Kedging technique & equipment

Captains,

After a cursory search on TF for KEDGING not much showed up...

Question - my vessel weighs 64,000 lbs. If we run aground, and set up a kedge, will a 5:1 block & tackle be sufficient to get us free or should we go for a 5-ton come along?

Realizing that a lot depends on what our situation is, the tide, sand/rock, etc., etc., etc.,...

I'm confident that my wife and I can go through Chapman's recommended protocol of grounding by securing the vessel, accessing the damage, and rigging a kedge...but with a 5:1 block & tackle I'm thinking 500-750 lbs of torque at best by hand versus a 5-ton come along?

Anyhoo, I'm just looking for some experienced captain feedback

~Lucky Chucky
mv Ho'okipa
S4326

Lucky Chucky said:

Question - my vessel weighs 64,000 lbs.
~Lucky Chucky
mv Ho'okipa
S4326

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My Selene internet data is listing the 43 at about 42,000 dry. But, running aground can be such a variable as to tides, currents, rock vs sand that maybe focus on not running aground at high tide or at least have a tow boat number to call.

Unable to help with kedging having fortunately never needed to do it despite a couple near misses. However, I do agree with Sunchaser that your Selene 43 weighs quite a bit less than 64,000 ibs. My Selene 47 loaded only weighed in at about 62,000 lbs, so far as we were able to estimate. Would guess your weight no more than 50,000 lbs.

I have only kedged off a couple of times and both were in a 20,000 lb sailboat grounded in soft mud. I rowed a spare anchor out about 75', dropped it, then pulled it in with the boat's windlass. The force was no where near the windlass's ultimate pulling power, no more than a couple of hundred pounds. In both cases I used a snatch block tied off at the bow to pull the bow over to the side and into deeper water. Rarely will you want to pull straight ahead.

How much do you need to pull? Well how much will your kedging anchor, presumably your normal bow anchor, hold. With a 64,000 boat (yes, that also sounds way too much to me) you probably have a pretty decent anchor, at least a 55 lb and maybe a 75 lb Rocna or similar.

That anchor will hold as much as 5,000 lbs in the right bottom conditions. Your windlass will only pull maybe 1,000 lbs. You could rig a multipart block system to multiply that but if you can't get out with 1,000 lbs you probably aren't going to get out with more such as if you are on rocks.

The tow boat operators can chime in here, but if a boat is stuck in just mud, they often hook up and let their prop wash out some mud to make it easier to release the boat. I doubt if their pull exceeds 1,000 lbs.

David

To the OP: As you say, there are many things to consider in any situation where kedging comes into play. To your specific point, though, which was about how much "oomph" you need to pack on board for this contingency, remember that you already have a powerful tool on board in your windlass. Even if you need to kedge-off at the stern, you can run a line from there up to the bow, where most pleasure boats have their windlass firmly attached.

sunchaser said:

But, running aground can be such a variable as to tides, currents, rock vs sand that maybe focus on not running aground at high tide or at least have a tow boat number to call.

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I second focusing on not running aground.

Lot less equipment, planning and stress by staying clear of shallows and rocks.

And with today's chartplotter and other electronics, there's really no excuse for going aground. Inattention or carelessness is the usual culprit.

Thanks. I can send you my specs if you want. It's 64,000 lbs. Nuff said

Ocean going trawler...we're cruising in central and south America where the paper charts and Navionics are not always accurate. And often there is no tow boat or coast guard.

Even the best and smartest people make mistakes...my wife included!!!

Philosophically, I believe that if you operate an ocean going trawler you should be trained and self reliant. That means self-rescue.

With the bow grounded, the windlass and bow anchor are not my 1st course of action.

Setting up a kedge on the stern to secure the vessel is.

I am just looking for experienced captains who have delt with this issue.

Please, no snarky posts..

~LC

Lucky Chucky said:

Thanks. I can send you my specs if you want. It's 64,000 lbs. Nuff said

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I dont doubt it. Last weigh in we were 64,500 lbs. water tanks were maybe 25% full and fuel was down to 30% full. If all tanks were full we would gain another 7000 lbs. We dont have stabilizer’s or a get home unit so those would probably add another 4-5 K lbs. Betcha if we unloaded all the spare parts, stores and personal items we might loose 6-7 K Lbs, maybe more. Hell the dink alone is 750 lbs. It all adds up rather quickly

Anyway, with regards to using the windless. I’d probably use block and tackle (4 or even 6 to 1 purchase) to reduce strain in the winless. It made a Hugh difference when I added another block to the boom winches Up on the boat deck.

Cheers Buddy!

Thanks John!!!

