What boat to buy

All,

About 10 years ago, our family of 4 spent a few years cruising around the Caribbean on a 54ft steel sailboat.
Now my wife and I are looking towards retirement (in a few years) and another boating adventure. The plan is to cruise the San Juan and Gulf Islands for a while then move north up the inside passage. Perhaps spending a few years exploring. This time we are thinking about a power boat. The Tollycraft boats have strong following in this area and seem to have held up well. They also are affordable and seem to suffer from a relatively small number of maladies that old boats tend to have.
My first thought was to get a Tollycraft 26. They are heavy for their size but trailerable and generally have a single V8 engine. They have single state room and head. We could have company, but it would be cozy.
The other option would be to step up a size or two to the Tollycraft 34 tri-cabin. It has two enclosed cabins and two heads. It also runs two V8 engines. It would be a lot more comfortable with visitors.
We can afford either boat. The question is really which make more sense. I assume the larger boat will burn more fuel even at the same speed. I don't really have a handle on the fuel. Or even if the fuel consumption is relevant in the context of long term cruising. Maintenance on one engine would be lower. The redundancy of two engines would be nice.
I'm really just getting started with my research, but I would appreciate any thoughts or insight.

Welcome aboard. If you are going to be cruising in remote areas then twins may be nice for redundancy. They are more maintenance and will burn more fuel but if you slow down then the fuel will be reasonable. And I guarantee that you will enjoy the bigger boat and room. It will handle bad weather better and you won’t have to sell the smaller boat to buy the bigger boat...

Get up a list of your wants and desires then spend the winter checking the various web sites. Maybe take a trip to inspect and talk with the owners, of the top 5. Get everything ready for the spring surveys.

When we first started shopping I was in love with the Tolly's. I still am, the 37 Sedan is probably one of my all time local favorites followed by the 34 Tri-cabin. But they command a high price in this area.

Are you set on a trailer able boat?

For spending that much time on a boat I would want something bigger than the 26 for sure. If I had the $ and had to have a Tolly I would look at the 37 Sedan with diesels.
Your going to need the room anyhow.
And if you don't have to have a tolly there are a lot of CHB's around if your into the tri-cabin style. But do your research as some are just floating beauty bark planters.

Also a word of advice if your looking for a home dock in the PNW, get on a list now, or buy a boat with a transferable slip!

A little light reading that helped us out along the way.

http://www.trawlerforum.com/forums/s3/boat-search-101-a-14905.html

Comodave, OldDan, Ron

Thanks for the replies. We really would like to get just one boat and stick with it, as apposed to trading up. The trailerable boat would allow us to pull the boat in the winter for maintenance. It would allow us to drop the boat in the water closer to new cruising areas for the summer, before we go full time. There are also tax advantages, because Oregon has no boat tax. We could cruse Washington and Canada for a few months each year without paying the import tax. With a larger boat we would need to make the trip back down the coast and up the Columbia at the end of each season, or pay the tax. Not a major problem either way, just another consideration.
We do need to look at more boats in person to gain a better understanding. We'll look at local boats and make a trip or two to Washington this winter. We have friends in Seattle that need visiting anyway .
In Portland, there are docks available if you are willing to drive further from town. The closer to PDX the higher the cost and the harder to find. Find a slip for the sailboat was a trick, 54' and 16.5 wide limited our choices.
I'll look at the 37's. It's hard to wrap my brain around a boat that large. Power boats are a lot bigger for a given length. Although in some ways easier to handle? Our sailboat had no rudder control below about 2 knots. Just prop walk. I have no experience with twins, but they would seem to make docking easier.

Had a 26 Tolly back in the early 80's. A real bugger to back down with that single engine. Figure about 10 GPH if cruising about 14 knots. The 37 sedan is my favorite also and you can find them with diesels.

I have a Tollycraft 34 Sundeck which is a later version of the 34 tricabin. We have twin gas engines which the Flo Scan says burn about 8 gallons an hour at hull speed. The cost of fuel is a relatively small part of total cost for the boat in a year. As for the Tollycraft brand we have been pretty happy with the quality and the sea keeping ability. Getting caught out in a squall that blew up to some wild winds did not bother the boat at all.

The 37 is a nice boat and I would actually like one myself, but with a kid along and any guests the 34 tri cabin style cannot be beat. As to your thoughts about size of boat, this is our first boat and size has turned out to be a non issue. I wanted a smaller first boat, but the wife wanted the accommodations and guess who won. We paid a training captain to take us out for an extended period of training and the bigger boat was not a problem.

