Perkins t6.354m NEED HELP! Greenhorn Captain

to answer you FF about the temps where the boat was at. I went up one time and there was ice, i know that last month there was snow up there and now its started to warm up to the mid 40s.

Adding fuel antigel won't do any harm but as far as helping you it is a waste of time. Diesel will not gel at the temps you are experiencing. I live further north than you and many years , including this, there has been ice and fuel gelling has never been a problem.

No matter, if the engine is in good shape and the starter AND batteries AND wiring are good the engine will start.

I realize you may have a starter problem but when you get it back check the voltage at BOTH the batteries and at the starter motor contacts. You should see a minimum of ~ 10-10.5V under cranking conditions. If lower then you have a problem with the starter circuit or the batteries.
Check and post what you see and maybe we can help.

starter was tested and is dragging from what i was told. It is not spinning very fast at all. Im looking for a rebuilt or new starter now and im seeing prices of $400 here in town. Waiting to hear back from north harbor diesel. however the starter im looking for seems to be obselete.

Ive found some online that are in the $200 range but im nervous that if i order one from the net that it wont last long. I'll pay $400 - $500 or so but I want something that works. I would just like it to be in the $200-$300 range.

C Letric
The batteries were checked and they are putting out 11v. The first time i started to get this issue, the batteries were fully charged by budget battieries.

I'm also convinced the cold has nothing more to do with the starting issues. Just kinda bummer when I started the engine over perfectly and it ran perfect when i bought it in the late summer and now in the winter it doesnt want to go. Im hoping the problem is fixed with a starter. At least i know what the issue is. To add to this, My mechanic said my wires all look good.


anybody have experience with ordering any cheap starters from the internet?? or better for me to go local? Ebay shows some that are less than $200 but ofcourse im worried about it.

As long as your starter isn't shorted out or otherwise damaged, take it and the solenoid to a qualified repair shop and have them serviced and rebuilt if necessary. It's probably a Delco Remy 35 MT type 175. The rebuild parts are still available the last time I looked?

Are you saying your battery meter is showing 11 volts while cranking the engine over? If your batteries, after charging, are floating at 11 volts with no load on them, they are probably in need of replacement. One 4-D or 8-D battery is sufficent to start a 6.354.
LB

Greetings,
When I had problems with a Lehman starter, a local starter/alternator shop was able to rebuild it with Ford tractor parts. I don't know if there is a Perkins equivalent solution. Worth a shot. Borrow a battery load tester to check the condition of your batteries. Similar to:

Edelweiss said:

One 4-D or 8-D battery is sufficent to start a 6.354. LB

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Actually, my 6354's have been starting for years on a small automotive size (group 35?) battery. I'm set up so I can parallel the two start batteries, but I've never needed to do that. Also, I second the idea of getting the old starter rebuilt. Unless the windings are shorted, I can't imagine why it can't be fixed.......Arctic Traveller

I agree, take it to a starter/alternator rebuild shop.

When you get the starter back, rebuilt or new, and it cranks well then you are up and away and good.

However, if there is still trouble and the starter seems to be slow do the voltage drop test both at the batteries and at the starter terminals.

That is the best way to find out if the problem lies in the cableing, the batteries, or the connections.

If you haven't done it yet then, while the starter is out, go through ALL the connections and clean the terminals and lugs and make sure they are all tight. Put some Nev R Seez or some Noalox on the contact surfaces. It will stop or radicallly slow future corrosion. Don't forget the negative side of the circuit.

By the way, when you said 11V where and when was that? If that was at rest, at the batteries, that's poor and may be undercharged or bad battery. If that was while cranking that's good but it makes a difference when measured. Was it while cranking?

okay, i'll search for a repair shop to rebuild it, sounds like it would be much cheaper?? so far this is what i found online DELCO 1109962 THRU 1113639 ALTERNATORS AND STARTERS BY OEM #

which is the best price unless i go to ebay.