Using the boom/davit to pull the kedge is an interesting idea which I didn't consider

My concern would be the angle of pull...which would be around 90 degrees?

And I wouldn't want to displace the set kedge...

I'll give it some more thought...

Thank you. Best wishes to you and Tracey!!!

why not use the block and tackle with working part fair led to bow to take advantage of anchor winch/ windlass?.....the essence of salvage is use everything you have available...
I don't think that boom and davit could take that kind of stress. Its used routinely for sailboat kedging but s/v mast usually go to keel and is much more sturdy than a deck mounted mast used for dinghy launching

Sailor of Good Fortune, good point!!!

It all depends on the situation...if it's rough weather and the tide is not slack, the stern needs to stabilize and fast.

To deploy the bow anchor doesn't solve the immediate problem to stabilize.

To use the bow windlass to torque a stern anchor would cause havic with the angel of pull and release...it may turn the vessel 90-180 degrees and with the wind and tide blow abeam...yikes!!!

Thoughts?

Lucky Chucky said:

Sailor of Good Fortune, good point!!!

It all depends on the situation...if it's rough weather and the tide is not slack, the stern needs to stabilize and fast.

To deploy the bow anchor doesn't solve the immediate problem to stabilize.

To use the bow windlass to torque a stern anchor would cause havic with the angel of pull and release...it may turn the vessel 90-180 degrees and with the wind and tide blow abeam...yikes!!!

Thoughts?

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I'm not talking about deploying the bow anchor. I'm talking about using bow windless to take strain from one or more stern anchors through block and tackle via a line fairled from aft to fwd to use windlass

Handling an anchor big enough to effectively kedge a 63,000 vessel is no small task. I would suggest getting the largest Fortress anchor you can physically handle. A FX85 or 125 will be significantly lighter then anything else of equivalent holding power. I would also skip any chain and use a low stretch line rather than a more conventional 3 strand.

Sailor of Fortune wrote, "I'm not talking about deploying the bow anchor. I'm talking about using bow windless to take strain from one or more stern anchors through block and tackle via a line fairled from aft to fwd to use windlass."

Ditto. I have used my windlass to kedge off just that way. Using the dinghy, I carried a stern anchor (a pretty big Danforth) out to deeper water, as far as the length of its rode would permit. Back at the stern of the boat, I fed the rode back aboard through an aft hawse hole in the starboard quarter. From there, I ran the line along the starboard walkway, past the pilothouse door, and up to the windlass. After heaving the line taut, doing my best to hand-set the stern anchor, I began taking the line in with the windlass. That was sufficient to move the boat stern first, and I was off the mud in a jiffy.

The boat was a 42' Grand Banks. In using the windlass to heave in on a line running aft, I feared chafe along the forward corner of the cabin trunk as the rode tightened and moved across the gelcoat, but there was no damage. A block attached to a breast cleat could have alleviated that concern, but I was working fast (against a falling tide) with the tools at hand.

Once I was free of the bottom, before trying to maneuver, I tied a fender to the end of the stern anchor rode and dropped it over the side. Once I had recovered the forward anchor (that had been set off the bow), I maneuvered back to pick up the stern hook. Mission accomplished.

How I got into that whole situation is another story . . .

Lucky Chucky said:

Thanks John!!!

Using the boom/davit to pull the kedge is an interesting idea which I didn't consider

My concern would be the angle of pull...which would be around 90 degrees?

And I wouldn't want to displace the set kedge...

I'll give it some more thought...

Thank you. Best wishes to you and Tracey!!!

Click to expand...

Didn’t think about using the boom to set tension on a stern anchor, I suppose if ya lowered the boom as much as possible and then slowly winched in on the lower winch it might work, angle of the dangle thing ya know.
I was referring to running a line aft to use the windless. But after looking at my boat, that would require running the line over the top of the Portuguese bridge wall. A better solution might be to run the line out the haws pipe along the side and back through the stern haws to the stern anchor. Does that make sense?

By the way, were in La Paz now for the next month or so. And if you get a chance, update your position on the Selene Owners site. Like to see where you guys are and its a usful tool.

Cheers again, John

Never mind, I’m a bit slow....You guys are here in La Paz also. Were in Marina Cortez and You look to be Costa Baja, if so.. Ill get the dink down in a few days and come see ya. Do ya see another Selene there also?

I had a chat with a fellow on the dock here in Kitimat who had an epic grounding tale to tell. I stopped to chat with him because he was in a 60' converted commercial tuna boat from Oregon, and looked to have done a really good job with the conversion.

He was at the head of one of the inlets off Gardner Canal and didn't know charts around here can't be trusted when close to an estuary because of sediment that's been deposited since the area was last charted.

