Reasonable or Nit-Pickey?

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The deal on my new (to me) boat should close early next week. Engine survey has been done and the hull survey is scheduled for this Thursday. My broker says that after the surveys, we can ask for a price reduction based on any deficiencies, within reason.

So far the things I've noticed are -

1. <li class="MsoNormal">the canvas needs replacing<li class="MsoNormal">at least one bilge pump is bad<li class="MsoNormal">3 minor leaks inside the cabin (not the hull), including one that is the brown juice type<li class="MsoNormal">Liferaft needs recertifying <li class="MsoNormal">May need bottom paint (we'll know Thursday)

I'm sure other things will pop up, but hopefully they'll be minor.

And, although I'm not paying the asking price (who is these days), I'm not getting a 25% discount either and don't want to accept "as is". *My problem is I don't know what would be considered reasonable and what would be considered nit-picky.

In your opinion, what general types of deficiencies are customary to either ask to be taken care of, or, ask for a price reduction on?

By the way, over the last 2 months, I've read almost every thread on this entire forum since it began and have gained not only a wealth of knowledge, but just as importantly, a tremendous amount of trust in opinions from all of you experienced boaters.

Thanks for all!

well I'm not sure about the other stuff but at least around here the buyer pays for the new bottom paint.

GOOD LUCK!

All of the issues except the bottom paint and bilge pump were obvious before you made the offer, so I would assume as the seller you based the offer on the assumption you would pay without these items fixed. The bilge pump should be fixed. The bottom paint is your call.

I'll be interested in hearing others replies as well.

PS: I'd be surprised if that's all that's really wrong with the boat unless it's relatively new. Did you accompany the surveyor?

Surely you made your offer after looking the boat over yourself, right? In that case I wouldn't feel right trying to hold the seller accountable for things that were (or should have been) visible and blatantly obvious to you on your inspection. If it was listed as having a liferaft, I'd balk a little if it isn't in date. If it wasn't listed as equipment, he could take it and throw it in the dumpster and tell you that the boat already has a mount for a liferaft!! Bottom job is a maintenance item like changing the oil, would you barter on an oil change? The cabin leaks....how much is it worth to you to fix them? Like you said in this market you can be more picky and make lower offers But I wouldn't try to lower my offer on the condition of the canvas which I noticed when I did my initial inspection and had already taken into acct. If you see enough wrong with the boat after the inspection to give you serious pause, eat your survey and haulout fees and consider yourself to have dodged a bullet.

timjet wrote:
All of the issues except the bottom paint and bilge pump were obvious before you made the offer, so I would assume as the seller you based the offer on the assumption you would pay without these items fixed. The bilge pump should be fixed. The bottom paint is your call.

I'll be interested in hearing others replies as well.

PS: I'd be surprised if that's all that's really wrong with the boat unless it's relatively new. Did you accompany the surveyor?

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*I fully agree with this statement!!! *The canvas is a good example. *You knew it's condition prior to your offer. *I have had a potential come back at me with this exact issue and I told him exactly that. *He knew that before hand. *Anyway, just my opinion!!

Nsail wrote:The deal on my new (to me) boat should close early next week. Engine survey has been done and the hull survey is scheduled for this Thursday. My broker says that after the surveys, we can ask for a price reduction based on any deficiencies, within reason.
So far the things I've noticed are -

1. <li class="MsoNormal">the canvas needs replacing<li class="MsoNormal">at least one bilge pump is bad<li class="MsoNormal">3 minor leaks inside the cabin (not the hull), including one that is the brown juice type<li class="MsoNormal">Liferaft needs recertifying <li class="MsoNormal">May need bottom paint (we'll know Thursday)

I'm sure other things will pop up, but hopefully they'll be minor.

And, although I'm not paying the asking price (who is these days), I'm not getting a 25% discount either and don't want to accept "as is". *My problem is I don't know what would be considered reasonable and what would be considered nit-picky.

In your opinion, what general types of deficiencies are customary to either ask to be taken care of, or, ask for a price reduction on?

By the way, over the last 2 months, I've read almost every thread on this entire forum since it began and have gained not only a wealth of knowledge, but just as importantly, a tremendous amount of trust in opinions from all of you experienced boaters.

Thanks for all!

Click to expand...

*First off it is not new and the older it is the more little things that you may find.* The canvas and bottom paint didn't change since you made the offer.* Neither did the other three things.