As far as the batteries go, what im hearing now is making it hard to swallow.

yes the 11v were without a load on the batteries. Ive got an 8-D with 1300 cold cranking amps and a marine battery that you would see at walmart. Not sure the specs on it. Before ( in november 2011) i had the 8-D charged and checked. so i was hoping it was still good. also my mech took a screwdriver on the solenoid and slid it against the contacts to show that there was electricity getting to the starter.

im not sure if that means anything about the batteries or not but im sure the starter is bad right now. ill pray that the 8-D is good for now. I will definately test the batteries completely the next time i can get up there. How many volts should the batteries put out??

Should be Delco Remy 35MT model 1113695, This number may have been superseded over the years. But check with a shop that rebuilds alternators and starters they will have the latest. Check the tag on your starter.

If your batteries are at 11 volts at rest, then you have at least one bad cell and it will probably not start your engine. You need to get a new battery.

alright, ill look for new batteries too.

also there is no tag on the starter. 1113639 was groved into the side along with 12 volt and some initals "CW JR"

if i grabbed the battery, couldn't i get the cells checked again?

11.7 volts on an open circuit test(ie measuring charge at the two terminals) is zero charge (source Ed Sherman "Powerboaters Guide to Electrical Systems"). Try fully recharging (if you can),wait an hour, test each cell with a hydrometer,cheap, readily available at marine and auto stores, easy to use,should come with instructions.Every cell must test ok or it`s no good.
Your batteries at 11v may be beyond saving. If your boat usage is occasional consider some solar charging for good maintenance and longer battery life.
BruceK

BruceK said:

11.7 volts on an open circuit test(ie measuring charge at the two terminals) is zero charge (source Ed Sherman "Powerboaters Guide to Electrical Systems"). Try fully recharging (if you can),wait an hour, test each cell with a hydrometer,cheap, readily available at marine and auto stores, easy to use,should come with instructions.Every cell must test ok or it`s no good.
Your batteries at 11v may be beyond saving. If your boat usage is occasional consider some solar charging for good maintenance and longer battery life.
BruceK

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ouch. alright. i wish i grabbed the battery before i left... tomorrow im going to check out more on the starter and go from there. i cant get back to the boat for a bit. atleast a week i think. Is there anyway that the starter could have drained the battery fast because of how many times i attempted to turn it over?

"Is there anyway that the starter could have drained the battery fast because of how many times i attempted to turn it over?"

Yes,quite possibly, especially if it is not getting recharged at all. That`s why your first step is to recharge it fully,if it will take it. A full battery is 12.6v and up, that`s after you let it rest following charging.
My last boat had a Perkins T6354,turbo plus intercooler,great strong engine, started instantly. Unless you are sure the starter is defective,I`d suggest resolving the battery issue before reconditioning it. BruceK

"Is there anyway that the starter could have drained the battery fast because of how many times i attempted to turn it over?"

No ,not really as a starter is usually many hundreds of amps , and when cranking gets so slow as to be meaningless , most folks will get off the start button.

A real start batt will save it self by the bubbles on the plates stopping heavy current flow if over cranked. Deep cycle may not.

A real dead batt comes from a small circuit being left on , or from internal shorts that drain it internally , old age..

FF

Greetings,
If the battery is "weak", it may read 12.6 volts after a charge but will quickly drain if put under even a short load. I agree with Mr. Bruce K. Check the battery condition before putting the blame on the starter as well as Mr. clectrics suggestion of checking ALL connections and cables. Do the easy and cheap stuff first.

CaptSoterio said:

yes the 11v were without a load on the batteries.

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11V no load means the battery is DEAD. If it was on a charger over night before you took the reading, it's clearly shot. If it sat for a few weeks or months with out being on a charger, it's possible it can be charged up again, but sitting dead is the quickest way to kill a battery. You could try taking the battery out of your car just for testing purposes, assuming it's of a reasonable size. It's possible you starter is OK if you were trying to crank the engine with a battery at 11 volts, so that's the first thing I'd try.

