Anchor-rope -with chain

Anyone have any real life experience with the Spade Anchor?

The way it's always been discussed/taught around me....you can have "rope" on the boat.... once it's assigned a "task" is then called a line.

No chain at all for me...in the final hour, it's the anchor that does the holding.
One More Time Around: Anchors and Such

Look it up Marin.

It's in Chapman's.

If you can find your copy.


You said you have one.

Moonfish, I think Keith has one. One of the best anchors in the world,

jeffnick, YES.....VERY YES. Spend your weight on the anchor.

psneeld, Yes I think that's exactly it. Is your reference Chapman's?

jeffnick said:

No chain at all for me...in the final hour, it's the anchor that does the holding.
One More Time Around: Anchors and Such

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It's the anchor that does the holding but it's the chain that helps it hold better.

manyboats said:

Look it up Marin.

It's in Chapman's.

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Eric--- You know that I think Chapman's is an old, outdated book that doesn't take what's happened in the last 100 years into account or even acknowledge that's it happened all, right? Chapman's is the Ron Paul of marine references. He was right once, once being the operative word.



Seriously, here are some of the index entries in Chapmans for "Rope." Note: These are under "Rope," not "Line."

Blocks and Tackle, braided line, care of, color coding, cutters, knots, bends, and hitches, lay of the rope, marlinspike tools, matching rope sizes and blocks, purchasing, strength and sizes, types, whipping.

There is a whole section on "Use and Care of Rope."

Based on reading through some sections just now I think Psneeld is, as usual, 100% correct. The product itself is called "rope" whether it's on a boat or off. When rope is assigned a purpose--- topping lift, outhaul, mooring, etc.--- the length of rope doing that task is called a line. Chapmans's uses both terms within a single paragraph. As in: "All lines should be thoroughly checked at regular intervals. Frayed strands, powdered fibers inside the rope and stiffness are signs of serious deterioration." (page 290)

Marin said:

It's the anchor that does the holding but it's the chain that helps it hold better.

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And realy helps to keep said anchor attached to the boat when said anchor is into rock, coral, or rode is laying on old cable etc.

manyboats said:

Look it up Marin.

It's in Chapman's.

If you can find your copy.


You said you have one.

Moonfish, I think Keith has one. One of the best anchors in the world,

jeffnick, YES.....VERY YES. Spend your weight on the anchor.

psneeld, Yes I think that's exactly it. Is your reference Chapman's?

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You know..at some point..some of us have as much experience as anyone who has ever contributed to Chapman's...not as much as the book has collected through the years though...so I still think it's a great book for beginners and a reminder to old timers that there's always too many different aspects of boating to be an expert on all...but having a working knowledge of all those areas comes from living, breathing and doing what Chapman's is about... I'm still working at it.

jeffnick said:

No chain at all for me...in the final hour, it's the anchor that does the holding.
One More Time Around: Anchors and Such

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You are correct a small percentage of the time.

Like anything in life...you do have to know what you are doing no matter what system you use.

Me..99% of the time I'm anchoring where the winds are light enough that I'm swinging on the chain in a very tight circle.but there's enough rode and snubber to hold if a thunderstom pops up when I'm away ad CAN'T get back for some reason. But 99% of the time I'm pretty much right where I started.

Obviously with a decent anchor and knowing how to SET it properly doen't leave any doubts. And for that 1% of thetime that I coudn't get back and she's on her own...line may chafe through even with decent chafe guards (one in a thousand they slip) but that's a bigger chance than chain impartin g loads great enough to rip the front off my boat...plus with all chain...all I ever do is push a button and having used all kinds of windlasses, capstans, etc..etc...you'll NEVER sell me that a line rode is easier as long as the windlass works...and I'm a single engine guy who has studied failure rates of boating equioment..good luck...

If your anchor is fouled, what now?