That being said what we did when I bought mine, as suggested by my buyers broker, was to list them all then we asked for only too of the items to be repaired.* There were only seven in total. Mine too had a bilge pump that was out of order and an A/C that was not working correctly.* The rest were cosmetic at best.* The seller didn't want to fix anything due to time restraints more than anything so he said he would discount it another $500 and be done.* The selling broker new that the A/C problem alone*could well exceed that amount and knew the seller was at the end of the line so he gave my broker a check for $500 made out to me from him directly and the seller was none the wiser.* We closed I got the $500 check and fixed the two problems.* Everyone was happy.

My point is don't be "nit picky" as you have titled this post.* Be reasonable.* The five*items you stated should have been considered in the initial offer.

When I sold my previous boats I made it clear that we would not discuss or entertain any items that were under $1000 to repair.* The point being I wasn't going to bring the boat to a like new condition by rebuilding it piece by piece.

Hope this helps Good Luck.



-- Edited by JD on Monday 19th of March 2012 12:00:18 PM


-- Edited by JD on Monday 19th of March 2012 12:03:11 PM

Our broker negotiated a reduction in the price of our boat by the amount it would have taken to fix the autopilot ($500). We didn't even know the boat had an autopilot until we flew to California to inspect, sea trial, and survey the boat, and we didn't want an autopilot and removed it as soon as we got the boat to Puget Sound. But our broker's point was that it was part of the boat's equipment and if it didn't work the seller needed to either have it fixed or reduce the price by that amount. The seller agreed, but of course not every one will.

On your list I would make it a requirement that the non-functioning bilge pump be fixed or replaced, or the price lowered by that amount so that you can do it.

Depending on the role canvas plays on the boat, its poor condition might warrant a price reduction, too. If it's important to the function of the boat--- a full, windowed, flying bridge enclosure if the flying bridge is the primary steering and navigation position, for example--- the canvas may have to be renewed to maintain this fuctionality. In which case it could be worth negotiating a price reduction. If it's "just" the side panels on the flying bridge railing, or window covers or that sort of nice-to-have thing, it's probably something that the seller won't view as being worth cutting his price over for the reasons others have listed above.

Leaks and dry rot can be major things to fix. In this case I think the previous posters are right in that you knew those issues existed before you decided to buy the boat, so it has to be assumed you made your offer accordingly.* It's no different than buying a used car with a ripped leather seat. Might cost a lot to fix or replace it, but you knew it was there so if you went ahead and agreed to buy the car, you were agreeing to buy it with the ripped seat.


-- Edited by Marin on Monday 19th of March 2012 12:19:30 PM

Nsail wrote:
*
The deal on my new (to me) boat should close early next week. Engine survey has been done and the hull survey is scheduled for this Thursday. My broker says that after the surveys, we can ask for a price reduction based on any deficiencies, within reason.

So far the things I've noticed are -

1. <li class="MsoNormal">the canvas needs replacing<li class="MsoNormal">at least one bilge pump is bad<li class="MsoNormal">3 minor leaks inside the cabin (not the hull), including one that is the brown juice type<li class="MsoNormal">Liferaft needs recertifying <li class="MsoNormal">May need bottom paint (we'll know Thursday)

I'm sure other things will pop up, but hopefully they'll be minor.

And, although I'm not paying the asking price (who is these days), I'm not getting a 25% discount either and don't want to accept "as is". *My problem is I don't know what would be considered reasonable and what would be considered nit-picky.

In your opinion, what general types of deficiencies are customary to either ask to be taken care of, or, ask for a price reduction on?

By the way, over the last 2 months, I've read almost every thread on this entire forum since it began and have gained not only a wealth of knowledge, but just as importantly, a tremendous amount of trust in opinions from all of you experienced boaters.

Thanks for all!

Click to expand...

*The biggest concern I would have is the 3 minor interior water leaks as that can be structural and very expensive.* When you pull the boat for the out water if your going to buy have the bottom paint as the hull out and blocking is a large % of the cost.* The other stuff is your call and as far as I am concern general maintenance cost of owning a boat, bilge pump, canvas repair, bottom paint, life raft certification.

It is usually the buyers responsibility to do fresh bottom paint and to recertify the raft. Certification is only good for one year and for a boat for sale, to re-certify may be a waste of money if the boat is for sale for a year. Same with bottom paint for a boat sitting awhile for sale, if life expectancy for paint is 18 months, and it sits 9 months half of the cost is lost.
However the boat should have some paint on the bottom even if it does not protect much from marine growth it still must protect the gel coat.

