sanitation hoses

Has anyone ever used a snake to clean out the salt build up inside hoses? I am replacing the aft head Y valve and can see about 1/2 to3/4 in build up inside the 1 1/2 in hose. The hose runs about 18/20 ft. to holding tank. I don't see it being a clean and mess free kind of job but easier than r/r with a new hose, or how about a chemical solution or just fresh water to disolve the crystals?


-- Edited by Slowboat 37 on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 02:24:00 PM

Slowboat 37 wrote:
Has anyone ever used a snake to clean out the salt build up inside hoses? I am replacing the aft head Y valve and can see about 1/2 to3/4 in build up inside the 1 1/2 in hose. The hose runs about 18/20 ft. to holding tank. I don't see it being a clean and mess free kind of job but easier than r/r with a new hose, or how about a chemical solution or just fresh water to disolve the crystals?



-- Edited by Slowboat 37 on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 02:24:00 PM

Click to expand...

There is a mild acid available at your marine supply store for cleaning calcinization out of toilets that should do the job. Sorry, but I can't recall the name at the moment.*

I'll bet Peggy will pop in and tell us.*


-- Edited by Carey on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 02:58:48 PM

Slowboat 37 wrote:
Has anyone ever used a snake to clean out the salt build up inside hoses? I am replacing the aft head Y valve and can see about 1/2 to3/4 in build up inside the 1 1/2 in hose. The hose runs about 18/20 ft. to holding tank. I don't see it being a clean and mess free kind of job but easier than r/r with a new hose, or how about a chemical solution or just fresh water to disolve the crystals?

Click to expand...

In my experience from replacing old lengths of saniation hose with a lot of buildup inside, the stuff on the inside of the hose is like concrete.* All that would break it free was to whack the hose repeatedly and hard against the dock and then what came out were big chunks and slices of the stuff.* The sort of thing that if they were inside a hose in place on the boat would probably jam and clog it.* I think a snake would just slide on down through the hose and leave the buildup intact.* But I've never tried it.* If you do, let us know what happens.

Slowboat 37 wrote:
Has anyone ever used a snake to clean out the salt build up inside hoses? I am replacing the aft head Y valve and can see about 1/2 to3/4 in build up inside the 1 1/2 in hose. The hose runs about 18/20 ft. to holding tank. I don't see it being a clean and mess free kind of job but easier than r/r with a new hose, or how about a chemical solution or just fresh water to disolve the crystals?

Click to expand...

The snake won't work.* *Sorry.**

Have you checked to see if the you have odor break thru on the hose?* Take a paper towel section and rub it along the outside of the hose, particularly along the low spots.* Smell the paper towel.* If*has any*odor replace all the hose before proceeding.

Once you fixed the problem you need to maintain your system to prevent this from happening again.

Larry's right...test the hoses for odor permeation before doing anything more...and if they test positive, replace 'em. If they're more than 10 years old, replace 'em anyway...'cuz 10 years is the average useful life of ANY hose...after that they start to get hard, brittle and begin to crack.

Muriatic acid, available from any hardware store, will dissolve sea water mineral buildup in hoses. You may need more than one application.

Distilled white vinegar will also dissolve sea water minerals, but using it to dissolve a heavy buildup (that weekly doses of white vinegar could have prevented) will take so many applications that it's not worth the effort.

Or you could remove all the hoses and beat hell out of 'em on the dock, then put 'em back...but I'd replace 'em before I'd do that!

And btw...if your sanitation hoses have a lot of sea water mineral buildup in 'em, every other hose on the boat that carries sea water will be just about the same shape.

If you decide to replace the hose, the gold standard for sanitation hose is Trident 101. There is a new hose on the market that I think is worth considering. It is sold by Raritan and it has a 5 Year warranty against odor permeation just like the Trident 101. The difference is that it is super flexible and should be easier to install. It's brand new on the market so it will be several years before we know if it is really as odor resistant as the Trident. It looked good to me at the Miami Boat Show last month and I'll be stocking it in my stores. http://www.raritaneng.com/products/holding_tanks/saniflex.html

Carl, muriatic acid won't harm anything in the VacuFlush system or any other toilet...but why would you need it in a toilet that uses fresh water?* If you're thinking it'll clean the tank or tank monitor senders, it won't...'cuz that buildup is animal fats. You'll accomplish a lot more with detergent.

