The perfect Loop boat

After many appreciated responses to my first posts, and on my continued research for the perfect loop boat, it is becoming very clear to me that there is no perfect Loop boat, or at least that, everyone’s perfect loop boat is different.

Furthermore, understanding that, every boat will likely be somewhat of a compromise, and realizing that even if we find what we think is the perfect boat, it probably won’t be available or in our price range, I want to ask some questions of all those experienced folk out there that have done the loop, or at least traveled extensively along the loop area.

So here we go and you can stick a “Why” on the end of each question.

1:
Knowing the bugs and weather along the way, which would you choose, between?

A: Flybridge with no inner helm, (More inner space but only the exterior upper level helm)

B: Flybridge with inner helm (Less salon volume, but a nice inner helm for poor days)

C: Raised pilot house (So maybe no flybridge, smaller salon but the added space in the PH and again a nice inside helm for poor days)

2:
If your choice was for the inner helm, is immediate access off the helm for docking & locking a big deal, or does a remote (Or experience) solve the problem adequately?

3:
We want a decent outdoor space for dining and hanging out, but we also want 2 cabins for guests, or if we need separation, and again we want to consider size of the boat, ease of use, and fuel economy.

With those things in mind, which would you choose between?

A: A possibly smaller aft cabin boat (More cabin space for the size, good deck over aft cabin, but more awkward traffic patterns in and out, and on and off the vessel)

B: A possibly larger flush deck EU type boat, (Better flow and movement on and off the boat, but probably a smaller interior volume)

And then to “Zoom out” even more:

4: Is interior space or exterior space ultimately more valuable on this trip?

5: Is an Interior helm or exterior helm ultimately more valuable on this trip?

Many thanks for any replies.

“The Bolton Wanderer”

You’ve ‘researched’ a lot of boats. How many have you actually been on? I think only you can answer most of your questions based on what appeals to you and yours.

Any of the options presented will work for the loop.

Air draft, water draft, length, economy, maneuvering, ability to access systems, and your experience also matter. Above all, condition matters.

I’m not trying to rain on your parade, but your questions all point to personal preferences, of which you will get many responses, mostly confirming what the responders have.

Clivepc said:

After many appreciated responses to my first posts, and on my continued research for the perfect loop boat, it is becoming very clear to me that there is no perfect Loop boat, or at least that, everyone’s perfect loop boat is different.

Furthermore, understanding that, every boat will likely be somewhat of a compromise, and realizing that even if we find what we think is the perfect boat, it probably won’t be available or in our price range, I want to ask some questions of all those experienced folk out there that have done the loop, or at least traveled extensively along the loop area.

So here we go and you can stick a “Why” on the end of each question.

1:
Knowing the bugs and weather along the way, which would you choose, between?

A: Flybridge with no inner helm, (More inner space but only the exterior upper level helm)

B: Flybridge with inner helm (Less salon volume, but a nice inner helm for poor days)

C: Raised pilot house (So maybe no flybridge, smaller salon but the added space in the PH and again a nice inside helm for poor days)

2:
If your choice was for the inner helm, is immediate access off the helm for docking & locking a big deal, or does a remote (Or experience) solve the problem adequately?

3:
We want a decent outdoor space for dining and hanging out, but we also want 2 cabins for guests, or if we need separation, and again we want to consider size of the boat, ease of use, and fuel economy.

With those things in mind, which would you choose between?

A: A possibly smaller aft cabin boat (More cabin space for the size, good deck over aft cabin, but more awkward traffic patterns in and out, and on and off the vessel)

B: A possibly larger flush deck EU type boat, (Better flow and movement on and off the boat, but probably a smaller interior volume)

And then to “Zoom out” even more:

4: Is interior space or exterior space ultimately more valuable on this trip?

5: Is an Interior helm or exterior helm ultimately more valuable on this trip?

Many thanks for any replies.

“The Bolton Wanderer”

Click to expand...

Wifey B: I want flybridge and lower helms. I want to be able to enjoy the nice days up top and stay warm when cold and rainy.

Flybridge is especially nice for the canals. I knew one couple that was on a smaller express cruiser and felt like they were looking at the banks rather than all the scenery.

Interior and exterior space are important. It's a long long trip and you need different spaces so you and any guests can roam. Access to docks is important but, even more, for handling in locks so you need easy access.

For me, the 'perfect loop boat' would be one that I already had and one that I wanted to keep after running the loop!

The 'perfect boat' for any adventure is based upon the needs of the person, or couple, operating the boat.
- Some folks want to run fast, some folks more slowly.
- Some folks want to run the boat in any weather, while other folks run primarily in fairer weather.
- etc, etc.

