KK Justification of High Price

dirtdoc1 · Sep 18, 2019

I've been looking at blue water trawlers for a while and understand the added cost of building a blue water trawler. But with all due respect. KK seems particularly expensive for less flash, more conservative but still attractive trawler. I understand the desire to put the money in to the build rather than flashy stuff but is the extra cost of a KK going to where it counts or is it just because of the name. I figure who better to ask than the owners of KK. I hope I didn't offend anyone. I ask about KK because I like the wine glass transom design among other things and eventually I want to cross the Pacific and work my way to Palau. My NP (which I like very much) was not designed to cross oceans.

Why did you go with KK and do you feel the higher cost was worth it? how does it handle seas, especially following seas? Will your next boat be a KK?

Thanks very much!

HiDHo · Sep 18, 2019

I love the quality built into our 32 year old KK, as boats age quality make the difference. I’d guess Krogen is still putting in a lot of quality hence the price.
I don’t know if the boats they build now like following seas, our Manatee loves a following sea.
Good Luck on your search.

tiltrider1 · Sep 18, 2019

I have had discussions about kk’s high price with other boat builders. The discussion always comes back to it costs more to give you less weight but the same strength. Not everyone thinks KK’s are a good value but everyone agrees it costs more to keep a boat light.

dirtdoc1 · Sep 18, 2019

HiDHo said:
I love the quality built into our 32 year old KK, as boats age quality make the difference. I’d guess Krogen is still putting in a lot of quality hence the price.
I don’t know if the boats they build now like following seas, our Manatee loves a following sea.
Good Luck on your search.

Your Manatee loves following seas?? It's probably, what, a 8 knot boat? And it loves following seas?! Impressive. My boat does not like following seas at all. It's so bad in following seas that I've decided to put active stabilizers on it.

That kind of info is very helpful, thanks!

HiDHo · Sep 18, 2019

I’d say the aft hull shape has something to do with it.

alfamike · Sep 18, 2019

Here is my opinion. Like Belly Buttons - everyone has one. LOL !

There are a few other Ocean Crossing boat designs out there (Nordhavn, Diesel Duck, Selene, Kadey Krogen, etc., amongst others), that are Full Displacement Ballasted Ocean Crossing Designs -- And they all command a premium price over a typical semi-displacement or plaining hull boat like that nice & good looking North Pacific 45 you have.

I can tell you from personal experience of over 50 years of Open Ocean boating & being a Coast Guard licensed 100 ton captain for 30 years, that it is worth every penny when you life is on the line.

I was in the Farallon Patrol out of Brisbane Marina near you for a long time & we took people out to the Farallon islands & back & also transported supplies out there in all kinds of snotty weather, when no one else would go, - went out under the golden gate right into the teeth of the north Pacific right there in your back yard & I can tell you boat design make a big difference.

When the weather turns to **** & your a thousand miles to the nearest land, nothing better than a boat designed to take it.

IMHO - There is absolutely No substitute for the right design & build quality. I'll take a strong more conservative build every time over a flashy go fast design.

However, It is expensive to do that & to be honest, most people don't need that, as they are weekend boaters & go out only in relatively good weather like making runs to Catalina.

Sitting at your desk on your computer as we both are now &/or discussing it with friends over a beer in your living room there in Palo Alto, or even being out on San Francisco bay is a whole different thing than actually being out in it with your family (wife & kids, etc.) & friends along with you & them looking up to you & them trusting you & they are depending on YOUR judgement in choice of boat design to get them home safe.

Truth is, 95% of power boats are NOT designed to cross oceans & they are cheaper to build & sell for less as a result of the less rigorous conditions they are built to endure.

It is not hype that ocean crossing boats like the Kadey Krogen or Nordhavn designs are more expensive. They have to be or you don't make it !
There is no substitute for quality & the fancy stuff does not keep you alive.

We have a KK 42 & we love it. It does what we want & also does well in following seas as a result of it's stern wine glass design, huge rudder & over-sized fast acting Auto Pilot Pump & overall hull design. - but it is an 8 knot boat, & that is not what everyone wants.