Hop...I'm not sure just how new Raritan's "new" hose really is. They don't make it, the mfr is in Italy (that's all I've been able to find out). It's also a dead ringer for Vetus "premium waste water" hose...
http://www.vetus-shop.com/vetus-waste-water-hose-id-8mm-p-1066.html
...and Vetus doesn't manufacture much if anything, they mostly private label stuff...so I strongly suspect that the Vetus and Raritan hoses are the same hose. Fwiw, it's also considerably more expensive than Trident...


-- Edited by HeadMistress on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 11:32:41 PM

Old Stone wrote:I have hesitated to do this, but given what you say - can I flush some muriatic directly down the head if it is a vacuflush?

Click to expand...

The safer, and much more effective choice for what it looks like you want to achieve is to flush a solution of sodium hydroxide (lye) down the toilets and let it work on the fats and oils and deposits.

The only components that might be damaged are those made of aluminum.

Unfortunately there is no single cure for the crud that builds up in blackwater systems. It takes an acid to remove the calcium and uric acid crystals and it takes a strong alkali to remove the fats and organic residues.

For the last 14 year we have sprayed Clorox spray down the toilet on a regular bases to clean the hoses and smelling fresh, but we do get pumped out every weeks so its not big deal if the kill bacteria/germs DEAD. **15 years on the same hoses with no smell, but we flush with fresh water, and once a weekly bases I flush the hoses clean with Clorox spary which is pump out the next day.***

The best is to conver to fresh water as its not that expensive/hard as you can use a regular domestic water pump that is connect to the toiltet electric button with a one way valve to present back flow.* Again make sure you flush**thoroughly.* ***

The build-up is fairly even all the way around the hose, although I can only see a short way in. I'm assuming it continues through out the length of the hose.

Steve, could you replace your long run with PVC pipe? A lot cheaper than hose.

Not and keep it under the floorboards in the engine room. I wish I could, it would save me money I'd rather spend on something I could actually see or use. Thanks for the idea though.

Slowboat 37 wrote:
Has anyone ever used a snake to clean out the salt build up inside hoses? I am replacing the aft head Y valve and can see about 1/2 to3/4 in build up inside the 1 1/2 in hose. The hose runs about 18/20 ft. to holding tank. I don't see it being a clean and mess free kind of job but easier than r/r with a new hose, or how about a chemical solution or just fresh water to disolve the crystals?



-- Edited by Slowboat 37 on Tuesday 6th of March 2012 02:24:00 PM

Click to expand...

*I might guess that you have 2 problems....salt flush exclusively and too long of a run for a pump flush.

Better use that flush treatment regularly if you go back to the same setup.

My boat had HUGE sanitation hose*issues so I got rid of the sal****er and hand pumps. On the one head...I just removed the hand pump and used an elbow to let it fall into a hose leading to a cheap macerator pump. Now I can use inexpensive vinyl hose to the holding tank*versus expensive sasnitation hose (because nothing really lays in it)...plus guests like the push button flush versus the standard pump flush.


-- Edited by psneeld on Thursday 8th of March 2012 07:45:35 AM

Unless your hoses routinely reach temperatures above 170*F or so the chances of the buildup being salt are virtually nil.

psneeld wrote:My boat had HUGE sanitation hose*issues so I got rid of the sal****er and hand pumps. On the one head...I just removed the hand pump and used an elbow to let it fall into a hose leading to a cheap macerator pump. Now I can use inexpensive vinyl hose to the holding tank*versus expensive sasnitation hose (because nothing really lays in it)...plus guests like the push button flush versus the standard pump flush.

Click to expand...

