My synthetic vs dino oil experience, WOW!

I just changed the oil in my 4000 hour Ford/Lehman 120s. Put the good old standby Rotella SAE30 in one and then put Walmart brands 5W30 full synthetic in the other. Cost was the same. The synthetic engine is much, much quieter and smother running. I mean there is no comparison.

Putting a peeled banana in the rocker box will accomplish the same thing...... for awhile.

'putting a banana in the rocker box'
what kind of comment is that ?

expat said:

'putting a banana in the rocker box'
what kind of comment is that ?

Click to expand...

Old used car dealer trick for quieting down a noisy engine. Apparently the same result as putting synthetic oil in an old noisy engine.

I think the banana was sound insulation.

When I was 19 I worked on a used car lot and we put potatoes in the breather tube to help contain the smoke. We had bald tires "regrooved " buy a guy that had a van w a hot knife and a tire rotator.

I've read that people have run cars w no oil .....just banana's.

manyboats said:

I think the banana was sound insulation.

Click to expand...

They quieted down noisy valve trains and, like the old STP oil additive, upped the compression of leaky cylinders for a very short time.

I've heard there is no advantage to using synthetic oil on the higher HP per liter engines because the oil needs to be changed at spec intervals to remove contaminants. If synthetic oil is not changed at the spec interval, the contaminants remain in the engine defeating the purpose of changing the oil which is mostly to remove the contaminants.

"higher HP per liter engines" how does this apply to a FL120? When did I say anything about the nearly double the hours change intervals? The oil is simply quieter and smoother.

timjet said:

I've heard there is no advantage to using synthetic oil on the higher HP per liter engines because the oil needs to be changed at spec intervals to remove contaminants. If synthetic oil is not changed at the spec interval, the contaminants remain in the engine defeating the purpose of changing the oil which is mostly to remove the contaminants.

Click to expand...

I have heard that it applies to ALL diesels (gas for that matter too)...especially if yours is a diesel that turns your oil black quickly. Think about it..some combustion products must be getting in there....at some point the additives to keep the oil chemistry get overwhelmed and are no longer able to keep your oil in spec.

Synthetic is great for gear cases (fewer contaminants/sometimes extreme pressures/temps) or engines EXPECTING to hit severe service situations such as extreme environmental or operating temps.

I think it's interesting that you noticed so much difference. What would be very interesting to me would be to see an oil sample report comparison after 100 or 200 hours or whatever your "normal" oil change interval is. Would also be interesting to see what if there is any difference in oil consumption and or leak rate change engine to engine.

BTW I am currently using 5-30 synthetic in my BW 71 series Velvet Drive.

That's what really struck me. I'll monitor and post the results. As to the VD I thought they all required ATF?

Daddyo said:

That's what really struck me. I'll monitor and post the results. As to the VD I thought they all required ATF?

Click to expand...

My owners manual says 30wt "preferred" for engine speeds under 3000rpm...the ATFs are "recommended.

You tell me what they mean????... but I doubt under normal service either one is better or worse (under 3000 rpm)

Daddyo,
I do'nt think you should notice a difference after the engines warm up but when they are cold (especially in neutral gear) the dino oil engine will be under a greater load and sound/feel different. Synthetic oil has the properties of multi-vis dino oil even without any viscosity improvers so there is'nt any 30W syn oil in existence to use for a comparison. Do any modern diesel engines use 5W30 oil? 5W30 may be too low of a viscosity oil for your application.

I have had a conversation with Bob Smith on using synthetic oils in the Ford Lehman. His comments were something to the facts that these engines receive no benefits from the synthetics and in fact the straight 30 weight oils do a much better job of lubricating the engines internal parts and helps to prevent rust when the engine is not used for long periods. The 30 weight has all of the lubricating specifications for the Lehman engine. You can put vegetable oil in the crankcase if you like, but most of us use the recommended oil and these engines will run for 8 to 10 thousand hours if properly cared for. I would recommend that anyone considering a switch give Bob or Brian a call at American Diesel and have that discussion, then you can make an informed decision. Chuck

I'm curious about how the difference in oil can make an engine run more smoothly? All it does is lube metal-to-metal contact. Quieter, yes, I get that, but smoother? Not sure how, mechanically, that would work. Change the crank balance? create more efficient fuel burn? Prevent pre-ignition? I've never had an internal combustion engine that ran poorly be corrected by an oil change.

Not trying to give you grief, Mark. Just trying to see if I understand it correctly.

Tom-

Gonzo,
Diesel engines combustion is not very complete at slow speeds when cold so at an idle w less load on the engine it should be smoother.

