Charts for inside passage?

koliver said:

Problem with taking the liberal interpretation of the rule....if you are being checked by the CCGA (of which I am a member, trained in CE (courtesty examination)) the only recognized compliance with the "Chart rule" is to have the paper charts. This is not to say your electronic charts are no good, it is the inherent unreliability of the electronics on the boat, that at the critical moment will fail, leaving you with no charts at all. Your paper charts can get burned up in a fire, but short of that, will keep on giving you their information through all weather, mechanical failures and electronic failures.

My boat carries CHS CDs of the entire coast and paper charts of the entire inside passage, as far up as Capre Caution. If I ever stray north of there, I will carry paper charts.

I find planning is more fun when poring over paper charts than peering at my laptop. A larger format is much more effective.

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I am in full agreement with the idea of carrying paper charts and I do carry them.
However I am still confused over the "liberal interpretation' versus the "legal interpretation' of the rules.
Is there a legal penalty for NOT carrying paper charts if you have the CHS CD's and two separate means of displaying them?
Bob

sunchaser said:

Marin

Is the Navimatics tides and charts package for both the PNW US and Canada a stand alone App?

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Not sure how you define stand-alone, but it is a complete app that includes all the charts from the US-Mexico border up to and including the entire state of Alaska. Oh, it also includes Hawaii. I includes all the tide and current tables--- tap on the T or C icon on the chart and you immediately get the table for that day. You can scroll back and forth on the table to get a specific time and you can roll the selector wheels to get whatever month, day, and year you want.

You can scroll with your finger all the way from the bottom to the top of the charts--- they connect seamlessly. The outlines of the charts that are in your field of view on the display are shown as red boxes. But scrolling, zooming in and out, or rotating the display around is completely seamless. You can also put the display in North up or "free" which lets you rotate the charts around however you want. The charts are vector charts, not raster charts. So rotating a chart does not rotate the names, etc. on the chart.

Like a full-up plotter, you can tap on a navaid or other feature and you will get the information about that feature. The app uses all the symbols, terms, and definitions used in Chart 1.

You can put in a waypoint and you can navigate to it but so far as I've been able to determine reading the user guide you cannot make or store routes. You can store waypoints and call them up from a bookmark menu and navigate to one from your current position. But it doesn't look like you can string waypoints together in to a route.

It has what they call an HSI (Horizontal Situation Indicator) that looks very much like the one you'd have in an airplane. So if you put in or select a stored waypoint and navigate to it, you can call up the HSI which will be overlaid on the screen and this shows you your track, how far off your course line you are, and which way to steer to get back onto your course line.

It also has a "ruler" that lets you put two points on a chart and measure the straight line distance between them as well as get a bearing.

But I would not consider it an equal alternative to the Navionics app which as I understand it is much more of a full-function navigation package. But if your primary interest is in having all the charts in one place on a high-res screen that lets you zoom in and our and move around them at will plus have all the tide and current tables for the stations up and down the coast as well as all the navaid, obstruction, and features information, it's perfect so far as I'm concerned.

You do not need to be online to use the charts or the features like tide and current tables, or navigate to a waypoint, and so on. You DO need to be online to receive the latest updates from Active Captain if you have an Active Captain account. But once the current Active Captain info is downloaded to your iPad, you don't need to be online to view it.

The US & Canada West Coast is a separate app. There are also apps for the US West Coast only, the east coast (US only or US & Canada), the Great Lakes and perhaps others.

weebobby said:

I am in full agreement with the idea of carrying paper charts and I do carry them.
However I am still confused over the "liberal interpretation' versus the "legal interpretation' of the rules.
Is there a legal penalty for NOT carrying paper charts if you have the CHS CD's and two separate means of displaying them?
Bob

Click to expand...

I think, reading the post above that quotes the actual law...

(2) The master and owner of a ship of less than 100 tons are not required to have on board the charts, documents and publications referred to in subsection (1) if the person in charge of navigation has sufficient knowledge of the following information, such that safe and efficient navigation in the area where the ship is to be navigated is not compromised:

• (a) the location and character of charted
  • (i) shipping routes,
  • (ii) lights, buoys and marks, and
  • (iii) navigational hazards; and
• (b) the prevailing navigational conditions, taking into account such factors as tides, currents, ice and weather patterns.

Since we generally do not operate boats over 100 tons, we're good to go. I think electronic charts fully complies with the subset of the law, as I read it.

ksanders said:

I think electronic charts fully complies with the subset of the law, as I read it.

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And how would you know that your electronic charts are "the most recent editions of the charts"? And can you update them with the appropriate NOTMAR?

I've been boating in the PNW for more than 30 years and I don't recall hearing about anyone falling afoul of this requirement.

Liquor and guns on the other hand...

refugio said:

And how would you know that your electronic charts are "the most recent editions of the charts"? And can you update them with the appropriate NOTMAR?

