lithium ?
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Yes, that is the theory and in this case I think it is valid. But lithium batteries cost 5 or more times what FLA batteries cost. You do save space and weight and if that is important enough to you to spend the extra money then, well ok.
David
David
Tom.B
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LiPo batteries are really better suited and are a better investment for sailboats that cruise for extended periods. The do give you more amp-hours for your dollar in the long run, but us powerboat types really don’t see that return unless you hang on the hook for weeks and don’t want to run your main or genset.
Really!!! At 5-10 times the price of FLAs per amphour rating or 3-5 times the price of FLAs per usable amphour, they would have to last at least 15 years to match FLAs on an amphour year metric.
I have never owned a boat for 15 years, so I am unlikely to ever find out if Li batteries can last that long
.David
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Get carbon foam batteries. I switched this summer and am so far impressed. Ill know morec after this spring when we return from Florida. Look up f firefly oasis batteries.
Gordon
Gordon
OP
OP
lipets
Senior Member
they are $500 for a 116Ah battery and 75lbs 
two T-105's with 225Ah are <200 100lbs
Lithium 100Ah $650-$900 40lbs
If I had 6 T-105's ($600)I have 675 Ah at 50% discharge 340ah
300lbs
Foam I need 4 with 464Ah @ $2000 discharge 370
300lbs
Lit also 4 @ $2600 discharge about 320ah
150lbs
THe more I research this I think the Trojan T-105's are the clear winner
.
two T-105's with 225Ah are <200 100lbs
Lithium 100Ah $650-$900 40lbs
If I had 6 T-105's ($600)I have 675 Ah at 50% discharge 340ah
300lbs
Foam I need 4 with 464Ah @ $2000 discharge 370
300lbs
Lit also 4 @ $2600 discharge about 320ah
150lbs
THe more I research this I think the Trojan T-105's are the clear winner
.
twistedtree
Guru
I hate to nit pick, but on a boat you would (should) only consider LFP (LiFePO4) batteries. Other Lithium Ion variants like LiPo are too volatile to be safe on a boat where you can't easily get away from it in the event of a problem. So if you are considering Lithium-Ion batteries, only consider LFP.
Setting the economics aside, thee are two huge operational benefits to LFP on a power cruising boat.
First is that you don't need to worry about when you last brought you batteries up to full charge, and whether you really got them all the way to full charge. This is the obsession of LAx battery operation, and it just doesn't matter with LFP. So instead of always thinking about managing your battery charge level, you can just focus on boating. To me, this is a huge improvement in daily operation of the boat.
Second is that the dreaded "absorption" phase of charging is non-existant. So instead of having a 2 to 3 to 4 hr tail on charging your batteries, something that really sucks when you are at anchor, LFP batteries will accept full charge current right up until they are full.
I have LFP batteries deployed in an off-grid house as a trial in advance to putting them in my boat, and I love them. They are worth every penny. Off solar, they are fully charged much sooner each day, leaving lots of solar power to run other things during daylight. And when the generator does run, my recharge time has gone from 7 hrs down to 2:30. They run cool, don't off gas explosive hydrogen, aren't full of acid that will burn you and everything around it, and aren't full of toxic lead. And depending on how you go about, cost per usable Ah or kWh of power is as low 1.5x the cost of quality AGMs.
I don't think I'll ever use a LA house battery again.
Setting the economics aside, thee are two huge operational benefits to LFP on a power cruising boat.
First is that you don't need to worry about when you last brought you batteries up to full charge, and whether you really got them all the way to full charge. This is the obsession of LAx battery operation, and it just doesn't matter with LFP. So instead of always thinking about managing your battery charge level, you can just focus on boating. To me, this is a huge improvement in daily operation of the boat.
Second is that the dreaded "absorption" phase of charging is non-existant. So instead of having a 2 to 3 to 4 hr tail on charging your batteries, something that really sucks when you are at anchor, LFP batteries will accept full charge current right up until they are full.
I have LFP batteries deployed in an off-grid house as a trial in advance to putting them in my boat, and I love them. They are worth every penny. Off solar, they are fully charged much sooner each day, leaving lots of solar power to run other things during daylight. And when the generator does run, my recharge time has gone from 7 hrs down to 2:30. They run cool, don't off gas explosive hydrogen, aren't full of acid that will burn you and everything around it, and aren't full of toxic lead. And depending on how you go about, cost per usable Ah or kWh of power is as low 1.5x the cost of quality AGMs.
I don't think I'll ever use a LA house battery again.
OP
OP
lipets
Senior Member
the economics is against them IMO
My example $600 vs $2400-$4000
With solar on the T-105's they can last a very long time had them on an RV 7 years sold it they may still be use.
