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My Perkins Sabre manual says to turn the engines over without starting to get lube oil pressure up if engines have sat over one month. Seldom do mine sit that long, if ever. I'd never do it anyway because I don't want to risk water into the engine due to water lift mufflers. Once over 12 liters or so, a prelub setup is more common if not mandatory since the engine dimensions are too big to get lube oil to the top end quickly following a start.

I with Marin on this one. Time will kill my 6 liter engines before any other cause, barring stupid neglect of course.
 
Deere only says my engine should be run at least every two weeks.
 
FWIW Art, and Marin, I often wondered about the wisdom of what Art is suggesting, and in doing so I have observed just how long it takes for oil pressure to come up to anything like normal pressure - the sort of level one would need to do what Art is saying, and frankly I doubt it ever would just cranking with the starter. I know for a fact it will not even register on the oil pressure gauge just cranking on my FL120, because for a while I thought I was doing it a favour doing that (cranking it without starting for a minute or so to spread oil round the engine), instead of just running it in the slip occasionally if I could not go out. The consensus was it was not really effective, generally, and running the engine up to temp gave a better chance to pick leaks etc. It certainly never registered on the oil gauge, so I can't really see any it would save any cold start up wear. Even on a gas engine I doubt it really helps Art. So, I agree with Marin there.
I'd back Bi-Tron, or Castrol Magnatec to be a better protection, because it is there already, coating the metal from the last time the engine was run. So do research the Bi-Tron thing. Yes it is in the US - it was developed and started there. Have a look at this site below, but no, I am no longer selling it, because my network evaporated, but I was sure impressed with it and see Magnatec as a near equivalent. It could well be a better way of protecting your vintage and veteran vehicle engines that cold cranking in my opionion.
Bi-Tron - 21st Century Technology
 
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I've cranked my winterized diesels for years. Last set of Cat 3208s with over 3500 hrs passed engine survey with flying clors...starters still cranking after14 years.

My Lehman 135 runs up to around 40 psi oil pressure in about 20 seconds or less.

I think I'm going to stop doing it as it's a PIA to worry about the waterlift mufflers (didn't have'm on the Cats) and I'll go along with the consensus that doing it is like trying to add a few months of life when even trying to get to your 100th birthday..:D

There's probably a better although more time consuming way to ensure a good winterization. Now that I only own a single on a fulltime liveaboard and no kids going to college...that preluber is sounding better. :thumb:
 
that preluber is sounding better. :thumb:

The $tore bought style will require a big fat power cable as cold oil is usually thick.

If you have time om your hands a surplus air craft accumulator and a electric valve can make a good working system for 1/20 the cost.

FF
 
FF said:
that preluber is sounding better. :thumb:

The $tore bought style will require a big fat power cable as cold oil is usually thick.

If you have time om your hands a surplus air craft accumulator and a electric valve can make a good working system for 1/20 the cost.

FF
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I think I may also go with a hydronic diesel heater so the warm engine shouldn't be a problem...also...my lack of use time is actually the middle of the NJ summer hopefully starting this year as I plan to head south each winter an the engine will get plenty of use.

Any ideas for an inexpensive hydronic heating system?
 
My Volvo owners manual makes no mention of any pre-lubing proceedure or need to run the engine at any particular interval.

Remember, in northern climates, boats are often stored on land for six months or more each year without running the engines.

Same thing for seasonal land based equipment.
 
rwidman said:
My Volvo owners manual makes no mention of any pre-lubing procedure or need to run the engine at any particular interval.

Remember, in northern climates, boats are often stored on land for six months or more each year without running the engines.

Same thing for seasonal land based equipment.
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+1

Our Volvo KAD44P has sat for 5-6 months every winter for 14 years. 4636 hours so far on Delo, and runs like a top.
 