You have not done the survey yet so the items that you know about should be reflected in your offer. It is the unkown items or safety items (bilge pump) that the seller should either fix or give you a credit. I tell all my clients to plan on an oil change, fuel filter change, new raw water pump impellers, fresh engine zincs after they purchase.

If you are getting cold feet on purchase of this boat, and you have put money in earnest down, I hope you placed acceptable and carefully worded purchase refusal contingencies (dated or open-ended) into the contract which allows you to back out of the deal if necessary and to get your earnest-deposit back.* As another in this thread mentioned... best to eat the cost of survey and haul-out if you feel it is time to run from this boat.* It is a real bad feeling to purchase a boat and then wish you had not.* A real GREAT feeling to purchase a boat and then every successive day be more and more glad you did!

Thanks for all of the replies so far. Always a help.

The canvas I did know about. The broker told me maybe on the bottom paint, but we wouldn't know until the boat was out of the water.

I agree that the liferaft certification should have been checked before the offer, but I ignorantly didn't know that it should be checked and the broker didn't say anything. By the way, the liferaft was listed.

This poses another question - The listing says that the boat has a common sea chest. There is none. Opinions?


Sorry Tim, but there was no way I would know about the bilge pump and leaks before hand as you suggested. The bilges were dry when I inspected the boat and therfore weren't turning on. During the engine survey, the surveyor noticed the bilge pump problem. As for the leaks, we happened to do the engine survey during a driving rainstorm, and I noticed the leaks. There was no evidence of them previously.

Art wrote:If you are getting cold feet on purchase of this boat, and you have put money in earnest down, I hope you placed acceptable and carefully worded purchase refusal contingencies (dated or open-ended) into the contract which allows you to back out of the deal if necessary and to get your earnest-deposit back.* As another in this thread mentioned... best to eat the cost of survey and haul-out if you feel it is time to run from this boat.* It is a real bad feeling to purchase a boat and then wish you had not.* A real GREAT feeling to purchase a boat and then every successive day be more and more glad you did!

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*I feel great about the boat and have no intentions of backing out. I was just looking for advice. Not that I don't trust my broker with these types of questions. It's just that I trust you all a little more.

Nsail wrote:<br style="font-size:x-small;" />
This poses another question - The listing says that the boat has a common sea chest. There is none. Opinions?

<br style="font-size:x-small;" />

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*Since most boats of the type most of us have don't have one, the lack of one doesn't seem to me to be an issue.

But I would be curious as to why one was listed in the boat's specs when it actually doesn't have one.* Might have simply been confusion with another boat when the listing was being drawn up.

options are all over the map...I have certainly heard a ton of nitpicks on a used boat a new buyer could want.

the bottom line is that without the asking price and offer...plus overall condition of the boat I would have NO clue what to tell you.

you could be getting a steal with all that stuff and plenty more...(just did it last year...good price but lots wrong...) or you could be getting screwed...long before you address those few concerns.

don't depend on the surveyor to catch major faults...they*could be*hidden and without destructive testing...ya never know unless you have someone at your side with lots of experience with a sistership.

all said and done...the bilge pump was probably wrong anyhow...so fixing it isn't the answer...knock a $200 off...the liferaft is a joke...if it was good it was probably built into the price/not good its probably being thrown in to help the deal, the leaks are your call...it is a used boat you know...and forget bottom paint...again it could be bad and having done bad again is a joke.* Maybe another $300 off to bring it up to $500 off from what your saying...ok to mention on a $50,000 or less boat...if over $100,000 you better come up with more than that stuff to start dickering.

The seller is motivated in most cases...so a couple thou is no big deal as that's storage/maint over a half season ....so* compare it*to asking price/price offered...it's all gonna be about how much you want this particular boat/desig/model...etc... anyway.

Nsail wrote:The canvas I did know about. The broker told me maybe on the bottom paint, but we wouldn't know until the boat was out of the water.
I agree that the liferaft certification should have been checked before the offer, but I ignorantly didn't know that it should be checked and the broker didn't say anything. By the way, the liferaft was listed.

This poses another question - The listing says that the boat has a common sea chest. There is none. Opinions?


Sorry Tim, but there was no way I would know about the bilge pump and leaks before hand as you suggested. The bilges were dry when I inspected the boat and therfore weren't turning on. During the engine survey, the surveyor noticed the bilge pump problem. As for the leaks, we happened to do the engine survey during a driving rainstorm, and I noticed the leaks. There was no evidence of them previously.

