Documentation trouble

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You stated the registration with the State of Washington is a USCG requirement. This is not true. You may register with any state however this will invalidate your USCG documentation. You can't have both. You may retain your USCG documentation by notifying Washington State Dept. of Taxation of your boats presence in the state for personal property tax purposes. This does not constitute "state registration and you will not receive state numbers to display on the bow of the boat. You will receive some kind of decal or display to show state tax collectors, who prowl the marines and anchorages, that you are set up to the state taxes. In may opinion giving up or invalidating USCG documentation is really stupid.

Yes, state registration is totally separate. No, state registration does not invalidate your USCG documentation. Yes, you can and must have both in most states. You just don't put numbers on the boat, but it's still registered. In fact, by regulation a USCG documented boat cannot have the number on the side. Registration is separate from paying state taxes, both property and sales taxes, although it may lead to paying those taxes, but generally there's a separate registration fee.

In my opinion there is nothing stupid about giving up USCG documentation if one doesn't need it. All our boats of legal size for documentation are registered in the state of FL and USCG documented. All those too small for USCG documentation are required to have numbers on the sides. Those documented only have stickers.
 
Yes, state registration is totally separate. No, state registration does not invalidate your USCG documentation. Yes, you can and must have both in most states. You just don't put numbers on the boat, but it's still registered. In fact, by regulation a USCG documented boat cannot have the number on the side. Registration is separate from paying state taxes, both property and sales taxes, although it may lead to paying those taxes, but generally there's a separate registration fee.

In my opinion there is nothing stupid about giving up USCG documentation if one doesn't need it. All our boats of legal size for documentation are registered in the state of FL and USCG documented. All those too small for USCG documentation are required to have numbers on the sides. Those documented only have stickers.

You beat me to the reply.... :)
 
We have both CG documentation and state registration. In Michigan you still have to register the boat if it is documented. I have a state registration number. I just cannot display it since the boat is documented. I do display the year sticker to show that my registration is current.
 
A state registration will definately invalidate a USCG documentation. The USCG will not have knowledge of your state registration and doesn't care. They will keep on sending you renewal notices and you can keep on paying for renewal. But if you are ever boarded by the USCG and you are displaying state numbers and also have a USCG doc they may, or may not notify you that it is invalid.

If you are ever in an accident or serious violation some smart lawyer will find out that the USCG doc is invalid which makes it a lot easier to go after your and your boat. With documentation and a prefered ship mortgage recorded with the National Maritime Center any plaintiffs will have to pay off the mortgage first before getting a dime out of you. Most will just give up.

There are states without personal property tax but have state registration system, Hawaii for example. you can keep a documented vessel there without state registration for ever for the USCG renewal of $26 a year or you can go with state registration for a little less. You will have difficulty financing a non-USCG documented vessel if over 5GRT and you will not have the protection of the Preferred Ship Mortgage against liens.
 
You stated the registration with the State of Washington is a USCG requirement. This is not true. You may register with any state however this will invalidate your USCG documentation. You can't have both. You may retain your USCG documentation by notifying Washington State Dept. of Taxation of your boats presence in the state for personal property tax purposes. This does not constitute "state registration and you will not receive state numbers to display on the bow of the boat. You will receive some kind of decal or display to show state tax collectors, who prowl the marines and anchorages, that you are set up to the state taxes. In may opinion giving up or invalidating USCG documentation is really stupid.

We probably want to distinguish state title from state registration. Both state title and federal documentation are forms of recording ownership, so one can't use both. There has to be one definitive record.

State registration is a different thing. It merely tells the state that the boat is being operated in their waters and who the owner is. It is also an opportunity for the state to charge and collect taxes.

One interesting caveat is that federal law doesn't allow states to require the display of numbers on federally documented vessels, I assume to avoid confusion. So, federally documented vessels don't display state numbers, at least beyond whatever fine print may be on the registration sticker.

My boat is, for example, federally documented (but not state titled) and registered in FL. It has its name and hailing port on the back, meeting the federal requirement. And, it carries a state registration sticker, meeting the state requirement.
 
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A state registration will definately invalidate a USCG documentation. The USCG will not have knowledge of your state registration and doesn't care. They will keep on sending you renewal notices and you can keep on paying for renewal. But if you are ever boarded by the USCG and you are displaying state numbers and also have a USCG doc they may, or may not notify you that it is invalid.

No, once again, the registration does not invalidate USCG documentation.