You don't mention failure of Lithium's a costly replacement if something goes wrong,
If they were less like $3-400 I would buy them and they will be in a few years
My example $600 vs $2400-$4000
With solar on the T-105's they can last a very long time had them on an RV 7 years sold it they may still be use.
You don't mention failure of Lithium's a costly replacement if something goes wrong,
If they were less like $3-400 I would buy them and they will be in a few years
twistedtree
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If the question is about the cheapest way to store power, it’s likely flooded lead acid like the T-105s that you mention.
But if you also want maintenance free batteries, and to be freed from charge monitoring and management, there is a lot of additional value in AGMs and again more is LFP. But that comes at a cost, so you need to decide what matters to you.
But if you also want maintenance free batteries, and to be freed from charge monitoring and management, there is a lot of additional value in AGMs and again more is LFP. But that comes at a cost, so you need to decide what matters to you.
catalinajack
Guru
How deep may LiFePO baterries be discharged without reducing their life beyond reason?
twistedtree
Guru
Figure 80-90%, and figure on getting at least 2000 cycles out of them, and probably a good bit more. Lab testing consistently yields 2000 cycles with 100% charge/discharge. I've seen no concrete data on longer life spans because it simply takes too long. But even at 2000 cycles, that's about 6 years assuming you cycle every single day, which very, very few boats do. Even half that cycle rate I expect is uncommon. Most people using them are expecting 10-20 years.
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TT, how many amp hours of LFP batteries do you plan to carry for your house bank on your new boat?
twistedtree
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Something in the 1400ah @ 24V range. It's probably serious overkill, but without a solid understanding of the electric loads, I'd rather err on the side of too much rather than too little. And that's nameplate rating, so figure 80-90% of that is usable.
Part of the uncertainty is because I haven't finalized what batteries I'm going to use, and they come if different quanta of capacity. Plus I'm leaning towards a redundant setup with two banks, so the capacity steps are pairs of batteries.. Several vendors sell ~300Ah batteries, so a bank of 4 would be 1200 ah, and 6 would jump up to 1800ah.
twistedtree
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BTW, several people I know who have or are installing LFP are sizing to be able to run partial AC over night. That drives up the capacity required, and causes LFP systems to be bigger than what you might otherwise do with lead.
OP
OP
lipets
Senior Member
OP
OP
lipets
Senior Member
I would use the word "cheapest" indicating inferior.
They have a big market share esp in solar
THey can be maintenance free, add solar to charge and auto water fills
twistedtree
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Donsan
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It could be depending on what conditions and scenario you use. In TT's case, the standard genny is 27.5kW. It probably burns 1.5gph at half load or say $4.50/hr for fuel. That is over $100/day for fuel. LFP makes a lot more sense to him than it does for say an 8kW genny that you might have on your boat.
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My cell phone is a year and a half old and its showing 85% of its original capacity and its fully charged. EV proponents (having had one, a BMW, I’m not one) say 600 charges before they are worn out. Also, you need a special charger or a solar setup for a boat battery system. I think there is a lot of voodoo and misinformation about Lithium batteries still and I would need to be convinced to change from my gang of FLAs.
ksanders
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I recently cruised the net looking at lithium batteries, and was drawn to the ones used in the new Nordhavn 41. Do not remember the brand right now.
Then I went to that manufacturers web site and saw that a 400 amp hour bank would cost something like $5,000.
That wasn’t the scary part. The scary part to me was the sophisticated electronics and the very propritary equipment needed to protect them from what appeared to me to be a risk of burning up.
Then I thought of my 8 year old 800+ amp hour bank of L16HC batteries coupled to my Xantrex inverter/charger, and backed up by a spare charger that cost me another $350.
Replacing that bank will cost me something less than $1500 depending on the brand I choose. Yes I will need to actually look at them every couple of months and add water to them if full time cruising on the hook. Adding water takes me all of less than a hour, and it gives me an excuse to look around the lazarette a bit at the same time.
In terms of reliability, I have 8 years on my house bank right now. It will be soon replaced. If while cruising in a remote area I need to replace a cell, then I believe that I will be able to find more L16 batteries as they are pretty common in the industrial world.
I am ALL for technology on my boat, but to me that technology needs to make operational sense. To me adding complexity to save a bit of weight and space is not something I am interested in doing. FLA batteries are a mature technology in a very high risk area.
For now, I’ll stick with my FLA bank. Other technologies will mature over time and become viable, but in my opinion they still have a ways to go.
For some yes, but not for me.
Then I went to that manufacturers web site and saw that a 400 amp hour bank would cost something like $5,000.
That wasn’t the scary part. The scary part to me was the sophisticated electronics and the very propritary equipment needed to protect them from what appeared to me to be a risk of burning up.
