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psneeld said:
You are kidding about the Danforth statement....I hope...otherwise I'm not sure how you think anchors work.

I try very hard and give credit to people in these forums till they come out with stuff that's OFF THE MAP about things....The danforth will dig till the pull is overcome by resistance or the flukes break off. That's why they blow all other anchors off the scale for holding in similat situations...the problem is they are finicky...but a set one will never fail in a straight line pull unless IT breaks or the bottom breaks free (assuming the scope doesn't exceed it's design angle but that's true of all anchors except cement blocks)
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No, not kidding...I've owned and used Danforths all the time I had a yacht (sail boat), and I often dived on the anchor, and usually found the flukes buried, but the long horizontal bar the flukes rotate on at the end furthest from the shank, seemed to stick out beyond the flukes edges and stop it digging any further. Of course it might have been we never subjected it to enough force to pull it under, so if you can assure me the whole fluke end goes in under the bottom in a good pull, I'm happy to accept that and stand corrected. They certainly set well usually, except when they pick up a can on the bottom, as mine did twice.
 
With reference to the slot and its functioning, and thanks for clarifying a few of the technical aspects of the testing there Rex, but in all fairness, Marin has only had contact with and recounted stories from those who maintain their Manson Supreme tripped themselves and dragged, never a Sarca. More experience with Sarcas, as they are now going to soon become available over there, will be the clincher I feel. As Rex said - personal use and experience beats everything else when it comes to convincing oneself of how reliably they work. Once you have, you are sold, and then you can see how you can dispense with floats and trip-lines forever, without sacrificing that peace of mind. It's the old story once again of the "proof of the pudding", really...
 
That horizontal bar that sticks out is the "stock". At one time there were mostly anchors w stocks like the Kedge and Herrishoff (frequently refereed to as Yachtsman's anchors) and CQR, Dreadnought, Forfjord's and others as "stockless anchors". As far as I know now there is only one anchor w a stock....Danforth. In soft stuff the stock would get buried as well and get into the act of increasing resistance. My Danforth has always set and held well.

Re the slot. When the rode gets sideways and worse the Supreme may handle the situation somewhat or considerably different than other slotted anchors. As for Marin's friends on his "dock" raving about the Rocna I think it's only a matter of time until they start telling stories about dragging. If you use ANY anchor long enough it will drag. The bottom seems to be the weakest link in anchor performance. And psneeld I think the only reason a Danforth could break out like was discussed is because of bottom irregularities.......the weakest link.

Now that I've seen the Anchor Right DVD on the Super Sarca and Sarca Ex-cel I'm ready to pass it along. Send me your mailing address and I'll send the DVD.
 
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manyboats said:
As for Marin's friends on his "dock" raving about the Rocna I think it's only a matter of time until they start telling stories about dragging. If you use ANY anchor long enough it will drag.
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They aren't all on my dock, they are in my marina. And you could be right. But when we were searching for a Bruce replacement we read a ton of user testimonials about all sorts of anchors that were available then (seven years or so ago). The Rocna and the Bugel had by far the most positive user testimonials, almost all of which were from boaters who had been using other types of anchors (Bruce, CQR, etc.) and had experienced problems. Since switching to the rollbar anchors, they wrote, their anchoring problems ceased.

One of the most convincing was from the owner of a large charter company in the Mediterranean. His customers were constantly having problems with the "conventional" anchors on his large fleet of boats. Some of them had resulted in some pretty substantial damage and insurance claims. Then he said a friend told him about the Bugel. So he investigated the anchor, liked what he saw, and installed some on some of his fleet. According to what he wrote, his customers' anchoring problems with those boats stopped. So he outfitted his entire fleet with Bugels and he said that anchoring became a non-issue from that point forward. He claimed it was the best single investment he had ever made to improve his fleet.

So that's what rollbar anchor users have been saying for quite awhile. I don't disagree with you that any anchor can drag under the right (or wrong) circumstances. But the user evidence seems to indicate that the rollbar anchors are less prone to it in a variety of circumstances all over the world than the so-called "conventional" anchors.
 
Marin
Which model do you use?
 
sucking it up

To all,
I entered this forum a couple of nights ago around one am, after reading back through my post’s I really feel some embarrassment from the way in which I tried to get some points across, Marin I sincerely apologize for insulting you and to anyone else my comments may have offended.