Don't be too disappointed a about having to spend a little money on your boat, it's just the beginning and the cost of a battery is pretty minor. If you learn to repair things your self, you will save a ton of money over the life of the boat. Get yourself a copy of Nigel Caulder's Mechanical and Electrical systems book. The sooner you do that, the sooner you will start being able to fix your own boat. There are specific instructions in the book on how to trouble shoot your starting system........Arctic Traveller

CaptSoterio said:

alright, ill look for new batteries too.

also there is no tag on the starter. 1113639 was groved into the side along with 12 volt and some initals "CW JR"

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Delco model 1113639 is a 35MT and is pretty close to a 3695 35 MT and is probably correct.
Since you already have it out take the starter and the solenoid to a shop and have them checked. It's a good starter and they are usually rock solid, unless they are shorted. Could be just the solenoid, which is the "Achilles heel" But the good news is they are easy to rebuild.

Put your money into a new battery and you should be good to go.

Larry B

bad news for me.. took the starter and solenoid to local shop and the guy didnt want to tell me squat without getting some money in return. i asked him questions and he just kept saying "well either way it doesnt really matter." Ill just say that it was a bad experience and recieved no help. I'll have to look around for somewhere else.

He said it would cost at most $344 to rebuild the starter depending on how many parts are bad but ofcourse he wouldnt tell me that.

Near the end of the month is when ill be back into some money which is when i will be able to do something. for now im stuck. 8-D's are about 175 if you are willing to trade your dead battery. not bad i guess.

Denso makes a replacement starter for that motor. It's a gear reduction starter that takes a lot less amperage to start. If you keep bumping a starter with a low battery the disc in the solonoid can arc and stick to the two posts and it melts the cables. That would only be the positive cables not the ground. Mine starts just fine on a group 27 battery. I think the starter is around 250 new.

dsharp said:

Denso makes a replacement starter for that motor. It's a gear reduction starter that takes a lot less amperage to start. If you keep bumping a starter with a low battery the disc in the solonoid can arc and stick to the two posts and it melts the cables. That would only be the positive cables not the ground. Mine starts just fine on a group 27 battery. I think the starter is around 250 new.

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Sounds like what happened. Do you know the part number for the starter that your talking about.

Also i have a new update to this. I emailed the previous owner, he already got back to me but doesnt seem like ill hear much back from him tonight. He had told me that two years ago he had the starter rebuilt.

Is this more reasons to point to the battery?

after researching and more researching, its not that i dont believe you guys but i watched how the starter turned and it was slow. I think that due to bad battery connections to the starter, the starter is now fried. After its opened up that will confirm it im sure. of course there is something wrong with the battery also however i think it just needs to be recharged. i guess i will see when it happens.


In the end, It sounds like it could be either the starter or the battery. the only thing that bugs me is how i saw how slow the starter spun after being bench tested.

Those AC Delco starters can get wanky fast. Especially after repeated high-heat cycles. If the starter ever "hangs" or stops during starting attempts, the current does NOT stop flowing, but is converted directly into heat. The same heat that is cooking your starter is cooking your connectors, destroying your insulation on the wires, thus, adding corrosion and more wire resistance.

I will share that I had the same problem as you. I pulled the starter and took it to a starter/alternator shop in New Bern, NC. Two of the six brushed had failed and he completely rebuilt the starter for less than $100. (Later we DID find out he left a thrust bushing off and the starter would stick while starting so it cost us another rebuild job in Wilmington, NC to get it fixed.) After the ordeal, we purchased a gear reduction starter as a backup. It will eventually be installed as the primary when time allows. It was about $275 brand new.

Now, saying that, over the past few weeks, I have been upgrading the DC charging system. One of the big projects was to replace the old, crappy, cheap, POS, poorly installed lugs on the battery and starter wires. I purchased a nice crimping tool and Quick Cable Magna lugs from Grainger. Even after the starter rebuild (about a year ago), turning the key for us STILL caused us a lot of anxiety as Dr. Perky (yes, our engine has a name) would strain to get turned up. However, after this past weekend's completion of the wiring upgrade, I have never heard her start more quickly and more strongly.