You can pick up a boat with gas engines for not alot of money so you could buy and not have a ton of cash tied up in the initial purchase, though the ongoing costs can add up.

Russell Clifton said:

Had a 26 Tolly back in the early 80's. A real bugger to back down with that single engine. Figure about 10 GPH if cruising about 14 knots. The 37 sedan is my favorite also and you can find them with diesels.

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I too had problems with backing down with a single engine trawler UNTIL, somewhere in these forums, I read, shift your rudder to port approx 30 degrees and go slow.
Tried it, backed down straight as an arrow. Increase speed a bit and your stern backs to port.
Try it, you'll like it!!

I impressed myself and the other guy with me.
Of course, no wind, no tidal action of note, no river current.
Once you realize you can actually back the boat back straight, you can make adjustments and allowances for the 3 above variables.

OldDan1943 said:

I too had problems with backing down with a single engine trawler UNTIL, somewhere in these forums, I read, shift your rudder to port approx 30 degrees and go slow.
Tried it, backed down straight as an arrow. Increase speed a bit and your stern backs to port.
Try it, you'll like it!!

I impressed myself and the other guy with me.
Of course, no wind, no tidal action of note, no river current.
Once you realize you can actually back the boat back straight, you can make adjustments and allowances for the 3 above variables.

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full keel makes a huge difference in a single screw vsl backing down.. I don't think the Tollycraft singles were full length keel...Anybody?

Tollycraft makes a nice boat, but I would not

conclude that they are better than any other brand with similar manufacturing processes. The 34 sundeck I looked at leaked like a sieve and to have nearly every interior wall covering replaced. The bridge coring also had issues where the trim screwed in. While the stringers are not wood cored, the engine mounts had ripped free on the port motor. I say these things for one reason. NEVER let your guard down during your search. Never assume a boat will be anything more or less than what a qualified surveyor says it is based on a thorough evaluation. The Tolly has a very flat bottom with I think the delta conic chine. I thought the sundeck was a tad top heavy or prone to rolling. If you have time, don't compromise, get what you want. Every boat in some way represents a comprise, but know what you must have and get it. My question is do you know what you must have? Good luck and make it fun. Bill

Thanks everyone for your input. Very helpful.

You know the saying about boating: "When you go on a power boat, you are going somewhere. When you are on a sailboat, you are already there."

I'm giving you my bias so you have another perspective you may reflect on and accept or reject. I've done a lot of sailing in Washington state and lower coastal BC. As I age, I don't want to muck about with lines in a substantial wind and I no longer want to be "already there."

Much of the trawler philosophy, the classic trawlers is more the go slow and get there. And 8 knots in a trawler is faster than 8 knots in a sailboat. But sometimes I want to get part of the way faster to my destination to knock off some of the miles before I slow down and smell the roses (or kelp).

By going somewhere faster I can get to further locations and see more things. I don't always want to go fast, but I don't always want to go slow either. If you are looking at trailerable boats, check out the Ranger Tug and Cutwater brand, or Back Coves (made in Maine). I will just link you to two videos but realize these three brands and the like are capable of slow and fast.

So the question for you is, do you want to go slow or fast, or both?

Express Cruiser style - Cutwater:


Ranger Tug:

A legitimate thread, so I apologize for the tongue cheek joking, but a number of years ago, I read this response in a forum and it made me laugh.

"Asking what kind of boat one should buy, is like asking what kind of spouse one should marry."

This big boat/slow boat question has an enormous element that’s usually left out.

Basically there’s two kinds of boaters.
Those that like boating because running the boat is wonderful and those that go boating because the destination is wonderful.
So if your’e still working knowing if you’re a destination person or an underway person the question of whether or not to get a fast or slow boat should be obvious.

I’m an underway person and my boat goes 6 knots. Boat before that went about 7.5 knots. I am retired but have cruised to Alaska (and back) twice. When you’re retired you can do both destination and underway boating but before it’s mostly underway boating. The trick for those still working is to learn how to enjoy being underway.

Are you sure you want/need to accommodate guests? You might want to explore some of the discussions on TF around this issue. We decided that while it would be nice to have room for guests, it wasn't that high on our list of priorities. So we went with a smaller, quicker, shallower draft boat.