Peter B said:
FWIW Art, and Marin, I often wondered about the wisdom of what Art is suggesting, and in doing so I have observed just how long it takes for oil pressure to come up to anything like normal pressure - the sort of level one would need to do what Art is saying, and frankly I doubt it ever would just cranking with the starter. I know for a fact it will not even register on the oil pressure gauge just cranking on my FL120, because for a while I thought I was doing it a favour doing that (cranking it without starting for a minute or so to spread oil round the engine), instead of just running it in the slip occasionally if I could not go out. The consensus was it was not really effective, generally, and running the engine up to temp gave a better chance to pick leaks etc. It certainly never registered on the oil gauge, so I can't really see any it would save any cold start up wear. Even on a gas engine I doubt it really helps Art. So, I agree with Marin there.
I'd back Bi-Tron, or Castrol Magnatec to be a better protection, because it is there already, coating the metal from the last time the engine was run. So do research the Bi-Tron thing. Yes it is in the US - it was developed and started there. Have a look at this site below, but no, I am no longer selling it, because my network evaporated, but I was sure impressed with it and see Magnatec as a near equivalent. It could well be a better way of protecting your vintage and veteran vehicle engines that cold cranking in my opionion.
Bi-Tron - 21st Century Technology
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Peter - I know not what your FL120 diesel engines would reach for oil pressure (except that you say it is negligible) during starter actuated oil pressure pre-lube. But, I do know that each of my classic gas engines' oil gauges (boat and car) do register good levels of oil pressure with the starter actuated pre-lubes. I am closely researching the Bi-Tron as well as Castrol Magnatec you mentioned. In however it is accomplished, I believe it is important to have a good barrier-lube-coating on bearings' surfaces prior to starting engines from cold (especially after weeks of non-use) and therein placing great torque pressures upon the bearing surfaces! Different strokes for different folks!! :thumb: :D
 
"Remember, in northern climates, boats are often stored on land for six months or more each year without running the engines.

Same thing for seasonal land based equipment."

Winterization , or as DD calls it "out of service for over 30 days" can be found in every engine maint manual.
And almost all will have a procedure to accomplish this with out harm.

Sit it on land and walk away can get expensive.

Look on Yachtworld at many boats with "New" engines , most only a few years old.

You don't think the owner wore them out do you?

Killed them dead , esp in FL , by just walking away.

FF

And almost all will have a procedure to accomplish this with out harm.
 
If the radial engine in a Beaver isn't going to be run for a few months we pickle it. This involves, among other things, putting a heavy oil-like fluid into the cylinders to coat the walls. A bit like fogging an outboard that's not going to be run for awhile. I imagine something similar could be, or is, done to a marine diesel to protect its innards if it's not going to be run for a season. I would think that would be preferable to cranking it over periodically in an attempt to get oil on tHe cylinder walls again.
 
Regarding my classic V8 gas engines to which I relate in his thread, that seldom rest for any longer than periods of 12 consecutive weeks and usually considerably shorter, I feel that the less than one minute it takes to actuate starter driven pre-lube oil pressure before ignition to start an engine is ample for insuring a barrier established on bearing surfaces and to prime piston oil rings. It appears from Fred’s and Marin’s post they too may feel it important to have engine internals pre-lubricated before restarting if engine is left dormant for very long. Each engine owner and user, be they a qualified mechanic or not, will tend as they feel is best suited to help insure trouble free and long engine life. In my opinion, irrespective of how it may be accomplished or what type engine it is, pre-lubrication of engine internals is an important factor for helping to insure stable operation and trouble free as possible engine-use duration. :thumb:
 
Art said:
Regarding my classic V8 gas engines to which I relate in his thread, that seldom rest for any longer than periods of 12 consecutive weeks and usually considerably shorter, I feel that the less than one minute it takes to actuate starter driven pre-lube oil pressure before ignition to start an engine is ample for insuring a barrier established on bearing surfaces and to prime piston oil rings. It appears from Fred’s and Marin’s post they too may feel it important to have engine internals pre-lubricated before restarting if engine is left dormant for very long. Each engine owner and user, be they a qualified mechanic or not, will tend as they feel is best suited to help insure trouble free and long engine life. In my opinion, irrespective of how it may be accomplished or what type engine it is, pre-lubrication of engine internals is an important factor for helping to insure stable operation and trouble free as possible engine-use duration. :thumb:
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Bingo! :D
 
Any ideas for an inexpensive hydronic heating system?