I've been boating in the PNW for more than 30 years and I don't recall hearing about anyone falling afoul of this requirement.

Liquor and guns on the other hand...

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Please read my entire post...

The law dows not indicate that there is ANY need for charts for vessels under 100 tons.

It says that you have to have specific knowlege. It does not indicate the source of that knowlege.

PS---- Tom--- I just joined Active Captain and downloaded their current data base to the Navimatics app on my iPad. It's fantastic. The ActiveCaptain icons appear on the chart display and tapping them gets you all the information people have entered about that location--- marina facilities, user ratings, navigation hints, etc., etc., etc. You may have already subscribed to Active Captain but this is the first time I've actually seen and used it. Between it and the Navimatics chart application it's the best trip planning-enroute charting and information program I've seen yet.

It's NOT a good active navigation program, but to see the charts, get current and tide information and with Active Captain layered right onto the charts, get tons of user information about where you are boating all on the same screen, it's terrific. Well worth the $25.

Who get's to determine sufficient knowledge

Is this one of times when your legal until something screws up and attorneys and insurance companies get to make that decision? Since 1995 we've learned to trust and rely on electronic data, I have never heard of anybody losing a boat because their electronic nav gear failed. I have heard of accidents due to cell phone use and probably before long someone with they're head in their electronics and not looking through the wind shield. I too use a pc with all US and Canadian charts, all my trip planning is done on that pc. I have a 22" monitor on my dash and just find it too convenient to plan that way. My chart drawer is jammed with charts, hope they're not all stuck together.

Carriage of paper charts in Canada

Carriage of paper charts in Canada

Not to beat that dead horse but after a lot of mind numbing reading I think I may finally have wrapped my head around this paper chart question at least to my own satisfaction.
If you are running an official CHS (Canadian Hydrographic Services) ENC (electronic nautical chart) using an ECDIS (Electronic charting and information system) , then as long as you also have an approved back-up ECDIS you do NOT need to carry paper charts.
If, like most of us , you are using either CHS BSB4 Raster charts on a computer based navigation system OR are using, for example, Navionics platinum + in a chartplotter like my Raymarine E120, then you ARE required to carry paper charts.
The raster BSB4 chart CD’s for the west coast of Canada cost $525 total while the ENC CD’s cost $1200, I have no idea what an approved ECDIS costs but know that my integrated Raymarine MFD system does not qualify.
Maybe the question was only in my own mind but FWIW that’s my take on it.
I have never heard of anybody being cited for NOT having paper charts and have no idea what , if any , penalty may apply.
Bottom line-I think we " mostly" agree that paper charts are a good thing to have aboard.

Bob

If you are cheap like me there are second hand/wave marine stores that have many of the guides/charts available for cents on the dollar. For the cost of paper charts, $1000+, it might be cheaper to buy a back up electronic chart program. For paper charts I like the large area charts to give a general idea and the electronic charts for closure detail.

Gee I remember the days of Loran and we plotted by hand our location, and we use a COMPASS, and depth sounder. I bought a hand help Garmin GPS and electronic charts, Chart Pro, 15+ years ago, and they still work. The recovery time was 30+ seconds and accuracy with in a 50 yard, which I thought was fantastic. Also Radar can be a good back up if you can see/use the coast line which gives you good idea.

I use to teach navigation and boat handling. Always used charts and was skeptical about digital versions. At least until I purchased our first Chartplotter two years ago. Now I must admit that I pay little attention to the paper ones. I have my laptop and my Garmin up and running at all times. So I have redundancy. I also carry the chart books. These are good reference when you want to check out an area or some of the notes without disturbing your plotters.
Having said that, I believe that one should at least carry a chart book, with water proof charts for the areas that you plan to operate. Worst case, you have to abandon ship and this will be the only thing you have in your tender or if you end up on shore. Plus the books are very easy to grab as you go out the door.

In regards to the paper charts for the Inside Passage - be advised that the Canadian Coast Guard effectively requires paper charts for the areas in BC Inside Passage. The real enforcement of this is if you have a boat damaging event - in that case they will demand to see the charts for the area you were cruising in. We cruised there for the last 2 years without event but were careful to invest in all the paper charts.

Having said that, we have returned to warmer climate - Mexico. We have 2 year old paper charts from Neah Bay WA to Wrangell AK (including Misty Fiords and Princess Louisa Inlet). They are in great shape and available if anyone is interested?

Thanks for the time!

Hello Larry,

Private message sent regarding paper charts.

Keith, is it worth sharing with the rest of us?

I've often wondered about CA's rule about mandatory paper charts in light of NOAA no longer printing paper charts. I wonder if CA will follow suit.

GFC, I did not want to hijack a thread so I sent a PM to LarryMac asking about purchasing the charts.