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*OK then the canvas you knew about and was reflected in you original offer or it should have been. The broker should have least been able to tell you when the last time the bottom had been done.* If two or three years ago then it may be due if six months ago maybe OK depending on who did it.

No question as to the bilge pump needs to be fixed but*by whom needs to be determined. I would say the seller by way of money off or a repair.

The life raft is a bit sticky.* To rectify it might be pricey.* If it was listed as part of the listing I would say it should be good, meaning Certified.* But as Tucker says that is tricky due to several things so I would ask for it to be certified at the sellers expense.

The Sea Chest now if it was full of Gold Coins that's one thing but I'd ask how it got on the listing.* Also was this boat or others of the same make built with one and has*this boat had it removed or was it never there.* If it was removed that could mean a big hole was fixed and that could*be important.* If there never was one there are as many folks that like them as hate them so that isn't a deal breaker.

The leaks.* Well maybe the seller really didn't know they were there.* If you sea trialed in heavy seas and rain may be*the flexing revealed the leaks.* More important is there any damage from them and how hard are they to be fixed properly including the damage.

You either didn't mention the make or age of this boat*or I missed it. The point is $5,000 of repairs on a $55K boat that you offered $49K for*may be asking a bit much but on a $250K boat that you offered $225K for*not so much.*

Ask for what yu want and see what the seller says.

After all this is a negotiation.

Haggle.**Shoot for the moon and take what you can get.

What is the worst that could happen he tells you to go away or he agrees to this that and the other.

It is a buyers market. Lots of boats out there.

Things like depending upon sea trials and after survey come to mind.

Really hard to tell without a lot more information. don't know what kind of boat what is your intended use of said boat.

Bilge pumps. I have 3 and 3 for spares. if the price*of that queers the deal you didn't really want the boat anyhow.

Keep looking. It's most of the fun.

SD

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If it was me, I wouldn't want him fixing anything...I'd want to do my own fixing. Add it ALL up and tell him the deal is reduced by that much. If he doesn't like it, ask him what he does like and go from there. You should recover at least the cost of the survey.

The things you mentionned are relatively minor and easy/inexpensive to fix (but the source of the leaks should be identified). You could get a few hundred dollars off but i wouldn't push it too much. If the surveyor finds major problems then that's a different ball game.

jeffnick wrote:
*I wouldn't want him fixing anything...

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*X2

Can't tell you how many times I've said unflattering things about my boat's PO for some of the crap I've found that were "fixed".

"The point being I wasn't going to bring the boat to a like new condition by rebuilding it piece by piece."



AMEN , Folks purchasing a USED boat should take a look at what a NEW similar boat would cost.

A boat is a toy for most , so you either fall in love , or you don't.

Fear not , in 6 months your problem /expense list will be 5-10 times what you are looking at now.

Well when I sell a boat or usually buy one it is bought as is and I fix what ever!You probably have a seal it price to begin with.either buy it or move on don't waste the sellers time and yours!

Wait till you get the survey.* Items that have already been identified don't count for us.

After we had the pre-purchase survey on Hobo we came up with a list of corrective items:* injectors needed to be serviced, valves adjusted, minor blisters at the water line, a water leak at one of the pilot house doors, a small section of the eyebrow needed to be replaced and some other things.* We went back to the seller and negotiated a $10,000 reduction.** We still send emails back and forth with the seller and we did this deal without any brokers.

The way I look at it is that you should not go back to the seller to negotiate things you could have or should have seen on your own prepurchase inspection, the one you based your offer on.

You should also not try to negotiate for little maintenance items like bilge pumps.

Pretty much everything you mentioned should have been discovered by you as part of a pre-purchase inspection.

The bottom paint condition could have been avoided with "when was the boat last bottom painted?" If over a year ago then expect to redo it.

Liferafts are not required on most recreational boats, and there's a tag on it.

Canvas, well that one is ovbious.

Interior leaks... That one you might have missed if they were not visible from the cabin. You might renegotiate for them since they can be hidden and expensive.

Boats are a constant maintenance cycle. As a buyer you need to be prepared to do some refit to any boat you buy. The larger the boat generally the more expensive the refit. Thats just boating.

Phil Fill wrote:Nsail wrote:
*
The deal on my new (to me) boat should close early next week. Engine survey has been done and the hull survey is scheduled for this Thursday. My broker says that after the surveys, we can ask for a price reduction based on any deficiencies, within reason.