The equipment is already on board.

Use your marine hot water heater to heat the engine with the addition of a circ pump.

The best tho is a factory 120V block heater that bolts into the engine , and is plugged into shore power.

FF
 
FF said:
Any ideas for an inexpensive hydronic heating system?

The equipment is already on board.

Use your marine hot water heater to heat the engine with the addition of a circ pump.

The best tho is a factory 120V block heater that bolts into the engine , and is plugged into shore power.

FF
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Actually I was referring to a system to heat the boat with heating the engine as a side job.

I sure hope the OP (dhiggins ) got his answer about using Mobil 1 for his engine... :eek::eek::eek:
 
When I ran gassers that were laid up for winter, I always fogged them.

Yup ps, Mr Higgins must be chuckling
 
I'm with Marin. We pickled R2600 and R2800 engines if they were going to sit for more than 3 weeks -- these are 2050 hp and 2450 hp aircraft engines. We pre-lubed them before restarting by applying oil under pressure to the main oil galleries to ensure the bearings and the cams had an oil supply.
 
av8r said:
We pre-lubed them before restarting by applying oil under pressure to the main oil galleries to ensure the bearings and the cams had an oil supply.
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I couldn't agree more!

Unlike your big diesels I'm referring to classic gassers, and although Marin poo - poos my method and reasoning as irrelevant for pre-lubing my flat tappet engines, your statement closely syncs with my statement in post #72 on this thread; i.e. I am confident that pre-lube is of paramount importance for extending internal bearings and lobe parts' wellbeing in any combustion engine. Classic gassers are easy with which to perform pre-lube... I simply pre-lube them before start-up by getting oil pressure up for a few seconds 2 to 3 consecutive times from starter action ONLY... before the engine is allowed to start-up and place immediate torque stress upon the bearings and lobes, which from my pre-lube method already have their journals filled and a lube-barrior applied to surfaces. :thumb:

Simple is as simple does! I work under the premise of KISS! :whistling:
 
Pre-lubing is beneficial. Pressurizing the oil so it is moved to the moving surfaces WITHOUT turning the engine over is where the benefit comes from. While turning the engine over with the oil pressure at zero may eventually build oil pressure, you've been turning the engine over dry until the pressure builds up. Ergo, you aren't really accomplishing anything other that putting extra wear on the starter mechanism.

And given that most engines under normal use don't wear out or fail because they didn't have a real pre-lube system on them--- most of the engines we have in our boats, old or new, don't--- the whole subject is fairly moot.

If you were like the RNLI in the UK where your twin-diesel boats had to go to full power the moment they hit the end of the launch ramp, that would be a different matter entirely, which is why the engines in this kind of boat not only have pre-lube systems but the blocks are kept at full operating temperature 24/7/365 (see photo).

For the recreational boat that gets started, idles for awhile, and then is run in it's "normal" power range, pre-lubing is not really necessary with regards to maximizing or extending the service life of the engine. It will crap out for some other reason long before the difference in startup friction has any effect.

So I'm not saying turning an engine over with the starter is bad for an engine (although it could be for the starter eventually). Only that from a practical point of view, it's not making any difference whatsoever to the service life of that engine. The only reason to do it is to make you think you're being nice to your engine. The reality is, the engine doesn't care.:)
 

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Marin said:
Pre-lubing is beneficial. Pressurizing the oil so it is moved to the moving surfaces WITHOUT turning the engine over is where the benefit comes from. While turning the engine over with the oil pressure at zero may eventually build oil pressure, you've been turning the engine over dry until the pressure builds up. Ergo, you aren't really accomplishing anything other that putting extra wear on the starter mechanism.

And given that most engines under normal use don't wear out or fail because they didn't have a real pre-lube system on them--- most of the engines we have in our boats, old or new, don't--- the whole subject is fairly moot.
Au contraire :D

1st paragraph is incorrect regarding engine wear and benefit of starter only actuated pre-lube - - > The pre-lube by starter alone places no piston compression torque on the bearings such as begins the moment an engine's combustion explosions occur. Therefore pre-lubing via starter to enable “non torque” oil pressure for filling the bearings journals and placing a barrier on bearing surfaces is very beneficial to overall life of the engine.

