I was boarded today

Bigsfish said:

Scott in your vast experience have you ever known a boarding party to use a flash-bang? The chance of fire is great, at least in houses.

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Irv...no I can't say I have ever heard of a flash bang being used by the USCG...that's because most boardings are routine and the targeted vessels really don't pose a threat

The boarding teams are trained to observe what looks routine and what doesn't.


State jurisdiction ends at 3 miles.....there may be a few agreements that allow very limited enforcement out further...


Probably similar to National waters out to 12...but EEZ out to 200.

Thanks. We have seen several fires caused by flash bangs, I would imagine on a wood boat it could be a disaster.

Never been boarded. Seems they have more important tasks.

I was boarded or had floating boat to boat conversations with CBP, the Washington State fish cops and USGG personnel several times with our prior boat. Every time everyone was respectful and polite, except one fish cop who was yelling at me about fending off their boat to prevent damage to either. The most bizarre stop was from CBP as l was headed into Canada and probably within a mile of the boarder running at 25kn. Flat water, beautiful day, and I hear a beep beep from my starboard stern. This guy was running along side less than two feet from the side of my boat at 25kn! To be fair, I had been keeping an eye on an old bridge deck boat who crossed in front of me, from the port side, causing me to make a slight course correction to avoid a collision. I waved that I would comply and slowed to a stop and explained about the other craft having my attention. I answered the usual and obvious questions and they decided I was harmless.
The last time we were boarded, it was by the USCG, and as they approached the noncom in charge ask if I had and weapons on board. I replied “not yet” and I made a point of looking at his side arm. It took a couple of times until he got it and then I don’t think he knew whether to laugh or try to stay serious. We had a good experience from there.
I have the deepest regard for LE and all of our Military and respect the job they do for us. However, anyone who sneaks aboard in the middle of the night is going to hear me yelling for identity.

Perhaps having a slow boat with visible overboard recovery equipment would reduce USCG inquiry?

That is precisely what I did when boarded. We were directed by radio to heave to for a boarding. I immediately reduced speed to stearage way and asked for further instructions. I was told to go to idle speed on autopilot. I also informed the CG that they would find a shotgun on the bed in the owner's cabin. They were welcomed aboard with politeness and cooperation. I answered all of their questions. All went well.

OldDan1943 said:

Do not leave the helm unless directed to move.
TELL them where the gun/s are located. Dont offer to help or show them.
Have your ship's papers available and TELL them where they are.
Answer all questions directly w/o hesitation.
Thank them and might want to add, be safe.
SMILE I know of one guy who offered to make them some sandwiches, they accepted.

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diver dave said:

CBP surprised us in the wee hours one time. Sitting miles offshore with nav lights off.

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Hmm

Not a peep

Arc said:

They just boarded with out a word spoken ?

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I was amazed.

From and too

BandB said:

Where were you going from and where to?

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We had left a friend's house in Jacksonville and were headed to Palm coadt enroute to Stuart.

Nope

menzies said:

Hmmm, did you ask them about not hailing?

And did you notice CG personnel with them?

I would follow up with a courteous question to Commander CG Station JAX (Mayport). While they were not under his command I would like to hear what he says.

Did you get any post inspection documentation?

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No post inspection documentation. No coastguard personnel. Only sheriffs deputies and customs and emigration.

I have wondered about that

OldDan1943 said:

If they had asked for permission to board you, it would have been purely out of courtesy. If you, the captain, had said NO, they would have stop being nice, escorted you back to a dock, detaining you until they got search warrant.

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I am uncertain how they could have escorted me any where were I unwilling. Wouldn't they have go have reasonable cause. Why would any judge grant a search warrant.

Imagine the outcome had previous owners left some pot on board in a place I head not thought to look.

Not missing anything

Arc said:

I have dealt with marine law enforcement for 20 years. I have never seen a boarding happen without some communication prior to stepping on board. We may be missing some facts.

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I saw they were near by. I ensured my radio was on 16 and the volume up. They did not call us.

I asked whether they do this kind of thing often, and they said yes. They like to surprise people.

No communication

Larry M said:

My read is they communicated with your wife and didn’t feel the need also use the radio.

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Didn't say anything to my wife in words or gesture.

Humorous incident but not at the time.

I was boarded six times one day returning from the Bahamas more than once by the same agencies. First attempt was about 20 miles offshore was a CG boat about 80 feet in 8 foot seas. Radioed they wanted to board me, I politely refused stating it was dangerous to the boat and those of us on board. I told them I has headed to government cut and once there it would be safe to board. They agreed and that was the first boarding. Five more after that in the course of 6 or 7 miles. Yeah I was pissed.

We were underway

denverd0n said:

Common misconception, but the Supreme Court has ruled on this specifically. If a law-enforcement officer asks you to voluntarily do anything -- answer questions, submit to a search, whatever -- and you tell him "no," that absolutely does NOT constitute either "probable cause" nor "reasonable, articulable suspicion" of anything. They cannot justify an unwarranted search by claiming that you refused to consent to a voluntary search and they found that suspicious.



Beyond that, the OP never said that he was underway when this happened. Perhaps he was anchored, his wife was on deck and clearly saw the LEOs, and so they just stepped onto his swim platform and up onto the boat. If that's the case, I don't see a problem. If they were, in fact, underway when the boarding occurred, then they were putting themselves at unnecessary risk by not having him slow or stop.

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Were were going by a mooring field, so i had showed to about five knots.