Chuck,
Bob Smith is just a mechanic and mechanics are for bending wrenches and fixing things......not engineering or engine specification. The manual is a better bet than a mechanic. Mechanics are full of bias and prejudice.
But Smith is right (in my opinion) that there is no advantage to running syn oil in the old Ford engines. But I do'nt think he's right in saying dino oils do a better job of lubricating an engine than syn oil. I know for a fact that syn oil does a better job when things get really hot but in our engines they do'nt get really hot in our engines. You do'nt need Bob Smith to decide what oil to run in your engine. The manual will do better. However when the manuals for the Lehman's were written there was'nt any syn oil so it can be said that syn oil is better and you or I or Bob Smith can't say it's wrong and be sure. And that seems to be the problem .....we always dream of something better. If they were still making the Ford engines we would know...but they aren't. The best we could do is to find an engine currently made that is most comparable to the old Fords. My Mitsu is (as far as I can see) is no different in basic configuration than the Lehman's and should do (as an example) but I'm not an engineer. And then we could see what oil is recommended for them and assume it would transfer/apply to the old Fords. But it would just be a good guess. But w no real advantage .....why use the stuff? Even Marin who loves new stuff is using straight 30W. I personally mix 30W and 40W together.

I got a copy of a more recent Lehman manual and it said running a multi weight when experiencing cooler temps was preferred. Now I'm not sure that's for a marinized version but so close...I doubt the engines gonna know the diff with today's multis...

And for those wondering..for whatever reason..the lightweight multi synthetics do seem to smooth out and quiet an engine...at least that seems to be the consensus on the truck diesel forums (lot's more members reporting those results)

Bob Smith is a bit more than just a mechanic. He is one of the original US engineers for the Ford Lehman and also the primary engineer responsible for marinizing the tractor engines. So I would tend to follow his direction when it come to my engine over anything I might see on a boating website. Chuck

Daddyo said:

That's what really struck me. I'll monitor and post the results. As to the VD I thought they all required ATF?

Click to expand...

It depends on which version of the operator's manual you have. Our 1973 VD manual says ATF only. But later manuals say ATF or gear oil of the correct viscosity. I know people who run the same Delo 400 30wt in their VDs as well as their FL120s. We have chosen to stay with ATF on the recommendation of our diesel shop and friends in the marine propulsion industry who we asked for advice on engine and transmission operation and maintenance when we bought the boat thirteen years ago.

The same is true, by the way, for the FL120 itself. Our operating manual calls for single weight oil exclusively. Later FL120 manuals include multi-viscocity oil in the table. We have elected to stay with the single weight oil, again on the initial advice we were given by the pros we talked to when we got the boat.

manyboats said:

Bob Smith is just a mechanic and mechanics are for bending wrenches and fixing things......not engineering or engine specification.

Click to expand...

Not really. I've talked to Bob over the years about various things to do with the FL120. When he worked for Lehman in New Jersey he designed from a clean piece of paper some of the components of the marinization kit that created a Ford Lehman 120 out of a Ford of England Dorset diesel. I don't know his background in terms of engineering and whatnot, but he was designing and overseeing the manufacturing of Lehman components, not just bolting them on.

He does hold some views that are typical for his age and mechanical "beliefs" that I don't agree with, the main one being his continued advocacy of using Marvel Mystery Oil in the fuel you send to an FL120. Tests within the past few years have shown that MMO actually reduces the lubricity of diesel fuel, not improves it. So I think he's incorrect in this respect.

But his involvement with the Lehman engines is far more than just as a mechanic.

I run 15-40 Rotella in my Lehman 120. The previous owner ran that for many years, and I am a believer of sticking with the same brand. I discussed that with Bob Smith and although he started to try to convince me to change to single weight, he agreed that staying consistent with what was being used was a good idea.
My personal theory for using synthetic in the velvet drive is based on my engineering experience working with bearing engineers for so many years. They did not like it when they had an application with tranny fluid because it is not provide good lubrication and the bearings have a shorter life generally.
Tranny fluid has better anti foaming properties and that is why they use it , however if under 3000 rpm regular motor oil won't foam so its acceptable and gives better lubrication to the bearings. I believe that synthetic provides even better lubrication and will stay cooler, both of which are good things in a tranny. I discussed this with the BorgWarner techs in Ma, and they agreed. It has only been 4 seasons, but so far so good.
Note I am not trying to convince anyone to do this, I am just stating my reasoning.

In closing none of know how long a Ford Lehman would last on sythetic oil. It may double or triple the 10,000 hours that is commonly mentioned, and then again it may shorten it to 1000 hours. We can only surmise at least until we get some data points from Daddyo

Hate to throw a kink in this discussion but you can get straight 30 weight in synthetic. Amsoil has it. It just wasn't available to me when I made this choice. As to the 5w-30 I used, here is the description from the Amsoil site
"Engineered for pre-2007 diesel engines in on-road applications as well as all model year diesel engines in off-road applications."

Daddyo said:

"Engineered for pre-2007 diesel engines in on-road applications as well as all model year diesel engines in off-road applications."

Click to expand...

So, "off-road" includes "on-water"?

Marin says:
"But his involvement with the Lehman engines is far more than just as a mechanic." Yea.....he's a small business man. I know you guys like uncle Bob but I think his opinions are too close to opinions. I'd go w the manual. And multi-weight oil is like "premium" gasoline. It's only needed if it's needed. Otherwise you're just buying hype and wasting your money.