We have had over a dozen different boats of all types over the last 50 years & I am sold on the ballasted full displacement hull design for my usage. But most people only do weekend trips and a Full Displacement ocean crossing boat is over kill for that usage. Plus most people want to go faster & never go out in bad weather.

Yes we cruise at 8 knots or so. But we always arrive safe & sound.
We sailed her to Hawaii & back & had no trouble getting insurance for the trip. Others here on TF also in a KK 42 have sailed them to the Marquesas, sort of in the same directions as going to Palau that you mentioned.
Ask to take your current beautiful 45 foot boat to Hawaii or the Marquesas on her own bottom & your insurance company will drop you like a hot rock. -- Their is a reason for that. They know the odds !

So that is my opinion. --

BTW - here is another opinion, My good friend, Richard Boast, who most know here on TF & his boat "Dauntless" took his Kadey-Krogen 42 (just like mine) across the Atlantic Ocean twice - once each way - also toured Scandinavia & British Isles, North Sea, France, Spain & Morocco, Canary Islands, Caribbean Sea, Panama Canal & then did the bash up the Pacific Ocean West Coast all the way to Alaska, as a testament to his Kadey Krogen Ballasted Full Displacement hull design, sea keeping & ocean crossing abilities. I can tell you he would NOT have anything else than a ballasted full displacement hull design under him for those type of trips.

There are a lot of compromises when you design a boat & something like getting better following sea handling means you have a tapered stern & smaller transom & that means less interior room in the boat for same over all length.
another thing is Better speed is often more important to most buyers as well as the lower price tag that comes with a semi-displacement design.

So you pay your money & make your choice. All boats are a compromise.

So, Good luck in your search for the perfect boat at the perfect price for you.

Thanks.

Alfa Mike

sunchaser · Sep 19, 2019

dirtdoc1 said:
Your Manatee loves following seas?? It's probably, what, a 8 knot boat? And it loves following seas?! Impressive. My boat does not like following seas at all. It's so bad in following seas that I've decided to put active stabilizers on it.

That kind of info is very helpful, thanks!

Active stabilizers will do little to improve your vessel in following seas. Hull shape and rudder size are good starts, but without buying that mythical perfect boat we are stuck with what we have. Suggest you enjoy your vessel for what it is intended. It is a nice one.

dirtdoc1 · Sep 19, 2019

sunchaser said:
Active stabilizers will do little to improve your vessel in following seas. Hull shape and rudder size are good starts, but without buying that mythical perfect boat we are stuck with what we have. Suggest you enjoy your vessel for what it is intended. It is a nice one.

Sunchaser,

Do you have active stabilizers?

BandB · Sep 19, 2019

The boats capable of crossing oceans cross more than those that aren't. If you have no intention of crossing an ocean, then may not be worth the added cost to you. If you do have the intention then absolutely worth it.

bogranjac1 · Sep 19, 2019

alfamike said:
Here is my opinion. Like Belly Buttons - everyone has one. LOL !

There are a few other Ocean Crossing boat designs out there (Nordhavn, Diesel Duck, Selene, Kadey Krogen, etc., amongst others), that are Full Displacement Ballasted Ocean Crossing Designs -- And they all command a premium price over a typical semi-displacement or plaining hull boat like that nice & good looking North Pacific 45 you have.

I can tell you from personal experience of over 50 years of Open Ocean boating & being a Coast Guard licensed 100 ton captain for 30 years, that it is worth every penny when you life is on the line.

I was in the Farallon Patrol out of Brisbane Marina near you for a long time & we took people out to the Farallon islands & back & also transported supplies out there in all kinds of snotty weather, when no one else would go, - went out under the golden gate right into the teeth of the north Pacific right there in your back yard & I can tell you boat design make a big difference.

When the weather turns to **** & your a thousand miles to the nearest land, nothing better than a boat designed to take it.