All you second guessers: no communication odd any type. No arm and hand signals, no siren. No yelling. No winking. Nothing.

I had a proper look out. I knew they were behind us, but not that they were comming so close.

markpierce said:

Perhaps having a slow boat with visible overboard recovery equipment would reduce USCG inquiry?

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Not neccessarily...mission parameters dictate the boarding.

Usually, if you have a USCG 4100 form (boarding slip)...you say you have one from less than a year ago and the USCG will leave you alone in most areas...but maybe not returning to south Florida.


Calling the USCG about a boarding from a state agency will probably give you nothing in particular. They might answer some generic questions, but the USCG has not authority or usually knowledge of what state agencies do in their own state.

Bigsfish said:

Humorous incident but not at the time.

I was boarded six times one day returning from the Bahamas more than once by the same agencies. First attempt was about 20 miles offshore was a CG boat about 80 feet in 8 foot seas. Radioed they wanted to board me, I politely refused stating it was dangerous to the boat and those of us on board. I told them I has headed to government cut and once there it would be safe to board. They agreed and that was the first boarding. Five more after that in the course of 6 or 7 miles. Yeah I was pissed.

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Great story. U cant say they were not organized to make that point!

We were hailed by BDF patrol boat to approach and raft up in the open ocean. They assigned a man each to a giant inflated fender to keep us from damage. Then, they dropped a few more inspectors on board and we parted while the inspection took place. Yes, they counted every round of ammo on the boat.

diver dave said:

G Yes, they counted every round of ammo on the boat.

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What was their reason for doing that?

Bahamian authorities, yes. But in the US?

menzies said:

What was their reason for doing that?



Bahamian authorities, yes. But in the US?

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Bahamas defence force. Not far from memory rock.

If you are boarded in the Bahamas they will check your firearms and count every single round of ammo and caliber looking for an infraction. Probably more strict on ammo than anything else. The BDF usually will have a US coast guard member on board so they can enforce both countries laws.

The absolute authority to board is written into a statue, but prohibited in Article IV. The Supreme Court does not ever seem to have addressed this directly for pleasure boats, those decisions have hinged narrowly on "reasonable suspicion" and almost all involved commercial traffic. Circuit court decisions seem to be mixed, leaning but not falling to the USCG point of view. Where the CG lost these they have not appealed to the Supreme Court, perhaps they were worried about the answer there.

The test case would be a pleasure boat attempted to board in inland waters, refused by the captain who was then arrested, and nothing found in the subsequent search. Captain willing and able to appeal all the way to the Supreme court. It would take a lot of time and very deep pockets, which I suppose is why it hasn't happened. Also the chance that the CG would not appeal a lower court loss for fear of it becoming the law of the land. There is plenty of case law for automobiles, RVs, etc where such random administrative searches have been held to violate Article IV. A commercial ship on the high seas might be different, but a pleasure boat on inland waters?

This?


Article [IV] (Amendment 4 - Search and Seizure)

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by Oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized.


A lot of people here have said they didn't think a USCG boarding was "unreasonable".


That's why I have posted several times the USCG doesn't exercise their full power most of the time and gets warrants for other than routine safety checks and doesn't do much with recreational boaters at the dock, etc...etc... They DO want to protect their ability to do their job effectively in the long run.


But I will bet money that it would take a BIG change even in a liberal courts opinion (which hasn't happened yet) to strip the USCG of that power.

diver dave said:

Bahamas defence force. Not far from memory rock.

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Ah, missed that you said BDF.

Yep, they count every round. Then later when you are inspected if you have less than counted they "know" you have discharged. If you have more then they "know" you are planning on discharging!

Menzies when you enter the Bahamas on your declaration you must list the serial number of your weapons which is checked by the customs inspector and you must list how many rounds and caliber of every bullet you have. When stopped they will search for ammunition and compare to your declaration. If not exact it won’t go well.

Bigsfish said:

Menzies when you enter the Bahamas on your declaration you must list the serial number of your weapons which is checked by the customs inspector and you must list how many rounds and caliber of every bullet you have. When stopped they will search for ammunition and compare to your declaration. If not exact it won’t go well.

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There are those who have not been careful counting and declaring going in and then had a difference when BDF counted on departure and had very serious issues. Taken to jail and eventually allowed to depart after a very sizable fine and banned from returning to the Bahamas.

BandB said:

There are those who have not been careful counting and declaring going in and then had a difference when BDF counted on departure and had very serious issues. Taken to jail and eventually allowed to depart after a very sizable fine and banned from returning to the Bahamas.

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Easy solution. Don't take a firearm into the Bahamas. Sweep your boat for ammo.

Bigsfish said:

Menzies when you enter the Bahamas on your declaration you must list the serial number of your weapons which is checked by the customs inspector and you must list how many rounds and caliber of every bullet you have. When stopped they will search for ammunition and compare to your declaration. If not exact it won’t go well.

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I know - go there every year.

I thought he was saying the the USCG had checked for ammo.

Just a point of clarification, the case cited in this and many other discussions about LE boardings, UNITED STATES v. VILLAMONTE-MARQUEZ(1983), is actually a US Customs case concerning a 40 ft sailboat (which most would consider recreational size) that was anchored near Lake Charles, La. This case went to the Supreme Court and was upheld.
So anyone considering refusing a boarding or any other silly idea and then taking it to the Supreme Court should know that that question has already been asked AND answered by the highest court.

Sounds like a police state to me.
I don't know what's more frightening, that or the fact that you seem to accept it as normal.