If you display the numbers on a documented boat, then you are illegal. That doesn't mean your USCG documentation is invalid. It simply means you're illegally displaying state registration numbers and can be ticketed and charged for that. More likely you'll be given the opportunity to immediately remove them.

You keep confusing registration and showing the numbers. Two different things. When documented, registered vessels display stickers, not the numbers.
 
A state registration will definately invalidate a USCG documentation. The USCG will not have knowledge of your state registration and doesn't care. They will keep on sending you renewal notices and you can keep on paying for renewal. But if you are ever boarded by the USCG and you are displaying state numbers and also have a USCG doc they may, or may not notify you that it is invalid.

If you are ever in an accident or serious violation some smart lawyer will find out that the USCG doc is invalid which makes it a lot easier to go after your and your boat. With documentation and a prefered ship mortgage recorded with the National Maritime Center any plaintiffs will have to pay off the mortgage first before getting a dime out of you. Most will just give up.

There are states without personal property tax but have state registration system, Hawaii for example. you can keep a documented vessel there without state registration for ever for the USCG renewal of $26 a year or you can go with state registration for a little less. You will have difficulty financing a non-USCG documented vessel if over 5GRT and you will not have the protection of the Preferred Ship Mortgage against liens.

This is from the NVDC website.

IS A DOCUMENTED VESSEL EXEMPT FROM STATE JURISDICTION?
No, all documented vessels must comply with the laws of the state in which they are operated. The vessel's document must be shown to state law enforcement personnel upon their demand. States may require documented vessels to be registered (but not numbered) and to display state decals showing that they have complied with state requirements.

Note that it says that states may require a vessel to be registered, but not numbered. I said that Michigan assigned a number to my boat but I do not display the number just the year sticker. This is exactly what I do. Maybe I don’t need a smart lawyer...
 
Not to join the pile-on, but as others have said Promaritime is simply wrong about invalidation. I'd like to see a statute or reg on that, don't think you'll find one. As for state or federal titling though -- I've noticed that's a slippery topic, terminology-wise. My boat is state registered and I have a state title because my state requires it (like many -- most?-- other states) and our bank required it, and my land-locked insurance agent thought it was necessary. Our boat is also federally documented. Yes, the NVDC may be completely oblivious to all that state paperwork. I don't think it matters, or they care. I don't actually have a federal "title" though, at least no certificate that's titled that way. The NVDC will send you a title abstract, and they'll give you a record of ownership which functionally may be the same thing, but the certificate says "DOCUMENTATION" -- doesn't actually use the word "title" like my state title. But in the end, for recreational boats, I don't think any of this really matters. I keep the fed documentation current because we do hope to take it to Canada someday (although even there state reg seems to suffice). I keep it federally documented because it's kind of cool, it's a big-boat kind of status symbol. It's more nautical, more salty -- otherwise the whole concept is a maritime relic if your boat's going to stay in North America. Documentation is a Thurston Howell III kind of thing.

Oh, yes, forgot that too, saves me from having to clutter the bow with state numbers. Aesthetic thing.
 
Hi all,

Federal law is really clear on this one:

"A documented vessel may not be titled by a State or required to display numbers under chapter 123 of this title, and any certificate of title issued by a State for a documented vessel shall be surrendered as provided by regulations prescribed by the Secretary."

-- 46 U.S. Code § 12106
-- https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/46/12106

The reason is that, when it comes to ownership, there needs to be one, single, authoritative, definitive record. If both were allowed, and disagreed, who would the owner be?

This is different than each of registration and taxation, where each competent jurisdiction can independently require that you report something to them without conflict, e.g. register the vessel and owner, and can independently tax something without conflict, e.g. you can pay both the feds and multiple states, just like we do with income taxes, etc.

Cheers!
-Greg
 
Yes, title and registration are different things.
 
Hi all,
Federal law is really clear on this one:

"A documented vessel may not be titled by a State or required to display numbers under chapter 123 of this title, and any certificate of title issued by a State for a documented vessel shall be surrendered as provided by regulations prescribed by the Secretary."

-- 46 U.S. Code § 12106
-- https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/46/12106

Huh. Somebody should tell South Dakota. Surrendered to whom I wonder? I'll bet if I tried to surrender my state title the person at the reception desk in the Secretary's office would wonder what in the world I was doing there. I clicked on "Secretary" for further definition and got this:

(44) “Secretary” means the Secretary of the department in which the Coast Guard is operating.