IMHO - There is absolutely No substitute for the right design & build quality. I'll take a strong more conservative build every time over a flashy go fast design.

However, It is expensive to do that & to be honest, most people don't need that, as they are weekend boaters & go out only in relatively good weather like making runs to Catalina.

Sitting at your desk on your computer as we both are now &/or discussing it with friends over a beer in your living room there in Palo Alto, or even being out on San Francisco bay is a whole different thing than actually being out in it with your family (wife & kids, etc.) & friends along with you & them looking up to you & them trusting you & they are depending on YOUR judgement in choice of boat design to get them home safe.

Truth is, 95% of power boats are NOT designed to cross oceans & they are cheaper to build & sell for less as a result of the less rigorous conditions they are built to endure.

It is not hype that ocean crossing boats like the Kadey Krogen or Nordhavn designs are more expensive. They have to be or you don't make it !
There is no substitute for quality & the fancy stuff does not keep you alive.

We have a KK 42 & we love it. It does what we want & also does well in following seas as a result of it's stern wine glass design, huge rudder & over-sized fast acting Auto Pilot Pump & overall hull design. - but it is an 8 knot boat, & that is not what everyone wants.

We have had over a dozen different boats of all types over the last 50 years & I am sold on the ballasted full displacement hull design for my usage. But most people only do weekend trips and a Full Displacement ocean crossing boat is over kill for that usage. Plus most people want to go faster & never go out in bad weather.

Yes we cruise at 8 knots or so. But we always arrive safe & sound.
We sailed her to Hawaii & back & had no trouble getting insurance for the trip. Others here on TF also in a KK 42 have sailed them to the Marquesas, sort of in the same directions as going to Palau that you mentioned.
Ask to take your current beautiful 45 foot boat to Hawaii or the Marquesas on her own bottom & your insurance company will drop you like a hot rock. -- Their is a reason for that. They know the odds !

So that is my opinion. --

BTW - here is another opinion, My good friend, Richard Boast, who most know here on TF & his boat "Dauntless" took his Kadey-Krogen 42 (just like mine) across the Atlantic Ocean twice - once each way - also toured Scandinavia & British Isles, North Sea, France, Spain & Morocco, Canary Islands, Caribbean Sea, Panama Canal & then did the bash up the Pacific Ocean West Coast all the way to Alaska, as a testament to his Kadey Krogen Ballasted Full Displacement hull design, sea keeping & ocean crossing abilities. I can tell you he would NOT have anything else than a ballasted full displacement hull design under him for those type of trips.

There are a lot of compromises when you design a boat & something like getting better following sea handling means you have a tapered stern & smaller transom & that means less interior room in the boat for same over all length.
another thing is Better speed is often more important to most buyers as well as the lower price tag that comes with a semi-displacement design.

So you pay your money & make your choice. All boats are a compromise.

So, Good luck in your search for the perfect boat at the perfect price for you.

Thanks.

Alfa Mike

Thank you Alpha Mike for taking the time and going to the bother of this posting. Really these are words of experience here.

Choices · Sep 19, 2019

Before I bought we looked at Nordhavn, GB, Selene, and KK. I ran a crew and private boat, and have no interest in crossing oceans, wanted a good long range coastal trawler.

Boat designs aside, the Nordhavn and KK had what I would call, "artificial", price levels. In my opinion, these were being inflated by factory sales to show higher resale to potential new boat buyers, to push new boats.

Once you got to none factory brokers, pricing came down. Many of those boats were for sale for years.

Quality has a price. It really shows in 25-30 year old boats.

Seevee · Sep 19, 2019

Re: the mention of the hour glass stern....

Do some of the other high end boat without the hour glass do well in a following sea? Like the Flemming?

sunchaser · Sep 19, 2019

dirtdoc1 said:
Sunchaser,

Do you have active stabilizers?

Yes, and they really do a good job - in beam seas. Our boat has twin, very large rudders so it does ok in following seas. Like many, we have found adding power in a following sea improves rudder performance.