*Waste doesn't have to lay in a hose to permeate it...and you will find out just how quickly vinyl hose absorbs waste that passes through it.* When it does, bite the bullet and replace it with Trident 101 sanitation hose...it's been on the market for nearly 20 years without a single reported odor permeation failure, so in the end it will actually cost you LESS to re-hose with it once compared to replacing cheap water hose every couple of years.

And if when you sell the boat, also replace that jury-rigged toilet with a real one before you put it on the market...'cuz any moderately knowledgeable buyer who sees something like that on boat the size of yours will wonder what else you jury rigged cheap that he can't see and walk away.

not sure there's more of a chemical reaction than straight salt build up or not.

HeadMistress wrote:psneeld wrote:My boat had HUGE sanitation hose*issues so I got rid of the sal****er and hand pumps. On the one head...I just removed the hand pump and used an elbow to let it fall into a hose leading to a cheap macerator pump. Now I can use inexpensive vinyl hose to the holding tank*versus expensive sasnitation hose (because nothing really lays in it)...plus guests like the push button flush versus the standard pump flush.

Click to expand...

*Waste doesn't have to lay in a hose to permeate it...and you will find out just how quickly vinyl hose absorbs waste that passes through it.* When it does, bite the bullet and replace it with Trident 101 sanitation hose...it's been on the market for nearly 20 years without a single reported odor permeation failure, so in the end it will actually cost you LESS to re-hose with it once compared to replacing cheap water hose every couple of years.

And if when you sell the boat, also replace that jury-rigged toilet with a real one before you put it on the market...'cuz any moderately knowledgeable buyer who sees something like that on boat the size of yours will wonder what else you jury rigged cheap that he can't see and walk away.

*I bet it will go a lot longer than you "guess".

Jury rigged???* I would say that most boat head systems are jury rigged or a flat out a disaster from the factory WITH the manufacturers recommendations.

Mine is simple, inexpensive, easy to repair, etc...etc...hard to say that about MOST marine toilets.

30 year old trawlers usually have a lot more to worry about than that piece of hose. Bought mine with "approved systems that were failed in no time" that's why I designed a "better" system...not one to make someone some money.

Don't call my advice "jury rigged" and I woun't attack your advice on "merchandise".

psneeld wrote:not sure there's more of a chemical reaction than straight salt build up or not.

Click to expand...

*It is easy to tell, taste it.

HeadMistress wrote:,,,,Trident 101 sanitation hose...it's been on the market for nearly 20 years without a single reported odor permeation failure,

Click to expand...

*We used it, it permeated in about a year, we replaced the run with PVC.* So that's one failure that I know of directly.* Not saying its bad stuff, only that it is not totally permeation-proof.

Marin...You used Trident 101--black double walled rubber hose with green stripe? Or was it Trident #148 "Extra Heavy Duty" white sanitation hose (which permeated on my own boat in less than 90 days!)?

The buildup in hoses is sea water calcium carbonate, which forms in anaerobic conditions...such AS the insides of hoses. Salt and urine crystals are also an "ingredient," but only a very minor amount.

RickB wrote:psneeld wrote:not sure there's more of a chemical reaction than straight salt build up or not.

Click to expand...

*It is easy to tell, taste it.

*Nah...I'm no expert... I'll leave it to them.

psneeld wrote:HeadMistress wrote:psneeld wrote:My boat had HUGE sanitation hose*issues so I got rid of the sal****er and hand pumps. On the one head...I just removed the hand pump and used an elbow to let it fall into a hose leading to a cheap macerator pump. Now I can use inexpensive vinyl hose to the holding tank*versus expensive sasnitation hose (because nothing really lays in it)...plus guests like the push button flush versus the standard pump flush.

Click to expand...

*Waste doesn't have to lay in a hose to permeate it...and you will find out just how quickly vinyl hose absorbs waste that passes through it.* When it does, bite the bullet and replace it with Trident 101 sanitation hose...it's been on the market for nearly 20 years without a single reported odor permeation failure, so in the end it will actually cost you LESS to re-hose with it once compared to replacing cheap water hose every couple of years.