Then I thought of my 8 year old 800+ amp hour bank of L16HC batteries coupled to my Xantrex inverter/charger, and backed up by a spare charger that cost me another $350.
Replacing that bank will cost me something less than $1500 depending on the brand I choose. Yes I will need to actually look at them every couple of months and add water to them if full time cruising on the hook. Adding water takes me all of less than a hour, and it gives me an excuse to look around the lazarette a bit at the same time.
In terms of reliability, I have 8 years on my house bank right now. It will be soon replaced. If while cruising in a remote area I need to replace a cell, then I believe that I will be able to find more L16 batteries as they are pretty common in the industrial world.
I am ALL for technology on my boat, but to me that technology needs to make operational sense. To me adding complexity to save a bit of weight and space is not something I am interested in doing. FLA batteries are a mature technology in a very high risk area.
For now, I’ll stick with my FLA bank. Other technologies will mature over time and become viable, but in my opinion they still have a ways to go.
For some yes, but not for me.
stevemitchell
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I ended up converting my FLA house bank to LiFePO4 recently for a few reasons, all of which have been mentioned. Those include: space, weight, ease of maintenance, and most importantly to me, charge time.
I've written the whole thing up at Victron + Wakespeed + Battle Born power system and still have a follow on article left to finish on the Wakespeed stuff alone.
I don't expect these batteries to last 10+ years, but I do expect 2000+ cycles out of them without much degradation. That is still a long time for my use case - I would need to have fairly deep discharges for 200 days out of each year before I reached 2000, and that would be 10 years total.
I've had LiFePO4 and Firefly battery banks before on a different boat (see LiFePO4 power design, installing and using the LiFePO4 bank, and Firefly power system upgrade) and had plenty of time to love/hate parts of those systems too.
The Fireflys were great, but they only come in two sizes which limits many installs, including the boat I have now. They are even more sensitive IMHO to charging profiles than most drop-in LiFePO4 banks, so you have to make sure you have updated equipment everywhere, including generator/alternator/etc. They also were hard to get for a couple of years, and their manufacturing is in a different place than the original sets I had.
The standard LiFePO4 solutions from Victron and other major manufacturers can be quite a pain when it comes to all of the extra equipment you have to have around them, which you can see a part of in the article on my previous sailboat LiFePO4 setup. The sheer complexity of devices involved just for power really bothered me for long term use, let alone troubleshooting.
The drop in stuff I'm using now doesn't require that, but it has its own pros/cons, just like FLA, Firefly, or anything else. Reduced overall charge rates per battery, BMS cutoff issues, etc.
For me, it was worth spending the extra money to have the charging rate capabilities I have now. I can charge my entire house bank in 2 hours or less on engine - no generator required. I can go 2+ days on battery now, versus barely one with FLA, without charging at all. I also do not have to worry anywhere near as much about FLA discharge levels, water/electrolyte, and power in general, as we have a more robust system in my opinion.
I have talked to so many people about the benefits and problems with varying types of batteries and power systems - there is no real right answer or major reason to consider LiFePO4 over Firefly over FLA. It is a mix of everything from budget, space, usage, goals, and expertise.
I've written the whole thing up at Victron + Wakespeed + Battle Born power system and still have a follow on article left to finish on the Wakespeed stuff alone.
I don't expect these batteries to last 10+ years, but I do expect 2000+ cycles out of them without much degradation. That is still a long time for my use case - I would need to have fairly deep discharges for 200 days out of each year before I reached 2000, and that would be 10 years total.
I've had LiFePO4 and Firefly battery banks before on a different boat (see LiFePO4 power design, installing and using the LiFePO4 bank, and Firefly power system upgrade) and had plenty of time to love/hate parts of those systems too.
The Fireflys were great, but they only come in two sizes which limits many installs, including the boat I have now. They are even more sensitive IMHO to charging profiles than most drop-in LiFePO4 banks, so you have to make sure you have updated equipment everywhere, including generator/alternator/etc. They also were hard to get for a couple of years, and their manufacturing is in a different place than the original sets I had.
The standard LiFePO4 solutions from Victron and other major manufacturers can be quite a pain when it comes to all of the extra equipment you have to have around them, which you can see a part of in the article on my previous sailboat LiFePO4 setup. The sheer complexity of devices involved just for power really bothered me for long term use, let alone troubleshooting.
The drop in stuff I'm using now doesn't require that, but it has its own pros/cons, just like FLA, Firefly, or anything else. Reduced overall charge rates per battery, BMS cutoff issues, etc.