I think you need to get out on different boats and see what feels comfortable to both YOU and your budget!

Jim

It all comes down to personal preference, ability and capability. We have met folks who did the loop with an old Mainship 34, others would never consider this boat.

Check my avatar for the perfect Loop boat.

All kidding aside, some things to consider (IMO), if you don't understand Looping, the purpose is to get off the boat and site see. It's your home for most of a year or more. You will be traveling on not so nice days sometimes.

Last first. Many people own boats to use on nice days or nice weekends and host parties with friends. That's not the purpose of your Loop boat. This doesn't mean you will be traveling in high winds etc., but you will likely be moving on rainy days and other less than optimal conditions. Anyone can endure driving in the rain and getting soaked once or twice a year. How many times in a year do you want to do it? Now add cold, hot and humid, and how about bugs. I'll take my pilothouse with 2 side doors, heat, air conditioning, and real glass with windshield wipers.

Inside space is the most important. Again, this is going to be your home for a year. All boats have some outside space. It's really not as important as you're likely not entertaining like you would at home with a bunch of friends over. Let's say you bought a 40' boat. Let's say a really good design yields 300 to 400 square feet of internal living space. You're getting ready to live in an apartment for a year with 300 to 400 square feet of space. Don't waste space; don't underestimate the need for space. And don't worry about where you're going to put a folding chair on deck when at anchor or tied to the dock.

Lastly, this boat is about functionality for a site seeing trip. It needs to be easy to dock and get off of, easy to anchor and launch a dinghy /tender, and easy to leave unattended while you site see. If it's not easy, you will miss a lot, because it's too much like work.

Ted

Did the Loop last year and got rained on lightly just a couple of times. Watch the weather and travel smartly. Doing the Loop is not a race. We were stucok in Charlevoix, MI for six days along with 15 other Loopers waiting out the rain and waves. Charlevoix is a delghtful town. We are on a DeFever 44 with an upper and lower helm. Rarely used the lower helm even in cold weather even though our upper has only a bimini. We just dressed for the conditions. If you have an enclosure for the upper, well, that is luxury for us. We are adding that to our boat soon.

OC Driver, we prefer a pilothouse for all the reasons you state but made a compromise to have the added space and big engine room of a DeFever rather than the Krogen 42 we considered when we were looking. When we were ready to buy, there were no even decent KK42s on the market. Our dream boat is a DeFever 49 Plan B pilothouse.

O C Diver said:

Check my avatar for the perfect Loop boat.

All kidding aside, some things to consider (IMO), if you don't understand Looping, the purpose is to get off the boat and site see. It's your home for most of a year or more. You will be traveling on not so nice days sometimes.

Last first. Many people own boats to use on nice days or nice weekends and host parties with friends. That's not the purpose of your Loop boat. This doesn't mean you will be traveling in high winds etc., but you will likely be moving on rainy days and other less than optimal conditions. Anyone can endure driving in the rain and getting soaked once or twice a year. How many times in a year do you want to do it? Now add cold, hot and humid, and how about bugs. I'll take my pilothouse with 2 side doors, heat, air conditioning, and real glass with windshield wipers.

Inside space is the most important. Again, this is going to be your home for a year. All boats have some outside space. It's really not as important as you're likely not entertaining like you would at home with a bunch of friends over. Let's say you bought a 40' boat. Let's say a really good design yields 300 to 400 square feet of internal living space. You're getting ready to live in an apartment for a year with 300 to 400 square feet of space. Don't waste space; don't underestimate the need for space. And don't worry about where you're going to put a folding chair on deck when at anchor or tied to the dock.

Lastly, this boat is about functionality for a site seeing trip. It needs to be easy to dock and get off of, easy to anchor and launch a dinghy /tender, and easy to leave unattended while you site see. If it's not easy, you will miss a lot, because it's too much like work.

Ted

Click to expand...

1. A) Money no object: Raised pilothouse AND flybridge. B) If cost drives: flybridge and lower helm. C) If cost REALLY drives: flybridge, at least with an enclosure, ideally a hardtop, and stairs (no ladder).

2. Immediate side access preferred. No experience with remote controls.

3. We prefer a mixture of inside, outside open, and outside enclosed areas.

4. Yes.

5. I prefer flybridge helm (with stairs, no ladder) for almost everything; better visibility.

Your questions speak to personal preference, though, so YMMV.

-Chris

All, thank you very much for your replies and I got much of what I expected back in your comments.
Although we could wait some days, piloting in the cold and rain looking through plastic seems less appealing. having the flybridge though does feel appealing in better weather. both helms therefore feel right, access feels sensible, layout is huge, I'm hearing exterior space less important, as on any boat there will enough.