2nd paragraph does not take into account that a substantial amount of engine wear-and-tear does occur due to poor lubrication conditions. I.e., bearing surfaces experience earlier than necessary wear-out due to poor lubrication / flat tappet and cam lobes the same / piston walls and rings require lubrication as best possible / piston pins need lubes too... etc... etc...

I’m not saying that starter pre-lube will totally cease engine wear-and-tear, what I am saying is that this sort of non-torque pre-lube will delay the effects of wear-and-tear on portions of engine that require constant lube. Oil is changed to try and extend engine life – so is starter actuated, pre compression torque, oil pressure pre-lube... utilized to extend engine life.

Fanciful Examples: Let’s just guess; regular oil changes (rather than no oil change) helps provide 30% to 50% longer engine life – therefore a smart engine owner changes oil at applicable intervals. Another guess; starter oil pressure pre-lube extends the life of bearings and other lube necessary portions by 3% to 7% (rather than no pre-lube) – therefore a smart engine owner starter pre-lubes before allowing combustion to occur. If the owner does both these engine lubrication enhancements... then he can be called – “Real Smart”... IMHO!

BTW: If starter pre-lube does eat an extra starter in life of engine that is cost of doing business – smartly. Especially on boats starters often die from corrosion. Also, many starter deaths occur from turning the starter over for too long per duration and overheating the coils. I have not noticed any appreciable increased starter failures due to my starter pre-lube technique. I haven’t required a new starter in many years... don’t recall the last one! :thumb:
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Art--- I think you are correct in theory, but in the real world I think that's all it is--- an armchair theory. I have yet to purchase a vehicle with an owners manual that says to turn the engine over on the starter to build oil pressure before I start it. The manuals or instructions covering all the aircraft, marine, and diesel equipment I have run over the years have never mentioned turning the engine on the starter to build pre-start oil pressure.

If it was any sort of a factor you'd think the engine manufacturers would be all over themselves either installing pre-lube systems or telling the owners/operators to make sure to turn the engine over with the starter to extend engine life. They don't.

Leaving an engine sit for long periods of disuse is something else, and pickling or some sort of pre-lube is advisable. But engines that are getting regular use? Starter-based pre-lube is a waste of time in terms of extending the service life of the engine. In theory it will. In reality that engine's gonna crap out for some other reason LONG before the minimal reduction in startup wear is going to make an appreciable difference in the engine's performance.

I have been asking about this sort of thing of professionals--- vehicle, aircraft, equipment, and marine engine people---- for decades because like you, I believed that on paper the theory makes sense. But the ONLY place I have ever seen this practice promoted or defended has been among amateurs like those of us on this forum.

So I'm gonna put my faith in the Yamaha, Cummins, Lugger, Lehman, Pratt & Whitney, Wright, Lycoming, Continental, Land Rover, Ford, and BMW people I've talked to about this over the years (these are the ones I remember--- there have been more) and not bother to "pre-lube" the diesels in our boat (or anything else we operate) simpy by turning it over on the starter. And I'll bet our 39 year old Lehmans are never going to know the difference in the many thousands of hours they have left in them before their first overhaul. :)
 
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Marin said:
Art--- I think you are correct in theory, but in the real world I think that's all it is--- an armchair theory.

I have been asking about this sort of thing of professionals--- vehicle, aircraft, equipment, and marine engine people---- for decades because like you, I believed that on paper the theory makes sense. But the ONLY place I have ever seen this practice promoted or defended has been among amateurs like those of us on this forum.
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Marin

I too have spoken to many excellent mechanics / professional engine rebuilders. I know of what I speak... starter actuated pre-lube by establishing oil pressure before start-up is a good way to extend engine life.