Though my concerns were genuine Re distinction of brand names with slotted shanks I could have handled it a lot better, make no mistake, if you apply the D shackle directly to the slotted rail on any other brand than Sarca you are more than likely GOING TO FIND OUT THE DIFFERENCE THE HARD WAY, I say again, even the manufacturers of the other brands recommends the d Shackle to be fixed to the separate captive hole when anchor ring overnight.

I have been explaining the concept of the Sarca now for seventeen years, answering the same questions, documenting its now proven performance on boats ranging from fizz boats to 300 ton trawlers, certification, videos that will all ways create controversy but the public demand them regardless, still explaining, I suppose eventually the old hide starts to where thin, who would want to design bloody anchors, no I am not complaining just have to get the mind back on track.

Yes I made an assumption and for that reason have apologized to pseeld , I can remember after being married for approx. six years with a couple of children I had an occasion where I thought I had to remind the missus of what our wedding vows meant, yes I am afraid she very quickly made me realize I was assuming.

Regards.
Rex.
CEO of Anchor Right Australia
 
av8r--- We have a Rocna 20 (44 pounds). Ours was fabricated by Mark Pocock's Suncoast Marine in Vancouver, BC back when they first started making Rocna's for the North American market. We bought it from Mark on the recommendation of Rocna in New Zealand who told me that the shipping costs on an anchor of this weight from NZ was really high and that Mark had started making the Rocna for them in Vancouver and in fact was using some manufacturing techniques that were more advanced at the time that Rocna was using in NZ. So instead of spending a bazillion dollars shipping a Rocna 20 up from NZ we drove up to Vancouver one Saturday and simply picked it up from Mark. And US customs--- apparently not realizing how much anchors can cost-- had no interest in charging us duty even though we told them that's what we'd driven up to Vancouver to buy and there it is in the back of the Range Rover. The agent glanced at it and sent us on our way. :)

Rex--- All the user reports my wife and I have read over the years about the rode shackle sliding down the slot and backing the anchor out when the boat got more than 90 degrees off to the side of the shank, and the videos we've seen showing this, were about the Manson. The Sarca was not, and I guess is still not, an anchor marketed and sold in North America.

Based on what I've read and seen, I don't trust the slot on any anchor due to my previously stated philosophy of "anything that can happen eventually will happen." The other problem is that accommodating the slot makes the shank too tall to fit under the pulpit bails on many boats, including ours. But FWIW and from what I can recall, the anchors that people were complaining about in what we've read were Mansons, not Sarcas.
 
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Point taken

Hi Marin,
I except your point, unusual for me to defend an opposition company but in all fairness to Manson when those videos surfaced showing the Manson being backed out there was a marketing campaign going on by a certain company whilst in their plight to gain market share, all and any manufacturer was fair game and firmly in their sight, I for one was on the receiving end and forced to defend ourselves, if you know the source from whom the video came from is credible then fine, if not then I would be asking the question.

The ruthless marketing campaign that was going on is a direct result as to why there is a comparison of that companies anchor on our DVD, the Manson Supreme is on their simply because it was Lloyds approved and was designated by the N.M.S.C. National Marine Safety Committee for us to test against to gauge performance of our anchor designs for S/H/H/Power certification.

Have we tested the Manson so called trip release backing out problem, well of course, our trip release had to prove it was reliable and whether or not we had to have a separate hole same as the Manson, our design was approved without it, what were the findings on the Manson trip release, that is not for me to comment.

I have decided, don’t ask me why I haven’t done this before, maybe because I know how the slot works it never seemed to me a big deal, I will video over the next couple of months the program that was set out by thy testing authority ROBERTSONS, their rigorous anti trip procedure, you may still not believe what you see but it will certainly open your eyes as to how it works and why we stand by what we say, further if not convinced the trip slot can simply be cancelled out with its lock bolt.

Just maybe I won’t have to explain this method again. I should also add does this mean you will never lose your Sarca, by no means, the trip release simply gives you the best chance of retrieving, like all other aspects of anchoring much of it is compromise plagued and controlled by variables many times, I also believe 75 percent of these variables are controlled by little knowledge of simply understanding the fundamentals of how to anchor a boat and correct anchor size.

Regards.
Rex.
CEO of Anchor Right Australia.
 