For me, it was worth spending the extra money to have the charging rate capabilities I have now. I can charge my entire house bank in 2 hours or less on engine - no generator required. I can go 2+ days on battery now, versus barely one with FLA, without charging at all. I also do not have to worry anywhere near as much about FLA discharge levels, water/electrolyte, and power in general, as we have a more robust system in my opinion.
I have talked to so many people about the benefits and problems with varying types of batteries and power systems - there is no real right answer or major reason to consider LiFePO4 over Firefly over FLA. It is a mix of everything from budget, space, usage, goals, and expertise.
Gordon J
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Dome questions
After installing 900 amp hours of fire fly oasis batteries, I am curious about what you term to be their sensitivity to charge profile. I do not find them to be any more sensitive in set up then a normal AGM. Also, as you learned, they do charge faster than a normal AGM, and you can run them all the way to zero, without harming them. They advertise 4500 Cycles if only discharge to 50%. I reckon I will never have to buy batteries for this boat again.
About your lithium batteries, are they installed in the engine room. I am a bit concerned about the heat in my engine room and the coal location of my battery banks. My understanding was that lithium is even more sensitive to heat. Has that been your experience?
After installing 900 amp hours of fire fly oasis batteries, I am curious about what you term to be their sensitivity to charge profile. I do not find them to be any more sensitive in set up then a normal AGM. Also, as you learned, they do charge faster than a normal AGM, and you can run them all the way to zero, without harming them. They advertise 4500 Cycles if only discharge to 50%. I reckon I will never have to buy batteries for this boat again.
About your lithium batteries, are they installed in the engine room. I am a bit concerned about the heat in my engine room and the coal location of my battery banks. My understanding was that lithium is even more sensitive to heat. Has that been your experience?
stevemitchell
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Hmmm, I remember the charge profile for Firefly batteries being more restrictive than, say, a Lifeline AGM battery. Has that changed?
I also do not remember that it is OK to discharge them to 0% without harming them - in fact, I believe that reduces the cycle life. Perhaps you meant to say that you could discharge a Firefly and not have it completely stop working vs. a traditional LiFePO4 without a BMS, in which case you'd most likely have a broken LiFePO4 battery.
Keep in mind the batteries I'm using have BMS's on them that prevent that, and the previous system had a BMS and control circuitry to do that as well. Firefly batteries don't have this at all, and in fact, I've seen more dead Firefly or AGM batteries because owners discharge them repeatedly to 0% accidentally. It makes the case for adding some of the same BMS/control circuitry that LiFePO4 banks have to a AGM or Firefly bank to make sure this wouldn't happen.
LiFePO4 is sensitive to heat just like any other battery. The ones I use now will trip the BMS and shut down if they are 135F or hotter. Victron LiFePO4 batteries have a max operating temp of 122F. Lifeline AGM says 160F max, and Firefly says 104F! Quite surprised at that low number for Firefly - I don't remember that from the original sets I installed.
My engine room sits at about 90-100F depending on the time of year, so I have not seen any issues. In terms of longevity, I'm sure there is an impact, but only time will tell.
Gordon J
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Steve you are right, continual discharge to dead, and back will shorten their life, but won’t kill them.
I have a magnum charger and had no problems setting the charge profile as per their recommendation. I will know on a month as we head to Florida about battery sensitivity to heat. As I read their literature, I remember seeing degradation of charge, but my temperature regulated chargers account for that.
I hope.
Gordon
I have a magnum charger and had no problems setting the charge profile as per their recommendation. I will know on a month as we head to Florida about battery sensitivity to heat. As I read their literature, I remember seeing degradation of charge, but my temperature regulated chargers account for that.
I hope.
Gordon
Gordon J
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This from the Schwab site:
Firefly Oasis Highlights: Depths of Discharge to 80%-100% of rated capacity without any loss of performance. Superior Life Cycle – capable of 3X the number of deep discharge cycles than that of other lead acid batteries. Strong Performance in Extreme Cold and Heat– performance range is -20° C to 50° C.
Firefly Oasis Highlights: Depths of Discharge to 80%-100% of rated capacity without any loss of performance. Superior Life Cycle – capable of 3X the number of deep discharge cycles than that of other lead acid batteries. Strong Performance in Extreme Cold and Heat– performance range is -20° C to 50° C.
stevemitchell
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Interesting, from their main page at https://oceanplanetenergy.com/advanced-energy-storage-systems/firefly-energys-oasis-group-31/
-20°C to 50°C
(-4°F to 104°F)
So not sure if they just don't know how to convert C to F, or which one is right!
Delfin
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Yes. With 1/3rd the time to recharge compared to LA, 4 - 8 times the lifespan and higher voltage throughout the discharge cycle. Whether this is worth the extra cost depends on your cruising style and how much you like listening to and maintaining your genset.