I recomend you visit BEARING FAILURES:
http://www.advantageengineparts.com/pdfs/Bearingfailure.pdf

[FONT=Arial,Bold][FONT=Arial,Bold][FONT=Arial,Bold]Following are two quotes: (I highlighted the "primed before start up" sections):

WIPED[/FONT][/FONT][/FONT]
Appearance: Bearing surface smeared or scratched and torn. Bearing metal melted and re-solidified along the edges.
Causes: Lubrication system not primed before start-up. Clogged oil passage. Oil pump failure Improper installation (oil hole blocked). Concentrated loading in localized area of bearing. Misalignment of shaft and bearing surfaces. Insufficient clearance.

OIL STARVATION
Appearance: Bearing surface streaked and smeared with worst damage at center. Heat discoloration. May show pick-up of bearing material on shaft depending on severity. NOTE: This condition will progress into “Wiping” and “Hot Short”.
Causes: Low oil level, blocked oil pick-up, oil pump failure, blocked oil hole or oil passage, excessive dilution of oil by fuel or coolant, lubrication system not primed before start-up, overspeed.
 
Sorry, Art. I don't buy it. WAY too many reputable mechanics and engine engineers have told me that pre-lube by starter is a giant waste of time in terms of getting more serviceable life out of an engine. The number of people--- mostly amateurs--- who have endorsed this practice I can count on one hand.

So I'm going with the pros on this one. But crank away if you think it's helping. If you believe hard enough that it will actually make a difference you never know, it just might. Especially if you mount a little pot-bellied Buddha at your helm station and rub its stomach before every engine start. The PT boat guys did this before every mission. So did the aku (albacore tuna) fishermen in Hawaii before they went out every day.

One of the girls in the executive lounge of the hotel we stayed in in Xiamen, China gave me a little wooden Buddha and I rub its tummy every day before going to work. Don't know if it makes any actual difference but it makes me feel like I'm being pro-active in how my day goes. So perhaps one of these little guys will help you believe your engine cranking is doing some good. Never underestimate the power of superstition......

By the way, since you have a pair of gas engines, I have a couple of 100 mpg carburetors I'll be happy to sell you since I've got no use for them anymore. Guy who sold them to me swore they worked great. "You just have to have faith," he said. :)
 
Marin said:
Sorry, Art. I don't buy it. WAY too many reputable mechanics and engine engineers have told me that pre-lube by starter is a giant waste of time in terms of getting more serviceable life out of an engine. The number of people--- mostly amateurs--- who have endorsed this practice I can count on one hand. I SIMPLY DON'T BUY THOSE STATEMENTS AT ALL. :rolleyes:

So I'm going with the pros on this one. But crank away if you think it's helping. If you believe hard enough that it will actually make a difference you never know, it just might. Especially if you mount a little pot-bellied Buddha at your helm station and rub its stomach before every engine start. The PT boat guys did this before every mission. So did the aku (albacore tuna) fishermen in Hawaii before they went out every day. WHEN BEING PROVEN INCORRECT MANY DEBATORS RELY ON MEANINGLESS OFF SUBJECT HUMOR TO TRY AND DIVERT INTEREST FROM A SUBJECT, ESPECIALLY A SUBJECT THEY DESIRE TO HOLD INCORRECT VIEW UPON... NO MATTER THE PROOF DISPLAYED :ermm:

One of the girls in the executive lounge of the hotel we stayed in in Xiamen, China gave me a little wooden Buddha and I rub its tummy every day before going to work. Don't know if it makes any actual difference but it makes me feel like I'm being pro-active in how my day goes. So perhaps one of these little guys will help you believe your engine cranking is doing some good. Never underestimate the power of superstition...... OH BOY, MORE HUMOR... :lol: :lol:

By the way, since you have a pair of gas engines, I have a couple of 100 mpg carburetors I'll be happy to sell you since I've got no use for them anymore. Guy who sold them to me swore they worked great. "You just have to have faith," he said. HA HA HA HA HA - AND STILL, STARTER ACTIVATED PRE-LUBE OIL PRESSURE EXTENDS ENGINE BEARING AND OTHER ENGINE PORTIONS' LIFE.