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Rex--- Just curious but have you ever considered making a version of the Sarca but without the slot? This would eliminate, at least in people's minds if not in reality, the element of risk posed by a slotted anchor shank and also eliminate the too-tall shank on the slotted Sarca. Leave everything else exactly the same, just exchange the tall, slotted shank for a more normally dimensioned solid shank in the otherwise unchanged manufacturing process.

I don't know much about manufacturing but it would seem to me that on something as simple and basic as the kind of casting-cutting-forging-welding job fabricating an anchor appears to be that making a slotless version of the Sarca with a more standard height shank would open up a potential market that would more than cover what I would guess would be the fairly low cost of providing the optional shank.
 
tall shanks

Marin I see your point, but you know the original concave Sarca anchor had a solid shank, when we invented this anchor we wanted something that could be used as a multipurpose anchor, by simply playing around with the idea of an automatic reset trip release ,we were quite amazed when we discovered after much development that we could incorporate this feature and actually bring it to life.

Now from a yachters point of view it wasn’t such a big deal but our research was telling us that the trailer boat industry and the commercial industry, large vessels believed if we were successful it would be a god send to them, simply the large commercial vessels were snapping of their CQR designs every other month when anchored in lime stone of which there is plenty of here in Australia.

The trailer boat industry literally fell in love with them as they were now deploying one anchor for all of their needs, fisherman that is, the tall shank as you describe it really never became an issue, most of them simply tig welding a U shape bar over the top of their original bow roller, and that has gone on since that time to the point where many yachts now fit the Sarca as well.

Unfortunately what was realized is that the hoop was the biggest drawback, not the tall shank as you call it, any boat with a pull pit rather than the STD front roller assembly simply would not accept the hoop arrangement, the pull pit arrangement that is now becoming far more common and creating a demand for a more generic style anchor with new generation performance, we were quick to recognized this.

So how does one develop a more generic style anchor, well by this time we had developed the incredible T.AT.S. Rig the tidal anchor test skid of which I might add is now accepted here in Australia as a new and more accurate method for testing anchors for S/H/H/Power certification, quantifiable and reproducible results without the many variables created when testing with a Tug.

So with the aid of T.A.T.S. we developed the incredible Excel Range, without going into it the Excel is literally gaining traction and keeping us under pressure with its fast growing popularity, again it is a S/H/H/Power anchor certified tried and now proven, yesterday we sent a 40 KG to France, freight cost more than the anchor but who’s complaining, so really we do have something to offer the market whether the shank is to tall or the hoop won’t fit the Excel will suffice.

Something that should be noted, when marketing our products throughout the industry we never see the scrutinizing from any part of market like we do when our products are discussed in forums such as yours , I don’t see this is a bad thing but a lot of hard work to convince you guys.

Regards.
Rex.
CEO of Anchor Right Australia.
 
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"I would think any anchor would break out with a 180 degree reversal of pull. And most anchors will reset. But w an anchor that is not perfect (all as you pointed out) resetting is not a sure thing as Marin has pointed out. I think we are thinking as the bulk of anchor buyers would think. As soon as they thought of the 180 reversal they'd say nix on that one."

This is why Danforth in their booklet suggests using at least 2 Danforths (one is a stern anchor).

For inshore folks anchoring in a tidal river the prayer that the anchor will reset it self every few hours , the use of the stern anchor saves worry.

With a proper technique the stern anchor is but a moments work .

Far easier to learn how to do it , than keeping a night watch.

FF
 
The problem w for and aft anchoring is that when the wind comes from the side the tension on the rodes is high and at least one anchor is going to drag. Of course if it drags enough the geometry will lessen the tension on the rodes but by that time one may be aground. Anchoring on the assumption that ther'e will be no wind is a dangerous proposition. But there are times and places where that is the best option......a good one or not usually wins when there is only one option.
 
manyboats said:
The problem w for and aft anchoring is that when the wind comes from the side the tension on the rodes is high and at least one anchor is going to drag. Of course if it drags enough the geometry will lessen the tension on the rodes but by that time one may be aground. Anchoring on the assumption that ther'e will be no wind is a dangerous proposition. But there are times and places where that is the best option......a good one or not usually wins when there is only one option.
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One anchor drags, the boat turns in the tide/wind/current and the rodes get tangled under the boat or in the prop/rudder and you've got a real mess. Never again for me.
 