And if when you sell the boat, also replace that jury-rigged toilet with a real one before you put it on the market...'cuz any moderately knowledgeable buyer who sees something like that on boat the size of yours will wonder what else you jury rigged cheap that he can't see and walk away.

*I bet it will go a lot longer than you "guess".

Jury rigged???* I would say that most boat head systems are jury rigged or a flat out a disaster from the factory WITH the manufacturers recommendations.

Mine is simple, inexpensive, easy to repair, etc...etc...hard to say that about MOST marine toilets.

30 year old trawlers usually have a lot more to worry about than that piece of hose. Bought mine with "approved systems that were failed in no time" that's why I designed a "better" system...not one to make someone some money.

Don't call my advice "jury rigged" and I woun't attack your advice on "merchandise".

*

I have to agree with Peggie on the "jury rigged" advice.* If it works for you, that's fine, but just as she advised, If I was looking at a boat to buy and saw something like that, I would run, not walk away.* I think this would be typical of most boat buyers.

*

rwidman wrote:psneeld wrote:HeadMistress wrote:psneeld wrote:My boat had HUGE sanitation hose*issues so I got rid of the sal****er and hand pumps. On the one head...I just removed the hand pump and used an elbow to let it fall into a hose leading to a cheap macerator pump. Now I can use inexpensive vinyl hose to the holding tank*versus expensive sasnitation hose (because nothing really lays in it)...plus guests like the push button flush versus the standard pump flush.

Click to expand...

*Waste doesn't have to lay in a hose to permeate it...and you will find out just how quickly vinyl hose absorbs waste that passes through it.* When it does, bite the bullet and replace it with Trident 101 sanitation hose...it's been on the market for nearly 20 years without a single reported odor permeation failure, so in the end it will actually cost you LESS to re-hose with it once compared to replacing cheap water hose every couple of years.

And if when you sell the boat, also replace that jury-rigged toilet with a real one before you put it on the market...'cuz any moderately knowledgeable buyer who sees something like that on boat the size of yours will wonder what else you jury rigged cheap that he can't see and walk away.

*I bet it will go a lot longer than you "guess".

Jury rigged???* I would say that most boat head systems are jury rigged or a flat out a disaster from the factory WITH the manufacturers recommendations.

Mine is simple, inexpensive, easy to repair, etc...etc...hard to say that about MOST marine toilets.

30 year old trawlers usually have a lot more to worry about than that piece of hose. Bought mine with "approved systems that were failed in no time" that's why I designed a "better" system...not one to make someone some money.

Don't call my advice "jury rigged" and I woun't attack your advice on "merchandise".

*

I have to agree with Peggie on the "jury rigged" advice.* If it works for you, that's fine, but just as she advised, If I was looking at a boat to buy and saw something like that, I would run, not walk away.* I think this would be typical of most boat buyers.

*

*Then you too can't see some pretty easy and basic engineering improvements. Cheaper, cheaper to repair..I have one moving part between 2 heads except for commomnly found and easy to repair/replace macerators, easier tubing to holding tanks...interoperability between heads, near silent operation...selfregulating fresh water consumption..ease of operation for newbies....show me one off the shelf system to meet all those and I'll be glad to switch.

One silent flush and most boating*women break out in a big smile and turn to their husbands and ask "can we do that?"...

I'll have the last laugh...do whatever the conventional wisdom does...history proves how well that works out.


-- Edited by psneeld on Thursday 8th of March 2012 05:41:36 PM

The only off the shelf "head" that beats my system is a cedar bucket...

Even FF pointed that out in one of his responses...well as a second "back up" head, I think he pointed out.

The only off the shelf "head" that beats my system is a cedar bucket...

Perhaps ,,But the now defunct BALL HEAD was by far the easiest to live with , IF it could be installed as required.

psneeld wrote:rwidman wrote:psneeld wrote:HeadMistress wrote:psneeld wrote:My boat had HUGE sanitation hose*issues so I got rid of the sal****er and hand pumps. On the one head...I just removed the hand pump and used an elbow to let it fall into a hose leading to a cheap macerator pump. Now I can use inexpensive vinyl hose to the holding tank*versus expensive sasnitation hose (because nothing really lays in it)...plus guests like the push button flush versus the standard pump flush.

