OTDE - Has... err, Had its place!

Am I seeing through a glass darkly... is it just me... or have you noticed too?* OTDE closes and Forum entries slow.* Paranoia strikes deep!* LOL

Poll entry ratios should tell us the general*flavor of forum*contributors.* Results could be interesting!

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Kind of poorly worded. While I think it should have very little monitoring with lots of latitude, nothing on a site you own should be totally unmonitored.

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Ted

Art wrote:
Am I seeing through a glass darkly... is it just me... or have you noticed too?* OTDE closes and Forum entries slow.* Paranoia strikes deep!* LOL

Poll entry ratios should tell us the general*flavor of forum*contributors.* Results could be interesting!

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My personal opinion is that if it is offered, it should not be monitored, except in the case of legal libel. The worst possible scenario is where moderators are unable to differentiate between their own biased worldview opinions and what constitutes civility.

Unfortunately, the definition of civility on OTDE has been based on whether the moderator would just as soon make the same insult themselves. *If yes, then the insult was civil and went unnoticed. *If no, then the insult was an outrage with the result that thread was pulled.

I have no problem with some posters consistently presenting themselves as experts even when they clearly have no clue what they are talking about, all the while offering their defective advice as gospel. *You can always ignore tedious verbosity and snarky, self-inflated condencension when you encounter it, which a couple of posters have made themselves legendary purveyors of. *I do object when the mods allow these boors to express themselves, then shut down return fire. *The mods should just make up their minds to stop all the insults or step aside. *That is not what has happened here, which is why the kerfuffle remains a kerfuffle.

Fixing what's not broken...

So far I'm the one dissenting vote.* I've never seen any good come from that type of section on a forum.* It wouldn't be missed IMHO.

Greetings,
Nope Mr. Art, the forum entries HAVE slowed. I was going to mention this but I figured it was either a phase of the moon or there were no sales on at the liquor stores. Whilst a number of folks have stated categorically that the never go to or even look at OTDE, I suspect for a goodly number, although they never post or comment, OTDE is another source of entertainment aside from the regular posts.
As seen in the General Discussion (Confined to Quarters) Comments-85 and Views 3377! These numbers far surpass any other topic since Feb 16th. Love it or hate it, OTDE is controversial. I voted to keep it unmonitored and let's see what develops. The moderators can always change it to a "slightly" moderated form later on although too much moderation will most certainly quash the notoriety of the section. If one looks back a few pages (OTDE) one notices that a lot of the topics were commented on and viewed as many times as the ones in the rest of the site. Censorship is not a very good thing and as mentioned by some members is the reason they will no longer frequent TF.
Granted, some of the comments cause me to just shake my head in disbelief, for whatever reason and it scares me to think that there are people that actually BELIEVE some of the stuff they spew.
I had a post deleted (Conservatives are more likely to be racist and bigots etc.) and although controversial, expressed a view by a certain segment of society that I felt should be discussed. Mr. Marin voiced an opinion which I understood and appreciated. Guess I ruffled the wrong feathers and I will not post the future study that suggests Liberals are more likely to be......Which Mr. Marin mentioned would be forthcoming.

There was a forum I used to visit which was moderated.* Had nothing to do with trawlers BTW.* At any rate, the mods would close or lock threads for any reason, and it was never consistent.* It was censorship, and it was capricious.* Well liked people were never censored, and a few people*were so well liked that they could ask for money -- and if someone*asked them about the legitimacy of their need, they were censored.*

Here,*I have learned to (try) to*ignore the people I don't*agree with.* While I don't agree with them,*and some of them really remind me of grouchy old men, and most of them use bad grammar except for one, I would*rather not have them censored no matter what their opinion is or how angry it makes me.

That said, this forum is really great and I've learned so much here but I am against censorship even when it is due to threads degrading*down into name calling when the OP was asking about twins vs. single.* Some interesting things get said and it*gives me the opportunity to see how my fellow boaters think.* So when I meet them*in a marina or something I'm better equipped to relate to them..**'Nuff Said.*


-- Edited by Egregious on Thursday 15th of March 2012 06:44:56 PM

Egregious wrote:
Here,*I have learned to (try) to*ignore the people I don't*agree with.* While I don't agree with them,*and some of them really remind me of grouchy old men, and most of them use bad grammar except for one, I would*rather not have them censored no matter what their opinion is or how angry it makes me.