Since we decided go cruising again I've been thinking about the slow vs fast question. The Caribbean was almost always 8 by 8 seas. Not a lot of fun to be on motoring without sails and somehow the wind was always on the nose. As a result we were mostly destination cruisers spending a few weeks in each harbor.
With the promise of more protected waters of the inside passage, I think we would spend more time exploring and enjoying the coastline. I do however, like the idea of being able to pour the coals to it and cover some ground when needed. So a planing hull with enough power is appealing.
We really like the Nordic Tug and it's ilk. They seem suited well to our mission. Their only down side is cost. While we could afford one, I like the idea of a cheaper boat limiting the amount you can loose when you sell. I'm not really looking for another project, but I'm comfortable maintaining anything on an older boat. It wouldn't put me off to buy a boat with high time engines knowing I would need to overhaul them soon.
I really appreciate all your musings, I realize it's an open ended question, but there is a lot to consider and many or all of you have more experience with this type of boating than I do.

You are thinking about a lot of the same stuff we considered. We've also been concerned with the increasing numbers of boaters. The east has apparently long dealt with crowded waterways and anchorages. Things are getting more crowded in the PNW. I think this makes the slow vs fast question more complicated. You've got to anchor, moor, or dock somewhere. Depending on the kind of boating experience you want, having the option to get more easily to more places might be an advantage. That's one reason we went with a trailerable and quicker boat. We also border on being minimalists. So that made it easier to go smaller.

Useful to start with a list of features you must have/want/nice to have... and then find a boat that gives you those. In many cases, those features will be more important than fuel economy.

A 34' boat will feel "large" for about 2 weeks.

-Chris

ranger42c said:

Useful to start with a list of features you must have/want/nice to have... and then find a boat that gives you those. In many cases, those features will be more important than fuel economy.

A 34' boat will feel "large" for about 2 weeks.

-Chris

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and a 46 allows for more unnecessary stuff..... then it begins to feel small.
Gotta a second stateroom? Yea, that become the attic for parts and tools and and and and a place to hang YOUR clothes after wife or mate takes over the stateroom closet. Go ahead and laugh. Maybe not today or tomorrow but one day soon....

Maravida said:

Since we decided go cruising again I've been thinking about the slow vs fast question. The Caribbean was almost always 8 by 8 seas. Not a lot of fun to be on motoring without sails and somehow the wind was always on the nose. As a result we were mostly destination cruisers spending a few weeks in each harbor.
With the promise of more protected waters of the inside passage, I think we would spend more time exploring and enjoying the coastline. I do however, like the idea of being able to pour the coals to it and cover some ground when needed. So a planing hull with enough power is appealing.
We really like the Nordic Tug and it's ilk. They seem suited well to our mission. Their only down side is cost. While we could afford one, I like the idea of a cheaper boat limiting the amount you can loose when you sell. I'm not really looking for another project, but I'm comfortable maintaining anything on an older boat. It wouldn't put me off to buy a boat with high time engines knowing I would need to overhaul them soon.
I really appreciate all your musings, I realize it's an open ended question, but there is a lot to consider and many or all of you have more experience with this type of boating than I do.

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My wife and I have been watching many of the 32 NT's that are used and for sale before and after we purchased ours. Many of them have been for sale for a long time, some for a couple of years so I wouldn't be afraid to make a lower but reasonable offer on one. We did and we believe we ended up with a very good deal. Of course ours was needing some TLC but after the blood and sweat we put into ours I believe we could sell ours after enjoying it for awhile and come out at least even.

We have a bayliner 32 and think it is the perfect northwest boat For the Money
Twin diesels great layout

Particularly for the PNW, and in addition to the many thoughts in the thread, I would add the following to your list. This will be applicable to any size boat.

1. Large windows and pleasant indoor space with views and light for rainy and/or cold weather.

2. Good heat, preferably something with low power draw for overnight anchorage use. Diesel forced air would be my choice. Easy retrofit to an otherwise great boat. We have been in the PNW for 5 seasons, and we use heat all year.

3. A place to have a dinghy positioned for very handy use. Easy to use means easy to anchor, easy to go ashore, easy to explore...need I say more?

I agree completely with the comment in favor of a 32 Bayliner. Great space, redundant diesel power (some gas out there), covered aft deck available and easy to enclose, great bang for the buck.

Best Wishes

Buy a bigger boat. I don’t know how it happens but they seem to shrink over time.

Donna said:

Buy a bigger boat. I don’t know how it happens but they seem to shrink over time.

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A lot of things shrink when they get wet.

I hadn't really thought about the Bayliner 32s. I'll look at those.

Thanks

ssobol said:

A lot of things shrink when they get wet.