SORRY MARIN, BUT, HUMAR NEVER ALTERS FACTS! :dance: CAREFULLY READ THE LINK IN MY PREVIOUS POST. :thumb:
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Most ships and other vessels with large engines will use a starting drill of heating the lube oil and then pressurizing the oil galleries.

Weather this drill will extend the service life of a small diesel , that is normally killed , seldom worn out is doubtful, but possible.

Our "solution" an installed 120v block heater ,which might extend engine life , but sure does make starting in the cold far easier.

The difference between 3, 30 second cranks with a wait time , and a smokey start ,,, or a 2 second crank, no smoke.

FF
 
Art said:
Marin said:
CAREFULLY READ THE LINK IN MY PREVIOUS POST. :thumb:
Click to expand...

I did. They describe conditions that can occur from insufficient lubrication and I have no argument with them. But the wear that occurs from starting an engine normally--- and I don't mean specialized engines or huge engines or engines that have to be able to come to full power immediately, but every day engines like the ones in our cars and boats and the airplane I fly--- is not significant enough to care about. If it was, these engines would have proper pre-lube systems or the manufacturers would all be telling us to turn the engines over with the starter before starting. They don't.

If you want to operate your boat's engines using an armchair theory because you're convinced it makes a difference, for heaven's sake don't stop doing it. You're certainly not hurting anything. The life cycles of a bazillion engines all over the planet have demonstrated that you aren't accomplishing anything meaningful with regards to extending the service life of your engine--- they all crapped out for some other reason other than a bit of scuffing on the the crank bearings from startup---but you aren't hurting anything by doing it.

I'm not trying to change your mind. Only present the commonly held view among professionals that the practice you advocate is totally unnecessary.
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Nuff Said! On following either accounting... Buyer Be Ware!! :thumb:
 
My Perkins book Said not to use Syn oil and I am going to stay with that.
Diesel engines are high compression and need to have rings seal to the cylinders.
I use a bypass oil filter and oil analysis. It has worked well for many years.
Don
 
I took a seminar given by Lehman engine 'guru' Norm Dibble. Norm worked for Pat's Marine Engines in Seattle, and before that at Doc Freemans. He is a well respected Lehman mechanic, having worked on FL's for 40 years.

He recommended 'preheating' Lehmans by cranking with the stop lever activated to heat the combustion chamber in cool or cold weather. It must be done with the fuel stop lever activated to prevent any fuel being injected into the cylinders. The compression heats up the combustion chambers AND circulates some lube oil. My experience with this procedure is positive. The 'dry' (no fuel) cranking allows for a much faster start when cold and after a long period of storage in the winter. I also note that the oil pressure builds up faster than with just a regular 'crank till it starts' cold start.

It is critical to not let fuel be injected into the cylinders during preheat, as the injected fuel cools the cylinder defeating the preheating by compression. That fuel also washes the cylinder walls, and adds to the dilution of the oil.

He also recommended using Chevron Delo 400 30 wt. oil in the PNW. His statement was that multigrade oils contain additives so that part of the quart is not actually dino oil.

I respect his 40 years of experience with Lehmans. I follow his recommendations as I do not want to experiment with my own engine.

The cranking procedure recommended is to crank for a count of 10 with the stop button held down. Then while still cranking, release the stop button. The engine should start promptly.
 
I've heard about that method but never had occasion to try it. We use our boat year round, and often more in the late fall, winter, and early spring than in the summer. But we keep heat in the engine room so its always about 50-55 degrees down there when we start the engines. They start instanty just like they do in the warmer parts of the year. We have yet to even have to use the cold start knobs.

But if we didn't keep heat in the engine room I've heard the cold start knobs (connected to the fuel limit bypass arm on the injection pump) are quite effective. And Norm Dibble's method makes sense, too, on an engine with no glow plugs. Our generator has glow plugs as well as a pre-heat coil in the air intake. Boy, do those make a difference when starting the thing cold. Too bad the Ford Dorset (Lehman 120) engine didn't have them fitted at the factory.
 
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