He said he woke up while anchored and noticed a subtle lean. He looked outside to see his boat surrounded by very shallow water, and the tide was still going down. He was stuck, and the boat was going to flop onto its side in the soft muck.

Amazingly, there was a Fisheries Officer in the bay who told him to start his engine, put it into reverse, and slowly increase the throttle. What ended up happening was the propeller wash along the hull dug a trench that the boat could sit in. Turns out the boat returned to level floating in its self made trench and he walked around his boat to take pictures at low tide. High tide lifted him to freedom.

You might want to stick it in your quiver of options, if the bottom is soft muck.

I have a heavy boat and move it with line often. To pull from the stern using the windless, I run the line along the deck house. If I have a heavy pull that may cause wear, I use snatch blocks attached to cleats along the way to keep it off the house.
I've been on the water about 60 years, travel to remote places, and often enter shallows not surveyed in 50-100 years. I've never run aground, but do carry anchors, etc. that could kedge.

We carry a 1.5 ton come along that when attached to a cleat can be used (never needed) for moving the boat forward, sideways or aft. In the high tide PNW kedging seems a remote idea.

When boating in sandy Mississippi conditions a stern anchor with rope rode was dropped and the windlass then used to pull to shore with engines turned off. When time to leave the line from stern anchor was then wrapped around windlass drum to pull us off. In the sometimes sandy Baja bottoms with nominal tide ranges easy to see how similar techniques could be used.

We found out the hard way, when intentionally aground in sandy bottoms, minimize engine and genset run times.

Speed to get unstuck is important .The tide could be droping.

A nice setup is to already have (2) used 2 speed sailboat winches already mounted on the stern quarter.
They are a delight in many docking situations .

An anchor you can easily load into your easy/fast to deploy dink that can be rowed out quickly is usually best bet.

A constant strain on the line helps .

In ICW waters many boats can be unstuck quickly , by simply asking a larger boat to pass at speed and create a nice wake.

syjos said:

I second focusing on not running aground.

Lot less equipment, planning and stress by staying clear of shallows and rocks.

And with today's chartplotter and other electronics, there's really no excuse for going aground. Inattention or carelessness is the usual culprit.

Click to expand...

Inattention is what got me last year in South Carolina. Just a few seconds and the 30 mph wind on the beam pushed me out of the channel. I caught my drift but it was too late to recover. Kedging was not an option. Deploying an 88# anchor on 3/8 inch chain in a dinghy in a 30 mph wind, well, not for me. Called the tow boat. Off the shoal in 10 minutes. To hell with kedging.

Ever notice how jeep owners insist on putting the wench on the forward bumper? I guess they want to pull themselves further into the problem. SHRUG Their choice.

I agree with the recommendation to have a reasonable current copy of Chapman's book.
If nothing else, it will give you something to read while waiting for the tide to rise or a boater willing to help

A smart operator knows how to rig snatch blocks to assist in whatever direction you need to go.

psneeld said:

A smart operator knows how to rig snatch blocks to assist in whatever direction you need to go.

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and a convient big tree to chain the block to also.

OldDan1943 said:

Ever notice how jeep owners insist on putting the wench on the forward bumper? I guess they want to pull themselves further into the problem. SHRUG Their choice.

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A trip or two into the real backwoods, mudholes or desert 4 wheeling will quickly show you why the winch is on the front.

sunchaser said:

A trip or two into the real backwoods, mudholes or desert 4 wheeling will quickly show you why the winch is on the front.

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LOL That's it, pull yourself deeper into trouble.

OldDan1943 said:

and a convient big tree to chain the block to also.

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Not necessarily, real mudders/outbackers carry stakes or anchors if trees/rocks aren't available


Gotta be as smart or smarter than your equipment.


Often, smart offroaders know it only takes a little pulling to get themselves out....more than much of the time.... the winch is to pull others out.

Thank you for the serieious replies...

After further thought and discussion, another possability is to:

a. set the kedge
b. set up a sling and carabiner on the stern to redirect and reduce the davit/boom pull angle

I like the idea of using the windlass if there's time to tie off the anchor...remove the chain from the gypse...and set up all the lines that are not 3-stranded NYLON which have an excessive stretch and dangerous snap back action.

Question using the windlass with a 48 LOA and attaching to the kedge line with a bowline adding another few feet, I should have a 50-100' line that is either polypropylene or double braded nylon...is that correct?

Please, no snarky replies to this thread...please.

~Lucky Chucky

I would think there would be a considerable risk of bending your rudder, shaft or prop support thingies ( the name escapes me at the moment ) Would a better approach be a set of sturdy timbers or airbags to support the boat until the next high tide ??