If your anchor is fouled and you can't retrieve it. How many of your are prepared to cut the chain or rope rode. Or for that matter carry anchor floats to mark your anchor rode if you need to abandon it. A few years ago Attitude 38 had a story of a Sailboat sinking after the chain rode had sawed through the pulpit and hull during a storm somewhere on the west coast of Baha. The bow roller broke first and the chain sawed through the bow sinking the boat. The captain was unable to cut the chain and leave a rough anchorage, who after being trapped on board for several days ended up being saved by Mexican fishermen risked their lives to save the couple.
The story stuck with me and when setting up my 4788 Bayliner, I went with 60# Bruce and 60' of 5/16 chain and 300' 3/4" of nylon rode. Thought being that I could quickly cut the nylon and get out of Dodge if necessary. The Bayliner is fairly light at 26,000lb. I liked the ability to feel the anchor hooking up with the nylon line but never anchored with less than 5-1 scope. My Hatteras 48lrc is at least 66,000lb and came with a 80# Bruce and 375' of 3/8 chain. I find it harder to feel the chain hook up, maybe due to the weight of the chain, but it certainly lacks the feel of the nylon rode. I also find the chain tends to track differently than rope rode when watching my course track on my chart plotter when anchored . The nylon tend to be a more repeatable track. Maybe due to the weight of the chain and the wind strength the track seems to be less consistent with the chain. I still tend to use at least 5-1 scope with the chain" old habits are hard to break" but I like to sleep at night. I carry a small grinder with a cutoff wheel and of course several hack saws for a variety of emergencies. What are your thoughts.

Scary,
I also like to "feel" the anchor move across the bottom. One can tell a lot about the bottom by holding the "line" just aft of the bow roller. Of as much importance or more is the tension that one cal feel directly in the line. In time one tell a lot from the differences between what you're dealing w at the moment and what you recall from the past.
BUT in spite of all the stuff I say against all chain it could come to that for me in the future as connivence gets more and more attractive all the time. Then of course I'll be limited to handy bow roller anchors like the Claw and I'll have some extra weight on the bow but the older I get the better it looks. Then it will be a choice between using a splice or all chain.

What always surprises me is the number of boaters I meet or read who don't attach a length of line to the end of their all-chain rode with the other end attached to a hook or eyebolt in the chain locker. The line should be stout enough to hold up under the shock of the chain accidentally running out and hitting the end of it, and long enough so that the line appears on deck when the chain is let all the way out.

If you have to abandon the anchor and chain you don't need to cut anything other than the line. I have a rope cutting blade on the Leatherman I carry at all times on my belt so if we had to cut and run it would be a matter of a few seconds to let the chain go. The only question is if I would have the presence of mind to attach a fender on a line to the end of the chain so we could come back and retrieve it later.

I came very close to cutting the chain loose during the incident that caused us to finally give up on our Bruce and relegate it to being a door stop in the garage. The boat's original windlass was very slow and we did not want to overrun the chain going forward off the lee shore we were being blown onto. So my wife could only go forward in small bursts and then the wind and waves would push us back again.

I had just reached the decision to let the chain run out and cut the line that secures it to the eyebolt in the anchor locker when the anchor came out of the water. I signaled my wife at the helm to go ahead and we moved out into deeper water.

If one is caught in a situation where the anchor has to be cut free it's probably a fairly high-pressure/no time situation and the notion of running around trying to find that big pair of bolt cutters you stashed somewhere or get out some sort of power cutter is ridiculous. I can get rid of the whole works with two seconds work with a Leatherman.

We also now have a much faster windlass.

psneeld said:

Y

Obviously with a decent anchor and knowing how to SET it properly doen't leave any doubts.

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Obviously...

but ok, other than letting the anchor and the proper ratio of rode down, how does one SET the anchor properly?

Everyone has their favorite way. This is ours:

1. Arrive over the spot we want the anchor to land on.
2. Let the wind or current start moving us back or if there's not enough of either one start the boat drifting back with a quick shot of idle reverse.
3. With the boat moving slowly backwards we deploy the anchor and let out the amount of rode (all-chain) we want, usually 5:1 to 7:1 scope. Since the boat is drifting backwards the chain won't simply pile up on top of the anchor but will be laid out along the bottom along our rearward path.
4. Whoever's at the bow watches the rode to see when the boat "hits" the end of it. With all-chain it won't take out all the slack but the chain angle will come up quite a bit. Quite often when our anchor sets it will stop the boat not with a jerk but short enough to yaw the boat around a bit. In any event it's pretty obvious when the anchor has stopped your rearward drift. That doesn't mean it's set, just that it's got enough drag or bite to stop your drift.
5. The person at the helm then puts the engines in reverse idle and we back down on the anchor.
6. The person on the bow (or both of us) watches the relative motion of near and more distant objects on shore--- around here it's usually trees--- to determine our rearward movement. When the relative motion ceases we know the anchor has dug in and is holding the boat.
7. Depending on the nature of the anchorage we may call it good at that point and shut down. Or we may go to neutral, let the catenary in the chain pull us back toward the anchor and then put the boat in idle reverse again and back down on the anchor a second time watching the shoreline to make sure we stop moving backwards again.
8. We shut down, set up our snubber, and lastly take a couple of sightings on different objects on shore so we can determine that we are staying put as the boat moves around the anchor with the winds and currents.

I should add that we have an extra step in that after the anchor has initially stopped the boat's rearward drift we connect our "setting line", which is a fairly short, stout three-strand line with a chain-hook on one end. We lean over and fasten the hook to the chain just below the pulpit and bring the line back through a bow hawse to one of our heavily backed deck cleats. We then slack off on the windlass so the setting line is holdlng the weight of the chain, not the pulpit and windlass itself. We then set the anchor against this line and cleat. So no strain is being put on the pulpit or, more importantly, the gears of the windlass.

If we have to break out the anchor with the boat, not uncommon with the Rocna which digs in quite deep most of the time, after taking up all the slack so the boat is directly over the anchor we install our setting line as before and slack off with the windlass and then break the anchor out against the line and cleat, never the pulpit and windlass.

Marin said:

Everyone has their favorite way. This is ours:


I should add that we have an extra step in that after the anchor has initially stopped the boat's rearward drift we connect our "setting line", which is a fairly short, stout three-strand line with a chain-hook on one end. We lean over and fasten the hook to the chain just below the pulpit and bring the line back through a bow hawse to one of our heavily backed deck cleats. We then slack off on the windlass so the setting line is holdlng the weight of the chain, not the pulpit and windlass itself. We then set the anchor against this line and cleat. So no strain is being put on the pulpit or, more importantly, the gears of the windlass.

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isnt that your snubber line?

"set an anchor properly"

HMMMMMMM ?

Visions of captains plowing the bottom with said anchors in reverse in hope of setting the anchor properly.

All grand in theory till the tide or wind , current changes direction. Then we see just how well the anchor realy sets.

Per said:

isnt that your snubber line?

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No. The snubber lines are 1/2" nylon and are intended to provide shock absorbing. We set the anchor or break it out with a much shorter, heavier line. It's a 3/4" or so three strand dacron (I think) line. We want this line to be very strong with little or no stretch to it.

Two entirely different purposes, two entirely different lines.

The "propper" way to set an anchor is to deploy it in a manner that maximizes the possibilities of the anchor setting......or digging in. I read in an anchor test that what gives an anchor the best chance of setting is to back down on it very slowly. I've seen sailboats enter an anchorage at 3 or 4 knots and when they think the time is right they drop the whole rode w a big splash. You can tell when the anchor sets as the boat stops abruptly.

I personally like to back down (after the anchor reaches the bottom) about 1/2 as fast as a slow walk. I like to hold my hand on the anchor line pulling it up about 4". When the anchor sets I can only pull it up about 3/4". At that point the anchor is set but probably not buried unless it's mud.

With one anchor I deployed it very carefully once the anchor found bottom so as to lay the chain down slow enough to prevent the anchor laying on it's side and to insure that the chain would'nt be a mess on top of the anchor preventing it from setting. That was w my older XYZ and now I'm going to try to insure that it lays on it's side and see if it sets any better.

When I was a very young man I thought setting anchors was stupid unnecessary stuff that old people and safety Sam did. I reasoned that if the wind came up the anchor would dig it and do it's job.

Here is a pic of the old XYZ.