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and old

bcarli said:

We have a bayliner 32 and think it is the perfect northwest boat For the Money
Twin diesels great layout

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We looked at a lot of Bayliner's when we first started looking. The wife loved the layout and price. I grew up 15 miles from the factory and know a lot of people that helped build them. They are a PNW classic in many regards. The problems I had with them was resale and care, you will see around 50 of them for sale at any one time. From boat house kept to run down and ready for the dumpster. When your ready to sell yours what's going to set it apart from the other 49? In my mind it had to be by price or condition. If your in the middle of the pack your going to be sitting on it for a year or more trying to sell it. We watched the local market for about 2 years and I can tell you there are still a few that I looked at 3 years ago still for sale. Our plan was to get into a boat in the under 50k range and around 35-40', use it for a few years and if we loved it we would upgrade, if we hated it we would sell it.

My other concern was the use of the boat, most in the PNW were at a very good price point, so good it invited a lot of people to the water that should have never been on the water. If you really start to look at the Bayliner boats here you will see many with major damage repaired from docks to grounding. They also suffered from very little maintenance as most did not understand what the true cost of a boat was. Don't get me wrong, there are nice ones out there at a good price, and many other makes have the same issues. It just seems more prevalent here in the PNW.


With all that said, I still love the 3888 with the extended transom hard top.
With an extra diesel heater makes it a classic PNW all around boat.

My Grandpa (commercial fisherman) use to say.
"You take all the maintenance problems with a house, and then add in all the maintenance problems of a car, mash them together and you get a boat."

Whenever people ask me about buying a boat (a lot of people have as I have been into boats for 40 plus years) I tell them there are really only three questions.
How much do you have to spend
What are you going to do with it
Where do you want it


Then once you find a few boats that fit your plans start looking at condition and maintenance. Our Bayliner 32 was a Canadian boat and cost us $34,500 US. It had upgrades but also I had to fix the windlass, the heater and the radar...I would not look at a Bayliner 32 without the back deck cover. That is the most important part of the boat for us...For the price I think they are a great buy and we still like the boat four years after we bought it. I would not buy small because you are nervous about the docking etc. You will learn how to handle your boat no matter what size it is. We have owned 5 sailboats and one other powerboat.
the search is part of the fun...enjoy

RonR

Thanks for your thoughts. I understand the difficulty of selling. Try selling a 54' steel sailboat from 1986. It was that experience that taught me that you shouldn't have more into a boat than you are willing to loose. From one perspective that makes the Bayliners very attractive. For about the same functionality you can have a $100K less at risk than say a Ranger Tug. I realize that the purchase price of a boat is just the ante, and that the real costs are the ongoing operation, storage, and maintenance.
We've cruised full time for several years in the past, so we have a better idea on how much space we can live in, although that was on a sailboat and in a warm climate.

Bcarli
Docking does make me nervous, but I saw an interview with Dennis Conner after finishing some race like Sydney to Hobart saying the scariest part was docking the boat. Made me feel a lot better. Our 54' sailboat was a long keep with a fixed skeg and rudder well back from the prop. No bow thruster. It was a handful to dock if there was wind or current to contend with. I may be delusional, but I'm thinking most twins will be easier than that.

We are heading up to the Puget Sound area to look at some boats this weekend. We should be able to get a good overview. Fun

Maravida,
Based on past experience (which may or may not predict the future), Nordic Tugs tend to hold their value well (as you have found them to be expensive in the used market). If you are feeling that you are wanting to buy "the boat" once and not "upgrade or upsize" in the future, then I advise you not to rule them out because of purchase price (if you can afford it as you stated). They are great boats for the PNW, are very comfortable, handle weather well, and have well earned reputation for being well built. For example, every time my electrician comes aboard he states: "this is how a boat should be wired, but not many are".
As you know, NT's are not really trailerable. However, I do know of one owner who had his NT 37 transported by land from the Portland area to Olympia (I think, anyway somewhere in Puget Sound) each year. Expensive but doable. American Tugs are nice too and very similar in alot of ways.
I agree with Irene about those aspects of a boat for the PNW. On my Tug, I have my dinghy on the swim grid. It does not block getting ashore on the grid, and I can launch or retrieve the dinghy in minutes!
I also agree with the "list idea". Make 3. One of must haves, one of "nice to have" but not essential, and one of "do not want". You and the Wife should make separately and then compare, and compromise, but first, figure out how you want to use this boat (eg. get there fast, or poke around, lots of guests or only very occasionally, etc.).

My advice, don't buy a "project boat" unless your enjoyment comes from "working on boats" or you have "bags of money" to spend on it.

Good luck with your search