So far the things I've noticed are -

1. <li class="MsoNormal">the canvas needs replacing<li class="MsoNormal">at least one bilge pump is bad<li class="MsoNormal">3 minor leaks inside the cabin (not the hull), including one that is the brown juice type<li class="MsoNormal">Liferaft needs recertifying <li class="MsoNormal">May need bottom paint (we'll know Thursday)

I'm sure other things will pop up, but hopefully they'll be minor.

And, although I'm not paying the asking price (who is these days), I'm not getting a 25% discount either and don't want to accept "as is". *My problem is I don't know what would be considered reasonable and what would be considered nit-picky.

In your opinion, what general types of deficiencies are customary to either ask to be taken care of, or, ask for a price reduction on?

By the way, over the last 2 months, I've read almost every thread on this entire forum since it began and have gained not only a wealth of knowledge, but just as importantly, a tremendous amount of trust in opinions from all of you experienced boaters.

Thanks for all!

Click to expand...

*The biggest concern I would have is the 3 minor interior water leaks as that can be structural and very expensive.* When you pull the boat for the out water if your going to buy have the bottom paint as the hull out and blocking is a large % of the cost.* The other stuff is your call and as far as I am concern general maintenance cost of owning a boat, bilge pump, canvas repair, bottom paint, life raft certification.

*I'm with Phil Fill on this is one. Virtually every item listed except the "minor" leaks can be estimated beforehand what their rough cost to fix will be. Minor leaks have a nasty habit of being anything but minor so I would really work the surveyor to make sure he/she gives you as accurate an assessment as they can in that area. That to me is definitely a negotiable/walk away item.

And has been suggested here, be sure you are with the hull surveyor throughout his/her poring over the boat. Ask what might seem like weird questions as they occur.

Also, don't ignore the domestic systems such as fridge, stove, etc. Their repairs can add up quickly as well.*

Could you give us an idea of the asking price of the boat? Ask your broker what Soldboats says the boat is fetching. A brown juice type of leak will probably have a soft deck between what you see and the sky. Have your surveyor start there before you haul. You may save yourself some money. The rest are maintenance items.

"3 minor leaks inside the cabin (not the hull), including one that is the brown juice type"

I' be worried about this one.....Brown Juice isn't minor, other than that, I would look forward to fixing the rest myself.

E

Baggiolini wrote:
"3 minor leaks inside the cabin (not the hull), including one that is the brown juice type"

I' be worried about this one.....Brown Juice isn't minor, other than that, I would look forward to fixing the rest myself.

E

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Depending on the trawler...it's not the end of the world either.

If she has teak decks on the flybridge...there is a common source...so are the windows which are often easily caulked if not too far gone.

I just found out my flybridge core is a bunch of random teak blocks...many saturated but none rotten.


-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 20th of March 2012 05:54:43 PM

When I bought my boat, the surveyor recommended stripping and then repainting because there were many, many layers of paint. What I found after buying and stripping the bottom was thousands of small blisters that couldn't be detected through the layers of paint. The survey found some of the larger (quarter-sized) ones, but I thought I'd be able to fix them as there weren't too many of them.

If the paint is thin, I'd negotiate at least part of the cost of painting. If the paint is thick and peeling, and you find any blisters, you may want to have the surveyor take a closer look (i.e. chemically strip a few test spots).

certain items are required to be considered seaworthy/legal, I would highly recommend you ask seller fix those as part of the transaction.
Bottom paint and canvas - well that comes along with a used boat.

bobc wrote:
When I bought my boat, the surveyor recommended stripping and then repainting because there were many, many layers of paint. What I found after buying and stripping the bottom was thousands of small blisters that couldn't be detected through the layers of paint. The survey found some of the larger (quarter-sized) ones, but I thought I'd be able to fix them as there weren't too many of them.

If the paint is thin, I'd negotiate at least part of the cost of painting. If the paint is thick and peeling, and you find any blisters, you may want to have the surveyor take a closer look (i.e. chemically strip a few test spots).

Click to expand...

*And you might have a major case of hydrlolysis...that costs around $20,000 unless you do it yourself for around 2K...my surveyor never even picked it up...said some minor blistering but that was all.* In all fairness...NO surveyor can really tell unless you dry or strip ansd even core.* But he should have picked up the major delamination.


-- Edited by psneeld on Tuesday 20th of March 2012 07:12:21 PM