28' boat in the PNW -- 100' chain, 200' rope. Anchor in 25' of water with 25' vertical, 50' horizontal on the bottom. Wind comes up, 25' on the bottom, 50' at a varying angle, but have never hit a straight pull to the anchor. If we did we would have put out more chain for the bottom, more rope for the scope.
60' of water -- 100' of chain on the bottom, 200' of rope, no worries.
40' boat in the PNW -- 220' all chain, wouldn't think of doing anything else.

manyboats said:

I've seen sailboats enter an anchorage at 3 or 4 knots and when they think the time is right they drop the whole rode w a big splash. You can tell when the anchor sets as the boat stops abruptly.

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From a dim past of yachts (sailboats), that was the accepted way of anchoring without starting the engine ("the iron topsail"),if you had one. From memory you sailed downwind, dropped the anchor etc, waiting until it grabbed with an almighty jerk and the bow spun up into the wind.Now most yachts drop anchor "like a powerboat", though that itself allows for a range of methods. BruceK

Old boat, new to us with a windlass that looks to me to be only able to handle rope-no chain. There is no chain on the anchor. Rope comes in to a pulley that has a deep groove built into it and the rope takes a path such that it is wedged into the pully as it transverses the pulley. It appears that chain wouldn't work. Did they make such a windlass back in the early 80's? 1983 Californian. Guess could put some chain on it and just hand haul it to the deck for the last 5 feet or so. Any thoughts? Most of the time the water depth will be 20 feet or less, but sometimes we go out to bottom fish in the gulf and the depth is 200 feet. We have had good luck with previous boats of getting enough anchor affect to hold us in positon for fishing. Most of the time sea state is pretty reasonable, else we wouldn't be out there.

"Guess could put some chain on it and just hand haul it to the deck for the last 5 feet or so."

Great!! no chain to gypsy matching required.

Perhaps a chance to use bigger chain with the same strength as the nylon.

3/8 or 7/16 or better ,1/2inch could help the setting time .

FF

Marin said:

What always surprises me is the number of boaters I meet or read who don't attach a length of line to the end of their all-chain rode with the other end attached to a hook or eyebolt in the chain locker. The line should be stout enough to hold up under the shock of the chain accidentally running out and hitting the end of it, and long enough so that the line appears on deck when the chain is let all the way out.......If you have to abandon the anchor and chain you don't need to cut anything other than the line...... The only question is if I would have the presence of mind to attach a fender on a line to the end of the chain so we could come back and retrieve it later.

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The above sound idea was precisely why I persevered in reversing my chain recently, even though I then had to sacrifice several metres of chain which was rusted by sitting in salt water in the bottom of the locker for years, in order to enjoy the nice newer-looking (galvanised) chain above it, and while doing so, I was able to set it up with this length of rope as Marin describes. It had always worried me I had the chain fixed in the locker. This new arrangement now not only serves as a quick release in an emergency, being easier to cut than chain, (something I can definitely confirm is not easy, after abandoning a new hacksaw and going over to an angle grinder, as I had to cut the swivel off to achieve the above. It is also more likely to come handy if rapidly running out more chain rode for some pressing reason, and if the end of the rode was reached unexpectedly the gypsy would disengage from the rope rode and just spin, instead of possibly tearing the chain out from its fix point. And yes, I now have a float ready to attach, too.

Manyboats wrote...
"I've seen sailboats enter an anchorage at 3 or 4 knots and when they think the time is right they drop the whole rode w a big splash. You can tell when the anchor sets as the boat stops abruptly."

I used to often do this in my yachting days, and still find it a useful way to anchor quickly if one is entering an anchorage from up-wind, as one can slow to a crawl, do a wee yaw to one side or the other so the chain avoids the hull, drop the anchor right where you want it in relation to other boats, flick it into neutral, then just drift down on the spot where you want to end up, letting the rode out as you go until enough is out, then letting the setting anchor pull the boat gently round into the wind and you are set. It's called the yachtsman's set I think. Works a treat...looks well...nonchalant, as the French would say...however not abrupt if going suitably slowly, Eric.