I hope this helps.

Tom-

Nippondenso Industrial Starters you have to pay attention to the pinion teeth and rotation. If you have the numbers to the old starter you should be able to match. The first thing you want to look at are your cables and terminals. The clamp on battery terminals are worthless. The previous poster gave you very good advice. I was enslaved at birth into a boatyard and it's usually the cables or that's where it starts. Hard to say without looking but try to see if it looks like the inside of the starter has been hot. I've had pretty good luck with the gear reduction starters even though they look kind of whimpy at first. The kw rating is the horsepower.

Any cheap digital Volt meter , $8,00 at Northern freight.hooked to the starter and ground will give great information .

12.6 to 12.8 fine full batt before cranking .

Under 9.5 or so while cranking there is a problem.

13.8 to 14.4 after start the charge system is working.

Easiest test is to crank for 15/30 seconds and FEEL gently the cable and all its attachments.

The starter should barely be warm, any/every Hot Spots is one of your problems.

8D is a size , like size 9w shoes.

It does not tell if the battery is a start batt or a deep cycle batt for house service , but NOT for starting.

Due to the weight many folks will go cheap with much lighter series 31 truck batts .

A pair or 3 in parallel will match the CCA required from an 8D and there loads lighter to hump down the dock, after a shore charge.

A pair of 8D start batts together IS the most reliable method of starting below about 40F. That is the weight of lead you need working in cold areas.

FF

**UPDATE**

starter was cleaned by my mechanic and reinstalled. engine started with only 11.5v coming from starting battery. steamed the boat for 16 hours to a closer location. new issue has presented itself, the packing from the drive shaft has now blown so i need to get it drydocked and replaced ouch

CaptSoterio said:

**UPDATE**

starter was cleaned by my mechanic and reinstalled. engine started with only 11.5v coming from starting battery. steamed the boat for 16 hours to a closer location. new issue has presented itself, the packing from the drive shaft has now blown so i need to get it drydocked and replaced ouch

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If you have a wet packing gland, you shouldn't need to haul out to replace the packing material. Take the packing nut loose slide it up the shaft a few inches, wrap an old rag or two around the shaft and press it into the shaft log enough to stop most of the water flow. Pull the old packing out of the packing nut with a bent ice pick or nail and replace it. If you haven't done this before, you may need some help as there is a right way and a wrong way of cutting and installing packing rings. Don't try to wrap the packing around the shaft three times and pressing it into the nut. It doesn't work that way!! It must be cut into rings and formed around the shaft (usually with a small hammer) and then pressed one at a time into the packing nut.

Be sure and have the packing and rags on hand before you remove the old packing.

If you have a dripless shaft log, then that may require a little more work and possibly a haulout.

Good luck
Larry B

Greetings,
Mr. Capt. Sot'. I concur with Mr. Edelweiss. Repacking the stuffing box, depending on design CAN be done in water. It's a bit traumatic given that water DOES gush in what seems to be copious amounts into your boat but as suggested, pre-planning along with properly pre cut packing rings, a good bilge pump, rags and calm approach should allow you to accomplish a re-pack. Worst case scenario, don't get hauled out, sit in the slings and proceed. If things go south, you won't sink and THEN you can be hauled.
Let us know what transpires.
Further to the dripless shaft log comment, I don't like them and I'm sure there are those that swear by them and those that swear at them. Count me in the latter group.

Did the battery revive itself during the 16 hour voyage, and if so, is it holding the charge ok? BruceK

If I missed this earlier, then please forgive me:
With my Perkins 6.354, it needs two things only. Air and Fuel. Have you pulled a high pressure fuel line or injector to make sure fuel is getting into the cylinder? If it turns over, and fuel goes in, and air goes in, then it will start.

Also, I had my starter smoke, when we were cranking the motor at length when trying to bleed the fuel system. It was water on the connection. I took it apart and applied Vaseline jelly and put it back together and no more smoke.

Hope this helps.
Woody