't think it's a real problem. She's not using THAT much oil. And she barely smokes, even on start-up, except on cold days. If a multi-vis will produce better results I'll give it a shot.

Slightly off topic - I have used Sea Foam on my truck to try to fix a problem mis-diagnosed by both the dealer and independent shops. It helped for short periods. I turned to a Ranger forum, posed the question and got the correct fix in about 30 minutes. The fix cost about $3.99. That was after spending ~$2k on the experts. Now, whenever there is a problem I go to the forums first. I've taken info from the Ranger forum to the dealer who argued with me about the problem, even though it was in a Ford Service Bulletin. The Forum guys were correct. The dealer was clueless, but unapologetic when proved wrong.

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Agreed ..forums are a great source of info and misinfo...the Ford truck forum allowed me to go into the dealer with a problem a few years back.... I was betting the forum was right based on symptoms and a few simple checks....they were...dealer cost me $350 and $100 of it was the computer check to figure out what I already knew and told the dealership...but they do their thing and that's OK.

Last summer...same problem...I fixed it in 3 hours in the marina parking lot for free.

That's the only $350 I've spent on the 2001 truck with over 165,000 miles on it other than oil changes, 2 sets of brake pads and tires. It was used with 35,000 miles when I got her.

Forums are a goldmine if you are smart enough to toss the fools gold...

I'm just surprised that someone would take a boat with two engines and run one type of oil in one and a different oil in the other.

I suppose it's a "test", but not a very scientific test. No hard data, no measurements, etc.

rwidman said:

I'm just surprised that someone would take a boat with two engines and run one type of oil in one and a different oil in the other.

I suppose it's a "test", but not a very scientific test. No hard data, no measurements, etc.

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What is your point? What's surprising about running different oils?

I like your initiative...seeing what works better out there in living color can be a real eyeopener. As long as you are using oils within spec and just seeing what you "think" is better is great.

My hat's off to ya!

Daddyo - I like what you did. I'd guess R Widman must be envious of twins and all the advantages they offer, such as sided by side testing.

rwidman said:

I'm just surprised that someone would take a boat with two engines and run one type of oil in one and a different oil in the other.

I suppose it's a "test", but not a very scientific test. No hard data, no measurements, etc.

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Where else you could you find 2 near identical engines with near identical wear and near identical loads to do a comparison with?

Getting back to your OP I see you have one engine w 5W30 oil and one engine w 30W oil. You should pull out the 30W and sub 5W30 dino oil. If you can find Dino 5W30. I know you won't find 30W synthetic as synthetic w/o any VI improvers will test multi vis. So I think you need to do the test over w apples and apples.

I have some waterfront property in Arizona that I want to sell.

The problem with this test is, more than one variable was changed. The Walmart oil was, of course, a different brand. It was also a multi viscosity oil and a synthetic. Which of these variables made the difference? And how was the difference determined? With test instruments?

Was the improvement on startup (possibly explained by the multi-viscosity oil) or at all times? Was a test conducted with conventional multi-viscosity oil?

For a valid test, there would be only one variable at a time, instruments would be used to record the sound and "smoothness", and the test would be repeated on multiple engines.

If the OP is convinced that Walmart multi viscosity synthetic oil is an improvement, he should put it in his other engine and continue using it. We all have our favorites, that is why there is more than one brand on the shelf.

The other question would be; Is your engine rated for 5W30 oil? I suspect that's a little thin for most older diesel engines. Mine calls for 15/40.

manyboats said:

I think you need to do the test over w apples and apples.

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Apples don't work all that well. Bananas, on the other hand, have proven to be effective in many applications.

Multi-viscosity is for temp ranges.....as long as it meets the API requirements and the temp range is OK for 30 weight it should be OK

...again...most newer oils if they are any good at all (and some aren't...but Walmart's oil at the time of a recent boating mag test fared pretty well) are gonna be fine and your engine will probably die from some other reason than oil.

As far as science and this "test"...well less sound is usually scientific enough for me. Especially if it being created by something other than exhaust, then by nature it is bad and lessening it is better for the engine/boat in general.