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*Am completely in agreement.

Like Egregious and dwhatty said....for mine...

Interesting Voting and Posting-Participant results at time of this post:
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Out of 27 votes total...
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YES - Unmonitored 37%
YES - Monitored 37%
NO - Not At All 26%
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In general... YES Votes so far take it by a land slide!*
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Also, I hear that some previous forum contributors are not corresponding (posting) due to circumstances and might simply disappear from this Forum.* I imagine they will keep an eye on the outcome to this thread and what eventually occurs to OTDE.* I notice that out of the 27 votes there have only been nine (9) posts... which means 66% of voters are not contributing posts, but rather lurking to see outcome to the direction this forum travels.* If I were a new owner I would pay close attention to the voted desires and number of previous contributors who have turned lurker... and might stop visiting Trawler Forum.* Its all in the numbers!* CHEERS!!

The ONLY reason I look at the OTDE is for the jokes.* The rest I could care less.* Trawlerforum is a boating sight so the discussion should be boating related.* Besides there of other sights for the non boating discussion.*
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I personal stop or was reluctant to even post under the other boating topics because it ran over into other discussion.* I dont mind others not agreeing with me but there is no need for FLAMING.*
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I would prefer if OTDE was changed to JOKES/FUN TOPICS.* *

Opinions right? everyone has one.

The only problem I have ever seen with ODTE is the occasional troll. Posting just for argument sake.

Most of the posters are or were regular TF members.

Some of the stuff could get a little verbose. For the most part it was just thoughts and opinions of regular TF members.

I say if things get out of hand Lock the thread and move on. No need to shut the whole show down.

SD

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Question, does the OTDE banter/grudges ever spill over to other boating related threads?

Adelaide wrote:
Question, does the OTDE banter/grudges ever spill over to other boating related threads?

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Not that I noticed.* OTDE and rest of Forum sections seemed completely separated regarding discussion/threads.* As it should be!* Actually, before OTDE was closed I believe even the acronym OTDE was seldom if ever mentioned in other Forum sections.

Voting %ages on OTDE are getting even more interesting!

I really have no opinion on the OTDE, as I don't frequent it. I certainly also have no problem with it being reinstated, monitored or not, as it has no bearing on what I read on TF.

What I don't understand though, is why folks would opt out of a great trawler/boating forum because it did not include a section on non-boating topics.

OK, I voted, but I would love to have seen a couple more choices. What if the multiple choice list looked like this. I bet you'd get some more votes.

1. Yes, Monitored

2. Yes, Unmonitored

3. Not at all

4. I don't participate in OTDE, so I don't feel passionate about it one way or another.

5. Yes, monitored or not, as long as it helps keep righteous opportunists from using the rest of the forum as an instrument of personal degradation.


However, I understand that the original choices are clear, and are likely to attract votes from those that really do participate in OTDE.

Conrad wrote:
What I don't understand though, is why folks would opt out of a great trawler/boating forum because it did not include a section on non-boating topics.

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Amen.

Or any other interest specific forum for that matter.* There's lots of places to vent your political spleen online without alienating fellow boaters in this forum.

bobofthenorth wrote:Conrad wrote:
What I don't understand though, is why folks would opt out of a great trawler/boating forum because it did not include a section on non-boating topics.

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Amen.

Or any other interest specific forum for that matter.* There's lots of places to vent your political spleen online without alienating fellow boaters in this forum.

*I second this. *I voted to keep it with monitoring

The anchoring threads probably could use more moderating than OTDE. I can care less about either of those two sections though.

My only attraction to this forum is boating. The rest is just pure balloon juice.

I have a friend that I met at work. We seem to talk about dozens of subjects when we get together, not just work things which is where we met.

I was at the grocery store and they sell magazines. You don't eat magazines, you don't grow magazines, why would they sell something totally unrelated to groceries at the grocery store?

I was at the gas station and they sell chips and sodas. Why? It's a gas station not a chips and soda station.

I was on a boating forum and we had a section we could talk about cars, guns, and other topics other than boats. Why would someone who has a boat talk about anything but boats?