Big sea performance starts with vessel pedigree, design and crew experience IMHO. We get out in big seas, DeFever designed his vessels for snotty conditions. Primarily for offshore fishing off the SoCal and Baja coast with stays offshore for days on end. Outer Reef is faithfully following DeFever design cues with this centuries' bells and whistles.

I can't speak to your vessel's heavy weather design, maybe an offshore jaunt with a professional crew on board would be of benefit. How many boats identical to your's have been built, using other's findings as a guide. Or is your's a one of?

In any event, be careful when adding active stabilization. Location, hull strengthening, cooling capacity and PTO takeoff setup are not always properly addressed in an aftermarket setup.

Coastal Cruiser · Sep 19, 2019

I have to respectfully disagree with Sunchaser re the effectiveness of stabilizers in a following sea, unless each wave is perfectly and directly from astern. I have never seen that. So in essentially all "following seas" we have found the stabilizers to be hugely effective.

We are on our second KK. We like the boats because of the build quality, the quality of the components used in the boat and the exceptional customer service.

We live aboard full time. A standard KK 48 has 400 gallon water capacity, full-sized refrigerator, 1275 amp hour house battery bank, full sized GE washer, GE dryer, 265 amp alternator, isolation transformer, copper water piping and on and on. The boat is seaworthy and efficient. All of this is the difference in comfortable cruising and camping out.

So pricey? I see it as value.

sunchaser · Sep 19, 2019

MR
I was indeed referring to those perfect following sea waves that tank testing so nicely propagates. To be clear though, adding stabilizers to a wide beamed flat transom boat will not necessarily yield KK down sea performance.

Wxx3 · Sep 19, 2019

Thank you Mike, for making the case as well as you did.

Being able to handle a following sea well was a primary consideration. In case of a BIG storm, it's your only route to safety.
Also the "old fashioned look, with big bow rise, has meant that I have NEVER had blue water or even breaking waves over any part of the cap rail.
Nordhavns can't say that.

Here is the story I wrote for Kadey Krogen Waypoints 2019 magazine.
I had to embed the pdf in my blog post, sorry it was the only way I figured out how to attach the pdf, as it was over the limit here.

https://dauntlessatsea.com/2019/09/19/leave-the-dance-with-the-one-you-brung/

dirtdoc1 · Sep 19, 2019

Choices said:
Before I bought we looked at Nordhavn, GB, Selene, and KK. I ran a crew and private boat, and have no interest in crossing oceans, wanted a good long range coastal trawler.

Boat designs aside, the Nordhavn and KK had what I would call, "artificial", price levels. In my opinion, these were being inflated by factory sales to show higher resale to potential new boat buyers, to push new boats.

Once you got to none factory brokers, pricing came down. Many of those boats were for sale for years.

Quality has a price. It really shows in 25-30 year old boats.

The "artificial price level" that you refer to is what I'm getting at. It seems like KK has a hell of a profit margin built in to their price. That's basically what I'm getting at. Is the price justified by added value or is it just a larger profit margin?

geoleo · Sep 19, 2019

At what point did KK abandon those PVC cores in the hull that become water saturated and who some owners have deskinned entire hulls at great expense to fix??? :hide:

lipets · Sep 19, 2019

Sorry they are overpriced.

1.5M 48' single screw.....6GPh

" the 48 evinced the occasional tendency to roll deeply even with her ABT stabilizers deployed"

dirtdoc1 · Sep 19, 2019

Wxx3 said:
Thank you Mike, for making the case as well as you did.

Being able to handle a following sea well was a primary consideration. In case of a BIG storm, it's your only route to safety.
Also the "old fashioned look, with big bow rise, has meant that I have NEVER had blue water or even breaking waves over any part of the cap rail.
Nordhavns can't say that.