Feels like 40ft may be the minimum, with 45 pushing the max. availability, and funds will come into play, and as you all say, getting on boats is a must. Currently living In Idaho presents the biggest challenge to that, but we'll make it happen and have been on a few to date.
Nordic 42 decent boat, cramped salon.
Helmsman 38 and 43 great boats, not many used.
North Pacific 39 42 good contenders.
KK 42 nice boat, just didn't feel right.
Nordhavn 40 43, nice vessels, great for Alaska, too much boat and money for this trip.
Ocean Alexander 426 and 45 Classico, short on interior space, otherwise impressed. Engine choices seem to give poor economy.
Grand Banks EU grand boats, overall feel a bit overpriced (For me)
Mainship 44 decent value, good layout.
Selene 45 RPH Oh Baby!

Just saw (Not visited) a Westcoast 46 trawler 46 for sale. hits a ton of buttons. Like the Tolleycraft hull, single screw, price point.
Need to keep taking trips out of state.

Dream boat.. Raised pilothouse, flybridge, upper rear deck, full width salon, 2 stateroom, prefer 1 screw.

Thanks to everyone

The Bolton Wanderer.

What about a Bene SWT 44/41?

don't forget about draft. selene i think is 5' or greater not good

Then there’s the Krogen Manatee 36, I think Kk36 “ Manatee” is on their 24th loop.
Less than 1 1/2 gph burn, salons seat eight, walk around queen, pilothouse 360 degree view, 6’2” +-headroom, 3’ draft, covered cockpit and lots more.

OCDiver got it wrong, Check My avatar for the perfect loop boat! But to address your questions;

Fly bridge and inside steering. Forget about the bugs. Some bug dope generally solves the bug problem.

Also don't worry about docking from the inside helm. Unless you solo a lot you will do 95% of your docking from above. In fact once you become more familiar with docking maneuvers even docking alone will be done from above. I think I only docked from below one time, when my upper steering failed. It was not a great landing.

Your "space" problems will probably solve themselves. People will congregate where it is most comfortable. If you are on the hook on a warm evening probably up above, on a misty or cool evening, probably below. In a mid sized boat (say up to about 38 feet) you really can't have it both ways, on the other hand you really can't go wrong. If it is just the Admiral and I we get together after dinner for chess, card games or board games inside because the light is better and the snacks and beverages are closer. If we have guests on board we often cook our supper and eat at picnic tables at the marina or onshore if there are any near. But then its back to the boat for games and conversation.

pete

I did your research for you 15 years ago...same questions.

Answer: Ocean Alexander 44-46 aft cabin sundeck with cockpit Upper and lower helm, side door adjacent to lower helm, big sundeck, big flybridge, spacious salon (you can see out the side windows when sitting), stunning aft cabin, nice forward cabin (with head). Go for the dinette version. It checks every box. I use both helms on Great Lakes...depending on outside air temperature and bug count.
I despise side canvas.
.

I did your research for 29 years and here is the answer. It also answers the twins/single question.

Pete Meisinger said:

..... In fact once you become more familiar with docking maneuvers even docking alone will be done from above. I think I only docked from below one time, when my upper steering failed. It was not a great landing. ......

Click to expand...

Much prefer helm at deck/near dock level.

I did my research 10 years ago.

Look to the LEFt, see my boat..

pete

I don't care for fly bridge boats for mostly aesthetic reasons, but one thing to consider is how easy is it to get down from the flybridge to the main deck should it be necessary for docking, deploying the anchor, locking through, emergency, whatever. Some boats getting down from the flybridge involves steep ladders, round about routes, etc., that may make a fast descent difficult for some operators who may not be a spry as they used to be (or think they are).

Hard to believe all of you did so much research and still got it wrong.

Ted

Hard to believe you both got it wrong LOL

We did lots of locking thru ALL from a flybridge (we had a lower helm). No need to rush down to grab lines, you have plenty of time usually to get down safely.
Boat handling is easy once you do a few of them, single, thruster, no thruster twins.
Good luck in making your decision.

For locks, time from helm to side deck matters somewhat if you've got 1 or 2 people. If you've got 3, the person at the helm shouldn't have to move.

Personally, I'd put good side decks and good visibility from the helm (regardless of where that helm is located) as high priorities for a loop boat.

Overall, I'd say my boat is a decent (but not perfect) loop boat. It's comfy enough, helm visibility is good, side decks are good, although in cold / crappy weather the helm setup isn't ideal (but better than most flybridges).