Now for full disclosure, I don't buy magazines at the grocery store because I subscribe to those I want to read. I don't buy chips and soda at the gas station because I've just never seen a need to. But it doesn't bother me if others buy magazines, or sodas and chips, even if occasionally I have to wait in line behind them to get to the cashier.

Now, if I was a soda and chips guy, or a magazine guy, I just might shop somewhere else if the store quit selling those items. And if my friend from work only wanted to talk about work, we probably wouldn't be as good of friends as we are.

Every retail store owner knows that people are creatures of habit. Do you notice that most people buy gas at the same station and groceries at the same store 90% of the time? Maybe you do it yourself. If that store is closed for 2 weeks you develop a habit to go to a different store. Sometimes you find that it's just as convenient as your old habit and you never change back. Others find that they can't wait for the old place to open back up. But, the odds are, that once the habit is broken, it doesn't come back without some effort. Why do stores have Grand ReOpenings? Special sales? Because the customers don't always come back on their own.

Ken

2bucks wrote:
I have a friend that I met at work. We seem to talk about dozens of subjects when we get together, not just work things which is where we met.

I was at the grocery store and they sell magazines. You don't eat magazines, you don't grow magazines, why would they sell something totally unrelated to groceries at the grocery store?

I was at the gas station and they sell chips and sodas. Why? It's a gas station not a chips and soda station.

I was on a boating forum and we had a section we could talk about cars, guns, and other topics other than boats.

Ken

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With all respect, I suspect you and your friend don't deliberately look for the most volatile, partisan subjects you can find and aggressively throw them in each others faces. I've seen what passes for ciivilized discourse on OTDE, and many of the threads start off as an attack on "the other side's" belief system. Most of us wouldn't have a lot of friends if we went off on people or their belief systems in person, but the semi-anonymity the Internet turns otherwise respectful people into ranters.

The standard answer (again) is just don't go there if you don't like it. Now that I know what it's like, I'll take that advice.

And I believe they're now called "convenience stores.". : )

I suspect that most of us on this forum got into boating long before Al Gore invented the internet. I got all my pilot ratings--- private, commercial, instrument, flight instructor, seaplane-- long before Al figured out how to make computers talk to each other. While the internet and this forum can be very useful aids in learning techniques, finding solutions to problems, finding parts, materials, and services, learning which equipment might best suit one's needs and so on, neither one of them is, in my view, essential or even necessary for having a safe, enjoyable, and adventurous experience with a boat.

If this forum, or the internet itself for that matter, went away tomorrow I daresay that outside of the social interaction that would be lost it would not make a dent in the boating experience of just about everyone here. Certainly not to the people who have been boating for many years. Some might miss the camaraderie and the opportunity to communicate with like-minded people they've "met" on the forum, but outside of that I suspect that virtually none of us would change what we do with and what we get out of our boats.

I never subscribed to Passagemaker magazine nor have I ever looked at their forum. But from comments I've read here over the years I gather the PMM forum is less than easy to use and is not all that great anyway. So a lot of people have apparently stopped using it. And my guess is that this has had no impact whatsoever on their boating.

The same can happen here. While OTDE discussions have little or nothing to do with boating, they do provide a place for forum members who are interested in doing so to develop relationships with other members. This in turn, I think, leads to more participation in the boating "buckets." People are more inclined to talk about things with people they know rather than people they don't know. Even if all they know about a person is what they read on the pages of an internet forum.

While I don't care if OTDE stays, goes, or becomes heavily moderated with all sorts of "rude" filters applied, I agree with Ken that if OTDE goes the forum will lose some of its "one stop for everything" user appeal. And over time I think this will lead to decreased participation in the boating discussions.

We're not in elementary school here. By the time we reach the level of life experience most of us here have, we're not going to change. We are what we are. Just as the people we deal with everyday at work or in retirement are what they are. Some are great, some are okay, some are neither here nor there, and some are a*sholes. So you deal with it however you yourself think is appropriate. If we can't handle what's dished out, we're all free to leave, either the discussion, OTDE, or the whole forum. But I think it's up to each individual to make that choice for themselves.

If nothing else, OTDE provides an opportunity to learn more about the individual.* Makes one feel he is dealing with a "whole" person when interacting on other subforums.

angus99 wrote:2bucks wrote:
I have a friend that I met at work. We seem to talk about dozens of subjects when we get together, not just work things which is where we met.