Now there's a tautology. But with a little more digging, okay, apparently the CG operates under the Sec of Homeland Security, a guy named Kevin McAleenan who's been on the job a few months. I guess I'll mail my state title to him. (I don't mean to be flippant about all this -- well, yes, I guess I do) but in my life experience so far, for all the extensive forum discussions on the topic here and elsewhere, federal documentation for recreational boats that stay in North America, seems entirely cosmetic. Happens in a separate, parallel universe.
 
gkesden your are exactly right. I have been preaching this on this forum and on Cruisers forum for years, apparently to deaf ears. USCG Documentation and state registration are both proof of legal title which affect many aspects of ownership, like liability and financing to name just two. Obviously you can't have both.
 
gkesden your are exactly right. I have been preaching this on this forum and on Cruisers forum for years, apparently to deaf ears. USCG Documentation and state registration are both proof of legal title which affect many aspects of ownership, like liability and financing to name just two. Obviously you can't have both.

So in your considered opinion, all those of us who have USCG Documented boats which are registered in our states are criminals?

You're just wrong. There is nothing against state registration for a documented boat. You don't Title a documented boat, but you do register it if the state requires. You don't put on numbers, but you do use a sticker.

As to financing, it doesn't go against a registration, the lien is on the Documentation, or for a non documented boat, on the Title. There's no such thing as a lien on a registration.
 
Huh. Somebody should tell South Dakota. Surrendered to whom I wonder?

There are two common ways of surrendering a state title when federally documenting a vessel. One can surrender the state title to the NVDC when requesting federal documentation. Upon documenting your vessel, NVDC makes a report to the state letting them know the title has been preempted and rendered invalid by the federal document. Alternatively, upon receiving a federal document, one can surrender the no longer valid state title to the state according to whatever procedures they may have.

I have heard rumors that there are a small few states that have laws on the books requiring state title, without regard for federal documentation. But, those laws have the same force as an Act of Parliament requiring the speaking of the Queen's English on the streets of Paris, as the federal law is constitutionally supreme in this domain.


I'll bet if I tried to surrender my state title the person at the reception desk in the Secretary's office would wonder what in the world I was doing there.

No doubt. That is neither of the procedures accepted under the applicable law, rules, policies, procedures, and practices.

I clicked on "Secretary" for further definition and got this:

(44) “Secretary” means the Secretary of the department in which the Coast Guard is operating.

Now there's a tautology.

Where?


But with a little more digging, okay, apparently the CG operates under the Sec of Homeland Security, a guy named Kevin McAleenan who's been on the job a few months. I guess I'll mail my state title to him. (I don't mean to be flippant about all this -- well, yes, I guess I do) but in my life experience so far, for all the extensive forum discussions on the topic here and elsewhere, federal documentation for recreational boats that stay in North America, seems entirely cosmetic. Happens in a separate, parallel universe.

For some, it /is/ entirely cosmetic -- they don't like the way the state numbers look. (Others may have other good reasons, include that they just "want to", or maybe no reasons at all, and just did.)

But, in any case, one can't have it both ways -- if a vessel is federally documented it is, by law, not validly state titled.
 
Yes, a vessel can’t be documented and state titled. But registration isn’t a title. You certainly can register a vessel that is documented. When I documented a previous boat that had been state titled, I sent the title in with the initial documentation paperwork. Apparently some here can’t understand the difference between registration and title. A title is proof of ownership and registration isn’t.
 
So in your considered opinion, all those of us who have USCG Documented boats which are registered in our states are criminals?

Not sure who you are referencing here.

But, in my considered opinion, it is often lawfully required to register a federally documented vessel with one or more states.

What is never valid is a state title for a vessel that holds a valid federal document.

States can and validly do require the registration of federally documented vessels. What they can't do is to require the titling of validly federally documented vessels.

My boat is both validly federally documented and validly state registered, as was its predecessor.
 
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Not sure who you are referencing here.

But, in my considered opinion, it is often lawfully required to register a federally documented vessel with one or more states.

What isn't valid is a state title for a vessel that holds a valid federal document.

States can and validly do require the registration of federally documented vessels. What they can't do is to require the titling of validly federally documented vessels.

By boat is both validly federally documented and validly state registered, as was its predecessor.

No, I believe it was ProMaritime that was stating that you could not register a documented vessel.
 
Not sure who you are referencing here.

.

Was targeting ProMaritime as I quoted his post in my post. I try to quote, at least partially, when responding to a post. I encourage others to do so to avoid confusion. Don't quote the entire post, just the part you're responding to.
 