Peter...............................
You're "yachting days??? What on earth do you think your doing now? Why do sailboaters seem to think sailboats are yachts and the rest of us are wannabes?
Sailboats are more yachtlike in that they can't be used in any other useful way but it seems sailboaters are trying to establish a pecking order and I do'nt like the order much. I'm of a mind that a far better method of powering boats has been developed and sails should be relegated to the has been antique world. I can see that small open sailboats can be fun and traveling the ocean may still be better done in a sailboat but the rest????

You may be preaching to the choir

manyboats said:

Peter...............................
You're "yachting days??? What on earth do you think your doing now? Why do sailboaters seem to think sailboats are yachts and the rest of us are wannabes?
Sailboats are more yachtlike in that they can't be used in any other useful way but it seems sailboaters are trying to establish a pecking order and I do'nt like the order much. I'm of a mind that a far better method of powering boats has been developed and sails should be relegated to the has been antique world. I can see that small open sailboats can be fun and traveling the ocean may still be better done in a sailboat but the rest????

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Did you really want to start a rant? Please don't get me started, too late, Damn it. Just why oh why are they so friggin arrogant. Oh the stories I can tell. This needs a new post. Oh and attaching a line to the bitter end of your all chain anchor rode, well that's just too obvious, who's going to do something that smart. I thonk I better check and see if my chains bitter end is even attached the eye in the chain locker. Thanks.

manyboats said:

Peter...............................
You're "yachting days??? What on earth do you think your doing now? Why do sailboaters seem to think sailboats are yachts and the rest of us are wannabes?

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I can't speak for Australia but I've been to parts of the world where the term "yachting" specifically refers to sailing. In sailboats. Saying, "I'm going yachting next weekend" means that you're going sailing, usually in a fair-size sailboat. Running around in a sailing dinghy is not considered "yachting." But going out on a 40-foot sloop is.

Good friends of ours in England were for years co-owners of the 12 metre America's Cup challenger Sceptre. Sceptre had been "converted" for charter work. Converted in that it had more comfortable sleeping arrangements and a galley. Other than that it was still in its full racing configuration, and customers often chartered it for that purpose. It operated mostly around Ireland, northern England, and Scotland. And our friends always referred to their activities with the boat as "yachting." Not in a hoity-toity way with champagne glasses and hors d'oeuvres on the aft deck, but in a "we're going to do some serious sailing" sort of way.

So tems that mean one thing here can mean something entirely different someplace else.

BruceK said:

From a dim past of yachts (sailboats), that was the accepted way of anchoring without starting the engine ("the iron topsail"),if you had one. From memory you sailed downwind, dropped the anchor etc, waiting until it grabbed with an almighty jerk and the bow spun up into the wind.Now most yachts drop anchor "like a powerboat", though that itself allows for a range of methods. BruceK

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The Maine cruise schooners (we call them "Cattleboats") drop the way you describe. They all carry the old kedge style anchor. Quite a nice cocktail time show watching and hearing a 100 footer ghost into the harbor, let go anchor and rattling chain, round up hard as it sets and drop the peaks on the gaffs.

Marin said:

I can't speak for Australia but I've been to parts of the world where the term "yachting" specifically refers to sailing. In sailboats. Saying, "I'm going yachting next weekend" means that you're going sailing, usually in a fair-size sailboat.

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Australia calls "yachts" what USA calls "sailboats". Boats propelled only by power are called "cruiser" or "powerboat" or sometimes at the high end, or by brokers, "motor yachts". Except for the "40ft speedboats" (cruisers half planing) passing/overtaking within about 20ft,which are called something else entirely. BruceK

Scary wrote:
"Did you really want to start a rant?". No I did'nt and I almost did'nt post it. And I'm glad ...so far it's turned out the way it has.

Dwhatty,
I see those big Kedges and the interesting way they carry them on the bow. I'll bet if I carried a 65 or 75lb Kedge on Willy I'd never need to worry about anchoring again. And my total rode weight would be less than all chain. Think of the conversation piece it would be. When I got the anchor clear of the water I'd need a hook like thing to lift the fluke end of the thing up over the rail. I know where just about any size Kedge anchor can be purchased too. Galvanized. Thanks for the idea.........maybe.

Why do sailboaters seem to think sailboats are yachts and the rest of us are wannabes?

Not wannabees , MARINE MOTORISTS !