I was at the grocery store and they sell magazines. You don't eat magazines, you don't grow magazines, why would they sell something totally unrelated to groceries at the grocery store?

I was at the gas station and they sell chips and sodas. Why? It's a gas station not a chips and soda station.

I was on a boating forum and we had a section we could talk about cars, guns, and other topics other than boats.

Ken

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With all respect, I suspect you and your friend don't deliberately look for the most volatile, partisan subjects you can find and aggressively throw them in each others faces. I've seen what passes for ciivilized discourse on OTDE, and many of the threads start off as an attack on "the other side's" belief system. Most of us wouldn't have a lot of friends if we went off on people or their belief systems in person, but the semi-anonymity the Internet turns otherwise respectful people into ranters. The standard answer (again) is just don't go there if you don't like it. Now that I know what it's like, I'll take that advice. And I believe they're now called "convenience stores.". : )

*I don't think I agree Angus. I think my friends and I each know the others hot buttons and push them now and again just for fun. I don't think I'm alone in that either, or there wouldn't be the "remember when you did this stupid thing" stories out there. Don't those come up when you talk to your friends?

Convenience? I'll bet half the people that work there can't spell convenience. At least not the same way two times out of three. ;-)

Ken

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Art wrote:Adelaide wrote:Question, does the OTDE banter/grudges ever spill over to other boating related threads?Not that I noticed.* OTDE and rest of Forum sections seemed completely separated regarding discussion/threads.* As it should be!* Actually, before OTDE was closed I believe even the acronym OTDE was seldom if ever mentioned in other Forum sections.
Voting %ages on OTDE are getting even more interesting!

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Sorry Art, I don't agree.* There are over tones that creep into the rest of the Forum.* That is one of*my biggest problems with it aside from the arrogance that some have thinking their writing skills and use of grammar is superior to most thus they are as well.

Just reread some of these very posts in this section.

At this date and time, Id just like to mention!
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YES Unmonitored - - > 50%
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YES Monitored - - > 26%
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NO Not At All - - > 24%
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With 50 voters on OTDE so far... Once again, YES (in general) by a landslide; 76% to be exact!!
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This is fun No matter what any contributors says or thinks.* Talk about a mini social experiment exclusively with boaters no less.*
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You know that we boaters are a class by ourselves.* And, in my opinion a good class for sure.* Pretty darn eclectic with a broad range of experiences!!*

Votes may not matter.

Quote from the Rules on Cruiserforum, which from what has been mentioned, are soon to be the rules here:

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I don't have any problem with most of these rules, except for the editing to change the text of a post,* but, its 'their way or the highway', and no public discussion of their decisions will be allowed.

In addition, I am assuming we can expect lots of advertising on the pages.* Cruisers Forum looks a lot like TV, with almost as much advertising as content.

Larry H wrote:
Votes may not matter.

I don't have any problem with most of these rules, except for the editing to change the text of a post,* but, its 'their way or the highway', and no public discussion of their decisions will be allowed.

In addition, I am assuming we can expect lots of advertising on the pages.* Cruisers Forum looks a lot like TV, with almost as much advertising as content.

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We'll see how this*turns out.* If, through new rules and too much advertising*this forum*simply begins to*add to the "Dumming of America"... Many*"old salts" will simply say Bye, Bye!* Me included!!* Cheers, Art * *

Many "old salts" will simply say Bye, Bye! Me included!!


And the next stop is??

On a similar forum years ago I was dunned to appoligise " for stating that I avoid JABSCO products !!

Once the censorship starts the slope gets pretty slippery.

I didn't vote because I generally never go there. I have found that OTDE on here like many other forums I go on, including sailing and woodworking, usually have a negative impact on some. The political discussions sometimes turn into swapping insults and then carrying over the negative feelings onto the other discussion boards. Todays politics are no longer discussions, they are hate sessions at all levels in our society including the media and all levels of our government.
As for closing down that forum, I wasn't aware that they did. Do they have the right to do that? Yes. It's their site, they should have the right to do what they want.
Personally, I come on here to talk about boats and not to vent. Others are different.
Like I said, it does not affect me either way.
Did the closing of that discussion group cause less participation here? I dont know. I don't participate as much as I used to and thats because most if not all of my questions have been answered and I dont have any trawler experience to offer much advise. I still lurk in the background and participate some.