Another big factor is fuel range. Any loop boat needs to be able to comfortably run just over 250 statute miles without a fuel stop. My boat falls a little short here in one sense. If you run slow (around 7 kts) for a decent part of the run, 250 miles is well within comfortable fuel range. But it does remove the option of running up on plane whenever you want for that stretch, as there's just not enough range at higher speeds.

Boaters Commandment
“ Speak no ill of another sailors boat”

HiDHo said:

Boaters Commandment
“ Speak no ill of another sailors boat”

Click to expand...

Good one....also picking a boat is like picking a spouse....


No absolute right or wrong...just what is for you.


Must haves for some are "no ways" for others.... I just don't get how so many don't see that....just being around boating for decades ....I would think that principle sinks in.

HiDHo said:

Then there’s the Krogen Manatee 36, I think Kk36 “ Manatee” is on their 24th loop.
Less than 1 1/2 gph burn, salons seat eight, walk around queen, pilothouse 360 degree view, 6’2” +-headroom, 3’ draft, covered cockpit and lots more.

Click to expand...

Bill: Ted & Sarah Pongracz aboard Man-a-Tee are on their 30th, (yes that’s THREE ZERO) loop this year, currently on Marco Island on Gulf Coast, FL waiting out the stay-at-home situation. I can’t imagine how many miles have gone under that hull, but 200,000 of them have been on the loop.

I rarely recommend the Manatee for most purposes mentioned on this forum, but for a safe, comfortable, roomy, quiet and economical journey around the loop, yep, I do. The O/P wants two staterooms and even though there are two-stateroom versions if the Manatee out there, they still share a single head. I personally don’t like to share my bathroom, so I don’t recommend it.

On the other hand, if you want everything that Manatee has but you demand the two state rooms and two heads, there’s always the great harbor GH 37. Perhaps not as rich inside, but it makes it up in space and features like home size appliances and stacked washer & dryer. Inside stairway to the pilothouse is also a plus. Double or more the money though.

You have some good first questions. To give good answers you need to state how many souls aboard. Most loopers have 2 aboard with guests at times. I’ve cruised aboard my 2000 Monk 36, which is for sale.

Why is the Monk a best looper boat?

1. Flexibility. It is very easy for two people to handle this boat when weather is kicking up. Whether on rough water, tight spaces in/out of marinas or bulk heads, this model does well.

2. Space is a relative term. Remember, cruisers travel spring, summer and fall at a minimum. That means everything from swim suits to sweats, jackets boots and flip flops. You need storage for that.

Hobbies and crafts. Many loopers have some sort of hobby or craft they enjoy. How much room does that need? Some knit, crochet, pictures etc.

Personal space. Boats are small usually. Most loopers are not much over 36 - 42 feet. Sometimes a person may need to close a door and have personal time.

3. Weather. It’s something you will endure while cruising and will be underway at times. Usually folks try and keep this at a minimum, however we all get caught once in awhile in bad weather. Comfort is still important. If you are pounding through waves, does the boat handle these conditions well?

Lower helms help relieve much of the pounding, rocking side to side because you are lower. Inside means warm and dry space. Inside means easy access to food, drink and head calls. If you and crew members are being tosses about, moving about the boat is challenging and exhausting.

Wide decks. Again, ease of movement. It makes a big difference when the waters are rough. Sturdy hand rails are a must too.

Space again. Space at home is much different than space on a boat. Most loopers don’t have great amounts of space, but do have guests aboard. Dinner or cocktail hours are common. I’ve found that loopers are happy with little space and enjoy the comradeship even if the are sitting elbow to elbow. You really can make do with less.

Cost. Smaller, single screw vessels are much more economical to run and maintain.

The monk foots all these bills.

Some thoughts

Steve

I ran my boat from the lower helm unless backing into a slip. With just two of us aboard, it was much easier to move into a lock and get tied up if I was ready and available at either in the cabin side doors. BTW, there are plenty of boats without doors on both sides of the cabin. Being up on the flying bridge when mooring and moving into locks placed forced me to be a helpless spectator at times instead of a helpful deckhand.

In 2018 we travelled the Loop at times with a KK Whaleback that drafts 5.5 feet including traversing Canal Lake on the Trent-Severn. Canal Lake is 6 feet. The KK made it through successfully as did we with a 5-foot draft. Important though was that we both had keels that protects the props.

Edge800 said:

don't forget about draft. selene i think is 5' or greater not good

Click to expand...

We ran out US Navy 50ft utility around both loops and it was a snap.

The boat had a commercial grade rubber rub rail and a 15 inch midship cleat.

No problem for just us , only maint on the DD 6-71 was oil changes.

A delightful vacation.