Click to expand...

*Waste doesn't have to lay in a hose to permeate it...and you will find out just how quickly vinyl hose absorbs waste that passes through it.* When it does, bite the bullet and replace it with Trident 101 sanitation hose...it's been on the market for nearly 20 years without a single reported odor permeation failure, so in the end it will actually cost you LESS to re-hose with it once compared to replacing cheap water hose every couple of years.

And if when you sell the boat, also replace that jury-rigged toilet with a real one before you put it on the market...'cuz any moderately knowledgeable buyer who sees something like that on boat the size of yours will wonder what else you jury rigged cheap that he can't see and walk away.

*I bet it will go a lot longer than you "guess".

Jury rigged???* I would say that most boat head systems are jury rigged or a flat out a disaster from the factory WITH the manufacturers recommendations.

Mine is simple, inexpensive, easy to repair, etc...etc...hard to say that about MOST marine toilets.

30 year old trawlers usually have a lot more to worry about than that piece of hose. Bought mine with "approved systems that were failed in no time" that's why I designed a "better" system...not one to make someone some money.

Don't call my advice "jury rigged" and I woun't attack your advice on "merchandise".

*

I have to agree with Peggie on the "jury rigged" advice.* If it works for you, that's fine, but just as she advised, If I was looking at a boat to buy and saw something like that, I would run, not walk away.* I think this would be typical of most boat buyers.

*

*Then you too can't see some pretty easy and basic engineering improvements. Cheaper, cheaper to repair..I have one moving part between 2 heads except for commomnly found and easy to repair/replace macerators, easier tubing to holding tanks...interoperability between heads, near silent operation...selfregulating fresh water consumption..ease of operation for newbies....show me one off the shelf system to meet all those and I'll be glad to switch.

One silent flush and most boating*women break out in a big smile and turn to their husbands and ask "can we do that?"...

I'll have the last laugh...do whatever the conventional wisdom does...history proves how well that works out.



-- Edited by psneeld on Thursday 8th of March 2012 05:41:36 PM

I don't think you took the time to think about my response.* Please read it again:

" If it works for you, that's fine, but just as she advised, If I was looking at a boat to buy and saw something like that, I would run, not walk away.* I think this would be typical of most boat buyers."

*

rwidman wrote:edited...

Maybe the opposite???

Ever own or spend time in an RV?

All my experienced boat friends/professional mariners*saw in 10 seconds my improvements over conventional head setups...

Either an idiot will buy my 30 plus year old trawler because they know nothing and the price will be right or someone looking for a 30 year old trawler that has been brought way back from the dead and is in better than new shape in many areas and ready for liveaboard or long term cruising.

So I have NO qualms about my personal engineering skills and whether they will stand the test of time.



-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 9th of March 2012 07:29:23 AM


-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 9th of March 2012 07:33:21 AM

Obviously, this conversation is going nowhere so have a nice day.


-- Edited by rwidman on Friday 9th of March 2012 08:10:07 AM

HeadMistress wrote:
Marin...You used Trident 101--black double walled rubber hose with green stripe? Or was it Trident #148 "Extra Heavy Duty" white sanitation hose (which permeated on my own boat in less than 90 days!)?

Click to expand...

*No.* It's white, not black with a green stripe, so I was wrong on that one.* But it was not the Trident 148, either.* This was a number of years ago and the hose was recommended at that time by everyone as being the most permeation-resistant hose on the planet outside of PVC.* So I assumed that was the stuff you were talking about.* Without looking at it in the boat I can't tell you the make and model we used, but we were very disappointed with it.

We need to replace a section where PVC won't work, so we'll inquire at Marine Sanitation in Seattle about the Trident 101.* Perhaps that will be our solution.* Thanks.