Was targeting ProMaritime as I quoted his post in my post. I try to quote, at least partially, when responding to a post. I encourage others to do so to avoid confusion. Don't quote the entire post, just the part you're responding to.

Hi B&B. Thanks. And sorry for my confusion. -Greg
 
No you are not criminals just mistaken because you don't understand the law. Your boat cannot be titled by state law and by USCG documentation at the same time. It is you, the taxpayer, that is "registered" with the state as being responsible for the personal property tax on the value of the boat that you own. Your state "registration" for tax purposed, if you want to call it that, has nothing to do with title to the property. If you don't believe that just try to get a loan on it or sell it to someone. Again gkesden has the right take on this. Try to understand what he has written.
 
You stated the registration with the State of Washington is a USCG requirement. This is not true. You may register with any state however this will invalidate your USCG documentation. You can't have both. You may retain your USCG documentation by notifying Washington State Dept. of Taxation of your boats presence in the state for personal property tax purposes. This does not constitute "state registration and you will not receive state numbers to display on the bow of the boat. You will receive some kind of decal or display to show state tax collectors, who prowl the marines and anchorages, that you are set up to the state taxes. In may opinion giving up or invalidating USCG documentation is really stupid.

Here is where you said that if the boat is “registered with any state however it will invalidate your USCG documentation “. That is simply not true. You can register a documented vessel, you just can’t display the numbers. I have my boat documented and registered with Michigan. But the boat is not titled with Michigan. You can’t have a boat federally documented and titled with a state. You are now changing what you are said previously. Now you are talking title instead of registered.
 
No you are not criminals just mistaken because you don't understand the law. Your boat cannot be titled by state law and by USCG documentation at the same time. It is you, the taxpayer, that is "registered" with the state as being responsible for the personal property tax on the value of the boat that you own. Your state "registration" for tax purposed, if you want to call it that, has nothing to do with title to the property. If you don't believe that just try to get a loan on it or sell it to someone. Again gkesden has the right take on this. Try to understand what he has written.

I never said anything about it being titled. I've been clear it couldn't be titled. I has to be registered. I'll call it registration because that's what it is. I use the appropriate terms and don't switch when I get caught wrong like you have. Again, registration has nothing to do with property tax either. Florida requires registration and has no property tax on boats. I fully understand. Don't try that BS with me.
 
One must follow state boat-registration and taxation laws. Documenting a recreational vessel with USCG is always an option if it is at least net five "tons," but not all states require registration of federally documented boats. Simple as that.
 
If an owner registered (titled) a boat with a state agency and affixed state ID numbers on the bow of that boat while it was USCG documented that documentation would have been invalidated. The USCG may never know this or notify the owner unless they board the vessel and find state ID numbers along with a Documentation Certificate. If an owner signed up with a state agency to pay personnel property tax on the value of that boat and did not receive state numbers to affix to the bow, but instead got a decal or sticker, it was solely for tax purposes and the USCG documentation would remain valid. USCG regulations prohibit a documented vessel from displaying state registration numbers but they do not prohibit the display of the tax sticker or decal.
 
If an owner registered (titled) a boat with a state agency and affixed state ID numbers on the bow of that boat while it was USCG documented that documentation would have been invalidated. The USCG may never know this or notify the owner unless they board the vessel and find state ID numbers along with a Documentation Certificate. If an owner signed up with a state agency to pay personnel property tax on the value of that boat and did not receive state numbers to affix to the bow, but instead got a decal or sticker, it was solely for tax purposes and the USCG documentation would remain valid. USCG regulations prohibit a documented vessel from displaying state registration numbers but they do not prohibit the display of the tax sticker or decal.

You just love inventing law. First, affixing the state numbers would not invalidate the Documentation. Documentation overrides. There would be a ticketable offense for affixing numbers to a documented boat.

Paying property taxes and registration are not connected and are typically not even within the same department.

The purpose is irrelevant. Now you're agreeing with what we've said regarding registration being legal but you're claiming you don't mean registration, you mean Title and it's about property taxes even though Florida doesn't have property taxes on boats.
 
Hey ProMaritime,

I appreciate you trying to help folks out. And, you are most certainly correct that a documented vessel shouldn't display state numbers but should do any required state paperwork, pay any necessary fees and taxes, and display a state sticker, as required. So, you've got the mechanics down pat -- and that is a lot better than some who occasionally post suggesting that state paperwork can or should be avoided for federally documented vessels!

But, what I think people are reacting to is a very narrow technical point. It is this bit: "registered (titled)".