Mark...No but ""Engineered for pre-2007 diesel engines in on-road applications as well as all model year diesel engines in off-road applications." would be 98% of a green flag to me but then I do'nt see any reason to use it. Being an experimenter I'd be inclined to try it re what psneeld said. Those boatDiesel guys are onto that diesel stuff but I'll bet there's still some old wife's tales and off the mark opinions. Very high level of experience and knowledge though. Like Bob Smith........opinions but good opinions.... for serious considerations but not the last word. Even what engineers say is questionable ...but far less so.

Multi-vis fine. Syn oil fine ...if it's for a diesel engine but again there's no downside for using 30W dino. And one can use the money saved to do more frequent oil changes and that definitely is better for the engine.

Psneeld, .....Some time back it was said that multi-vis oils were fine when new but lost some or most of their multi-vis performance so 15W40 would soon become 20W oil or 15W. I think the base oil for say 5W30 oil is 5W oil.
Any of the this correct?

manyboats said:

Marin says:
"But his involvement with the Lehman engines is far more than just as a mechanic." Yea.....he's a small business man. I know you guys like uncle Bob but I think his opinions are too close to opinions. I'd go w the manual. And multi-weight oil is like "premium" gasoline. It's only needed if it's needed. Otherwise you're just buying hype and wasting your money.
But when it's needed and in some applications...like running my truck in the winter...it's needed regularly... Plus the guy was a VP with Ford for the Lehman division...probably reviewed the manuals more than once or twice....guess that doesn't account for much.

Mark...No but ""Engineered for pre-2007 diesel engines in on-road applications as well as all model year diesel engines in off-road applications." would be 98% of a green flag to me but then I do'nt see any reason to use it. Being an experimenter I'd be inclined to try it re what psneeld said. Those boatDiesel guys are onto that diesel stuff but I'll bet there's still some old wife's tales and off the mark opinions. Very high level of experience and knowledge though. Like Bob Smith........opinions but good opinions.... for serious considerations but not the last word. Even what engineers say is questionable ...but far less so.

Multi-vis fine. Syn oil fine ...if it's for a diesel engine but again there's no downside for using 30W dino. And one can use the money saved to do more frequent oil changes and that definitely is better for the engine. More frequently to a point...then it's a waste of money like you mentioned in para 1

Psneeld, .....Some time back it was said that multi-vis oils were fine when new but lost some or most of their multi-vis performance so 15W40 would soon become 20W oil or 15W. I think the base oil for say 5W30 oil is 5W oil. I'm sure they lose some of their properties over time/usage...but the multis are being run in tractor trailers for many more miles than our 200 hour intervals because they go with oil analysis..so the multi rating isn't given up too easily...
Any of the this correct?

Click to expand...

Like you say we all have "opinions" .....as none of us are publishing findings from our testing lab or are just repeating what we heard and throwing in a little personal experience along the way...

Daddyo stated a factual observation. The synthetic (who makes it for WM?) was the same price as Rotella. So good, keep using it Daddyo and let us know your findings when comparing this port to starboard oil test.

I'm lost as to the responses to the non question. Excepting "go by the book" and Marin's banana peel analogy - those two I grasp.

How about synthetic oil used in conjunction with bypass oil filtering? The oil stays cleaner and you may get enough use out of it to justify it's higher expense. Change it when the oil analysis says so.

alormaria said:

How about synthetic oil used in conjunction with bypass oil filtering? The oil stays cleaner and you may get enough use out of it to justify it's higher expense. Change it when the oil analysis says so.

Click to expand...

That is the setup we have, put in by the previous owner. He says its good for 500 - 600 hours before changing, but we won't go anywhere near that. (He was an Amsoil rep, so you would think he'd recommend changes every 10 hours!)

psneeld,
1. In a truck or car Multi-vis is a worthwhile feature and I use 10W30 in my trucks and cars in the winter. In the summer I use 20W50 Castrol GTX.
2. More frequently is better.....when it becomes a waste of time I do'nt know.
3. Yes. And if I had a diesel truck I'd run 15W40 just like everyone else. Road vehicles are often called on to work fairly hard before being warmed up. We warm up our boat engines as slowly as we wish and because of that we do'nt need multi-vis oil.
4. Opinions yes. If only scientific studies were made here there would'nt be any Trawler Forum.

Conrad, alormaria,
Well, that's what we had before full flow oil filters. As far as I know by pass filtering is great no mater what kind of oil one uses. I wonder how much carbon the by pass filters got/get compared to the full flow spin-ons? Since carbon is the abrasive that wears out engines. I also wonder how much of the capacity of full flow filters is used between oil/filter changes? How much muck will they hold and how much do they filter out?

alormaria said:

How about synthetic oil used in conjunction with bypass oil filtering? The oil stays cleaner and you may get enough use out of it to justify it's higher expense. Change it when the oil analysis says so.

Click to expand...

I wish these threads were read in their entirety. The cost is virtually identical even before figuring a longer duty cycle for the syn. 4 quarts dino $14 vs 5 quarts syn $18. As I had stated in a previous thread when I asked Bob Smith last fall he said he saw no problem with using a syn just didn't see an advantage if it was more expensive (it's not).