Here is the story I wrote for Kadey Krogen Waypoints 2019 magazine.
I had to embed the pdf in my blog post, sorry it was the only way I figured out how to attach the pdf, as it was over the limit here.

https://dauntlessatsea.com/2019/09/19/leave-the-dance-with-the-one-you-brung/

I tried the link to your article but when I got there the article did not come up.

dirtdoc1 · Sep 19, 2019

Miss Rachel said:
I have to respectfully disagree with Sunchaser re the effectiveness of stabilizers in a following sea, unless each wave is perfectly and directly from astern. I have never seen that. So in essentially all "following seas" we have found the stabilizers to be hugely effective.

We are on our second KK. We like the boats because of the build quality, the quality of the components used in the boat and the exceptional customer service.

We live aboard full time. A standard KK 48 has 400 gallon water capacity, full-sized refrigerator, 1275 amp hour house battery bank, full sized GE washer, GE dryer, 265 amp alternator, isolation transformer, copper water piping and on and on. The boat is seaworthy and efficient. All of this is the difference in comfortable cruising and camping out.

So pricey? I see it as value.

That's the kind of info that I'm looking for. Expensive - yes but overpriced? Maybe not. If the additional money that you have to pay to get a KK is put in to the build and top of the line systems then that is fine by me.

If a KK owner tells me that the boat is over priced then I'll pay attention.

Thanks for the info!

angus99 · Sep 20, 2019

geoleo said:
At what point did KK abandon those PVC cores in the hull that become water saturated and who some owners have deskinned entire hulls at great expense to fix???

Decades ago, as you probably are well aware. Possibly around the same time you gave up any pretense of being a serious poster and started trolling.

Stickman · Sep 20, 2019

We built a 2017-2018 KK 48 AE. I am reminded monthly of the purchase price ( we chose the 100% financing approach for our own reasons). I have yet to step on board, sleep onboard, travel a mile in a calm harbor or hundreds of miles in storms, perform PM throughout the boat, and feel we grossly overpaid. It’s a small company with limited annual production and they’ve stood behind their product to date.
We learned our share of lessons along the way. Feel free to PM any specific questions.

ksanders · Sep 21, 2019

Geez guys

KK sells boats for what the market is willing to pay.

It’s really that simple.

Overpriced??? Well if they were overpriced they wouldn’t sell many.

Now... Are there other brand new boats out there that will fulfill the same mission for less $$$ Maybe, but to say a KK new or used is overpriced is just plain silly.

BTW on the used market there are DARN FEW power boats that will take you around rthe world for a lower price than a KK42.

BruceK · Sep 21, 2019

ksanders said:
Geez guys

KK sells boats for what the market is willing to pay.

It’s really that simple.

Yep. Supply and demand in operation. Not enough boats to satisfy demand so price stays high.

Stickman · Sep 21, 2019

Stickman said:
We built a 2017-2018 KK 48 AE. I am reminded monthly of the purchase price ( we chose the 100% financing approach for our own reasons). I have yet to step on board, sleep onboard, travel a mile in a calm harbor or hundreds of miles in storms, perform PM throughout the boat, and feel we grossly overpaid. It’s a small company with limited annual production and they’ve stood behind their product to date.
We learned our share of lessons along the way. Feel free to PM any specific questions.

Hmmm, seems this can be interpreted 2 ways. I apologize for any confusion.
In summary, I feel the build quality is apparent to all who step on the boat; and appreciated during all boating circumstances, especially adverse weather and sea conditions. Whether above or below decks, I don’t see any part of the boat where I say to myself, “oh this is where they saved some money”.

dirtdoc1 · Sep 21, 2019

Stickman said:
Hmmm, seems this can be interpreted 2 ways. I apologize for any confusion.
In summary, I feel the build quality is apparent to all who step on the boat; and appreciated during all boating circumstances, especially adverse weather and sea conditions. Whether above or below decks, I don’t see any part of the boat where I say to myself, “oh this is where they saved some money”.

Stickman,

Thanks for your reply. One more question if I may? When you were looking to buy did you consider Nordhavn, Selene, etc. and if so why KK over the other very well built FD trawlers?

Thanks very much!