manyboats said:
The problem w for and aft anchoring is that when the wind comes from the side the tension on the rodes is high and at least one anchor is going to drag.../QUOTE]

That's why we use a small stern anchor. When we were on the Pacific coast of Mexico and Central America we would use stern anchor to keep the bow or stern into the swell. A lot of the anchorages are open road-stead. We have a 25 lb danforth with a float at the bitter end. If high side winds or a squall come up, we would either drag the stern anchor or drop the rode. We made sure we didn't have to worry about other boats when we did this. We never fouled with our running gear although we did get tangled up in a gill net once that had set behind us. Retrieval/setting is easy with the dinghy.

Here's a picture of Horizons, 105' supply vessel for Tyson's Choice. I shot the picture when we were in Costa Rica. They also have a stern anchor out. I didn't see what size it was but I'm sure it was smaller than their bow anchor.
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Larry M said:
manyboats said:
The problem w for and aft anchoring is that when the wind comes from the side the tension on the rodes is high and at least one anchor is going to drag.../QUOTE]

That's why we use a small stern anchor. When we were on the Pacific coast of Mexico and Central America we would use stern anchor to keep the bow or stern into the swell. A lot of the anchorages are open road-stead. We have a 25 lb danforth with a float at the bitter end. If high side winds or a squall come up, we would either drag the stern anchor or drop the rode. We made sure we didn't have to worry about other boats when we did this. We never fouled with our running gear although we did get tangled up in a gill net once that had set behind us. Retrieval/setting is easy with the dinghy.

Here's a picture of Horizons, 105' supply vessel for Tyson's Choice. I shot the picture when we were in Costa Rica. They also have a stern anchor out. I didn't see what size it was but I'm sure it was smaller than their bow anchor.
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excellent post with the total concept of anchoring...the sign of an avid and regular cruiser....at least in some parts of the world where all this works out ok due to bottom, depth, etc...etc... :thumb:
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Larry,
That makes sense. Make sure which anchor is going to drag. And using a much smaller anchor to position the stern to orient the vessel into the swell is probably done very frequently in some places. Rolling is the pits. I have Thought about using fore and aft anchors a number of times to anchor in a small narrow spot without swinging room and consider it less than ideal for that. However in many of such places the wind is usually parallel to these narrow anchorages. Nice boat the Horizon.
 
manyboats said:
Nice boat the Horizon.
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Eric: We were fortunate to spend several days at 2 different anchors last year with Horizon and Tyson's Pride (brain fart in an earlier post when I said Tyson's Choice). Both are owned by the Tyson chicken family. Horizon is the supply/mother vessel to Tyson's Pride, a 72' Merritt. Horizon is a converted 105 foot supply vessel that carries over 100,000 gallons of fuel, 3 plus months of provisions with accommodations for guests and and crew from both vessels. Tyson's Pride goes out fishing during the day while Horizon moves to the next anchorage or sits tight. At night, Tyson's Pride side ties to Horizon. The crew plugs in and services her so she's ready to go the next day. Both vessels have pretty much been all over the world. They use cable/wire rope. I don't remember what type of anchor they use. It's an interesting set up and nice people even if we didn't get to go fishing with them.
 

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manyboats said:
And using a much smaller anchor to position the stern to orient the vessel into the swell is probably done very frequently in some places.
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We do that on a regular basis since some of the bays we anchor in are fairly narrow so the waves from the outside always come straight down them even thought the wind in the bay can be off at an angle. So we use the stern anchor to hold us into the waves. We use a Fortress for our stern anchor. It's sized to be the boat's main anchor but it's very light so it's easy to deploy which encourages us to use it rather than enduring a rolling motion for hours on end.
 
Haha.....never done multi-anchors but we've got a sack full of anchors and two rodes so we're ready to hang two. Prolly w a good weather forecast and enough slack to keep us off the beach or rocks. Ther'e will be plenty of the latter where wer'e going.

Speak'in of anchors my XYZ is in the machine shop getting it's experimental fluke tip made. The man's really busy this time of year so I hope he has the time to finish it.

Larry that sport fisher looks heavy in the stern but perhaps its just got low freeboard to do the fishing. Beautiful boats.
 
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