I know it is a small point, but folks here tend to be sticklers. Call us pedantic, if you'd like. But, titling and registering aren't the same thing, and expressing an idea as "registered (titled)" suggests, at least to some, that they are.

One of my old law professors liked to say that "property isn't a thing, it is a bundle of rights and responsibilities". These rights and responsibilities are known as "title" of the property. One type of title, the "legal title", includes the rights and responsibilities of ownership, e.g. the ability to buy and sell. Another type of title, "equitable title" includes various rights of use and enjoyment retained from the legal title, e.g. access to the property. With vessels, unlike real property, the two types of title go are all part of legal title.

When buying or selling a house, ownership is conveyed by a document called a deed that transfers the title. This deed is then recorded in a record with the one proper custodian for the jurisdiction. This way, if someone wants to know who has title to a real property, they go to the one custodian, and look in the deed book.

With vessels and vehicles, there aren't really deeds, just title records or documents. These record who has title (legal and equitable, as one) to the property.

Since this type of record is important, there needs to be one custodian. In the case of vehicles, for example, they are titled by the state (except for federal vehicles, diplomatic vehicles, etc) and can only be titled in one state at a time. In the case vessels, the state is the custodian of record -- except for documented vessels, for which the federal government preempts state jurisdiction.

So, a USCG document, and a state title document or electronic record, are each documents describing who has the title of a vessel. Because there can only be one answer to this question, the title has to be recorded with the feds or the state, but not both. For certain vessels, one must record with the feds. For certain vessels, one must record with the state. For certain vessels one gets to pick. And, for certain vessels, title need not be recorded at all.

Registering is the process of entering information into an official record. It doesn't involve altering or creating that information. So, when one registers a car or vessel, one is telling the proper official about it, e.g. who owns it, their address, etc. But, one can't use the registration process to alter that information. I am who I am, I live where I live, and I own what I own. When I register a vehicle or vessel, I am simply entering whatever information is required (and/or optionally provided) by me into an official record. In many cases the information I enter won't be accepted without proof, e.g. I might not be able to register a vessel without a title, document, or proof of sale, etc.

Maintaining a record of title is critical to ensuring that the legal (and/or equitable) title holders of property can be credible determined.

Registration is critical to enabling other interests of the state, such as being able to contact an owner in the vent of emergency or liability, ensuring compliance with insurance laws, ensuring those registering are informed of critical local information, and/or collecting fees and other taxes.

As a non-vessel example, I bought my car in PA, and lived in CA for a couple of years. While in CA, I registered my car in CA -- but it remained titled in PA. Upon my return to PA a couple of years later, I reregistered it in PA, where it already happened to be titled.

As a vessel example, many "cruisers" have their vessels titled and registered in whatever area they call (or once called) their land home. And, while cruising as transients spending only brief periods in any state, that may be fine. But, if they hang out ion one state for too long (like Florida), they may need to register there, too. Unlike titling, there is no problem being registered in more than one state, so long as it is allowed (or required) by the local law.

So, I guess what I'm saying is that in normal conversations one might use words like register and title in an imprecise way, people here tend to be sticklers. They are different things. And, if one is casual about the distinction, well, that will often be observed.

Cheers!
-Greg
 
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I'm piling on now.

It's my understanding that if you're documented there are plenty of places that you have to be state registered.

They're not supposed to give you a title, however they do because they have no clue what the US Coast Guard is about and what the US Coast Guard does. New Jersey gave me something that seems like a title ,maybe it's not but just looks like one, and I told him they're not supposed to .....they really don't care.

Sending the title to the Coast Guard would probably be the proper thing but good luck with that.

When I went to register my boat the HIN number on the Coast Guard documentation was missing two letters or numbers and the state refused to register the boat. So they were out the sales tax for almost a year until the Coast Guard sent me a new documentation with the correct HIN number. I asked why the DMV would not contact the Coast Guard and they said "we don't do that."

As to saying something on formums for years .... doesn't make you right just makes you consistent. Usually if you post links that clearly explain your point it helps ... when others post links that clearly explain your point is incorrect .....that doesn't help so much.
 
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The key differentiators between Documentation and state Titles and registrations have to with transfer when selling.
If documented that is the form that constitutes transfer of ownership - not any state registration as they should be marked not transferable.
State titles on the other hand are used to transfer ownership.
If anyone has both a federal (documented boat) and a state title they would do well to get one eliminated or it could become an issue re clear title when selling... I'd hate to buy a boat and get a state title signed over only to find the seller still held the federal title via documentation.
 
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