Stickman · Sep 21, 2019

Nordhavn was my “dream” number 1 years ago. When the time arrived, we were no longer going to be making prolonged transoceanic passages. The KK is a less vertical boat for daily living. My wife preferred the layout which has less need to ascend/descend steps in her daily routine and she designed a more open one level galley/salon. KK worked with her design issues.

So ..... happy wife, happy life.

I’ve spent some days offshore in confused 8-12’s, and storms > 40 knots, and the KK 48 felt like she belonged. Nearshore and ICW the 48AE is an easy boat to dock.
I enjoy the lower vertical clearance and waiting for less bridge openings.
The 48AE is however a “stoop” engine room, not stand up. But my wife has only been down there once, and she enjoys the rest of the boat being less vertical.

dirtdoc1 · Sep 21, 2019

Stickman said:
Nordhavn was my “dream” number 1 years ago. When the time arrived, we were no longer going to be making prolonged transoceanic passages. The KK is a less vertical boat for daily living. My wife preferred the layout which has less need to ascend/descend steps in her daily routine and she designed a more open one level galley/salon. KK worked with her design issues.

So ..... happy wife, happy life.

I’ve spent some days offshore in confused 8-12’s, and storms > 40 knots, and the KK 48 felt like she belonged. Nearshore and ICW the 48AE is an easy boat to dock.
I enjoy the lower vertical clearance and waiting for less bridge openings.
The 48AE is however a “stoop” engine room, not stand up. But my wife has only been down there once, and she enjoys the rest of the boat being less vertical.

I just thought of something. KK's are made in the USA - I believe and both Selene and Nordhavn are made in China. That right there is the price difference. When you stand next to any of the three boats you can see how massive they are. Nordhavns are slow. Too slow for me. If I ever do decide to do more blue water navigation I think that KK is going to be the one. I've heard strange comments about Selenes from multiple mechanics but I do really like them too.

This has been a very expensive learning curve for me and I'm doing my homework well ahead of time. I plan on keeping the NP for a few more years. I really like it but it's not made for serious blue water cruising and feels very sketchy in following seas. It performs very well in all other sea states. But I could see getting in to real trouble if I got in to some serious following seas out to sea. I've been using it exclusively in Washington and British Columbia in the San Juan and Gulf Islands. It's a protected area and I've rarely seen real nasty stuff like I see in the San Francisco coastal areas. I grew up in those waters but had fishing boats that had no concern for following seas. I guess my last experience with following seas was in worse conditions than I thought at the time. I found quite a bit of salt water in my transom the next day. Yes I always cruise with the transom door closed. It's got me a bit skittish and that wineglass transom on the KKs is looking real good to me.

Maerin · Sep 21, 2019

dirtdoc1 said:
I just thought of something. KK's are made in the USA - I believe and both Selene and Nordhavn are made in China. That right there is the price difference. When you stand next to any of the three boats you can see how massive they are. Nordhavns are slow. Too slow for me. If I ever do decide to do more blue water navigation I think that KK is going to be the one. I've heard strange comments about Selenes from multiple mechanics but I do really like them too.

This has been a very expensive learning curve for me and I'm doing my homework well ahead of time. I plan on keeping the NP for a few more years. I really like it but it's not made for serious blue water cruising and feels very sketchy in following seas. It performs very well in all other sea states. But I could see getting in to real trouble if I got in to some serious following seas out to sea. I've been using it exclusively in Washington and British Columbia in the San Juan and Gulf Islands. It's a protected area and I've rarely seen real nasty stuff like I see in the San Francisco coastal areas. I grew up in those waters but had fishing boats that had no concern for following seas. I guess my last experience with following seas was in worse conditions than I thought at the time. I found quite a bit of salt water in my transom the next day. Yes I always cruise with the transom door closed. It's got me a bit skittish and that wineglass transom on the KKs is looking real good to me.

Where did you learn that KK’s are built in the US?? I’m afraid you may get a failing grade on your homework.

KK Justification of High Price

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