Rick B,
Indeed ...... I've read about engines running 100% on bananas. Seems I read about people doing that in the 1930 depression.

I'm inclined ti criticize Daddyo's "experiment" but I just modified an anchor and it's not very scientific at all. But there's something to be gained in the anchor experiment and nothing to be gained from running synthetic oil in an old Lehman or perhaps in any engine we'd be likely to have in our trawlers. I've run synthetic oil in quite a few motorcycles and never noticed any difference but I've never run anything that was rated as a 5W lubricant. Our trawler engines last so so much longer than we will ever run them there's just nothing to be gained. Unless great fuel mileage is to be had (and I'm not talking about 1 or 2%) there just seems to be nothing to be gained.

I think I'm inclined to believe Daddyo's experience may be (no offense Daddyo) that he's hearing things or not hearing things because he wants to experience a difference. But I do'nt think it's there. I still think there's nothing better than straight 30W dino oil (or if you must 15W40) for our engines. AND I still think there's nothing wrong w using synthetic lube oil other than the much higher price. All (or most) engine manuals have a chart that shows what viscosity of oil to use at what temperatures and I think this should be followed. And I think if one is going to lean one should lean a bit toward higher viscosity but not toward lower. But leaning is not desired or necessary. But if the 5W part of Daddyo's experiment is covered in the manual and and he feels good about it I see no reason for him to stop ...... but I do'nt think that's the case. However I have done things not covered in manuals and had very excellent service w the deviations. And I'd like to hear if Daddyo's synthetic engine experiences premature wear.

manyboats said:

...but I've never run anything that was rated as a 5W lubricant.

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Well, you'd love the oil that's required in our new Subaru Forester. Synthetic 0-20 weight. Have no idea how one derives a zero weight oil but they did. And, according to the paperwork, not using this oil in the engine voids the warranty. They do make an exception--- in case of an "emergency" non-synthetic oil can be used but only long enough to get the vehicle to where the oil can be changed to the required 0-20 weight synthetic.

I asked the dealer's shop manager why such super-light oil and he said it's because of the very tight tolerances in the engine and the fact that the newest version of Subaru's horizontally opposed four cylinder engine uses a timing chain instead of a timing belt. Have no idea if this is valid info or not, but that's what I was told.

Put 0-20 synthetic in a Lehman with a few thousand hours on it and I bet you'd hear noises that you never knew an engine could make

Marin said:

I asked the dealer's shop manager why such super-light oil and he said it's because of the very tight tolerances in the engine and the fact that the newest version of Subaru's horizontally opposed four cylinder engine uses a timing chain instead of a timing belt. Have no idea if this is valid info or not, but that's what I was told.

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Sounds a bit suspect. At least the part about the timing chains. Porsche 911's used chains in all 911 flat six, one on each side, and the early ones used 30W then went to 20-40W. Never a chain problem. We did have a chain tensioner problem in the early 65-69 engines but that got corrected. It wasn't the oils fault.

All our current vehicles, 1973 Land Rover, Ford F-250 pickup, Range Rover, BMW, and new Subaru have timing chains. I got the impression from the service manager that the issue wasn't having a chain but the clearances and type of chain it is.

Marin,
We're not talking Sabaru's and stuff ......... we're talk'in boats and diesel's in paticular.

What happens when the Subaru gets old and the clearances are'nt so tight? They just want you to use the thin low vis stuff so their Subaru's have the best EPA millage numbers possible. Evinrude requires that I have my dealer change my computer on my e-tech outboard to run 100-1 oil mix (from 50-1) after break-in too but I'll never do it. I'm quite sure they play the 100-1 game so they can sell their engines ..... I mean sell them at all. Without that clause and the necessity of it's requirement I'm sure Evinrude wouldn't recommend 100-1. McCullough tried that way back in about the late 70s. Probably had a lot to do w their demise.

But I'll give you two thumbs up on chain drive camshafts. Without a doubt the better mousetrap.