Second opinion on repair quote?

I had a mechanic come out because I knew my harmonic balancer bracket was broken. During the diagnosis, they noticed what they believe to be an exhaust leak. They stated they could "hear" a 'tish tish tish' sound while the engine was running. They prepared the following quote for me:

Labor
Install Harmonic Balancer- STBD 237.50T
Labor
Repair Exhaust Leak- STBD 237.50T
Part
Harmonic Balancer- STBD 125.99T
Part
Manifold Gasket 14.00T
Part
Elbow Gaskets 20.00T
Misc. Shop Supplies
5% of total labor hours for misc. materials/supplies (30 Hour Cap) 21.25
SUBTOTAL 656.24
TAX 52.39
TOTAL $708.63



Fast forward two rescheduled appointments and they came out to fix everything. After repairing the harmonic balancer, they attempted to repair the exhaust leak. However, they stated they were concerned that the bolts were going to break off. If they do, they've given me this worst case scenario quote.

Labor with Helper
Remove Manifold by Force-STBD 1,120.00T
Labor with Helper
Remove Heat Exchanger and Various- STBD 280.00T
Labor with Helper
Remove Intake and Head- STBD 420.00T
Helper Labor
Transport Head to Shop, Prep and Inspect for Overhaul 135.00T
Labor with Helper
Clean Surfaces- Mount Head Valve Train-STBD 490.00T
Labor with Helper
Mount Intake and Exhaust Manifold- STBD 350.00T
Labor
Run Engine 95.00T
Part
Head Gasket 80.84T
Part
Intake Gasket 91.62T
Part
Exhaust Manifold 415.00T
Part
Spacer 252.00T
Part
Mixing Elbow 263.00T
CHV-47-0000
Exhaust Manifold Gasket 9.99T
18-0897
Merc. Riser Gasket-Center Rise Exhaust Elbow 4.37T
18-2849-1
Merc. Exhaust Elbow Gasket- PKG of 2 12.51T
21414-PK
Antifreeze 77.94T
15W40- GAL
Oil- Rotella 15W-40 Gal 56.97T
Part
Head Rebuild 295.00T
Part
Oil Filter 5.57T
Misc. Shop Supplies
5% of total labor hours for misc. materials/supplies (30 Hour Cap) 106.25
Environmental Fee
Oil/Coolant/Fuel disposal fee- Per gallon 4.05

SUBTOTAL 4,565.11
TAX 367.52
TOTAL $4,932.63


Am I being taken for a ride, and should I get a second opinion? Or does this sound plausible?

That quote seems reasonable to me. The only bit that seems high is removing the manifold, which seems 50% high to me. But, I haven't seen the boat or arrangement.

I'm not sure I see the reason forbthe head work, though.

I guess it depends on your local market. From my experience this seems reasonable compared to what I pay in Washington. They're probably being conservative since they don't know what might go wrong.

You are not getting a deal. You are not being taken for a ride. You did ask for a worst case quote.

tiltrider1 said:

You are not getting a deal. You are not being taken for a ride. You did ask for a worst case quote.

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But what I don't understand is that they stated it was an exhaust head gasket. Why are we not replacing ALL the other parts listed?

It`s a head gasket, not an exhaust head gasket. The quote is predicated on the bolts breaking. My guess is if they don`t, the head work should not be needed.
They priced a lot of parts, I assume the labor includes replacing those parts. It might be easier to understand if you have a schematic "exploded view" of the engine in front of you.
As to the $, from over here,no idea, but it`s amazing what a failing exhaust gasket and 2 iffy bolts turn into once the head has to come off.

Is the mechanic / shop a dealer for the engine and what is their hourly labor rate? If not a dealer, are they very experienced with your make and model engine? I don't like to pay for on the job training. I also prefer mechanics who take more time to finesse stuck bolts as opposed to creating more work.

I do give them credit for not preceeding, ringing the bolts off, and essentially limiting your options.

I find their worse case price high, but possibly not unreasonable based on not knowing engine model and difficulty of head R and R.

Ted

toocoys said:

I had a mechanic come out because I knew my harmonic balancer bracket was broken. During the diagnosis, they noticed what they believe to be an exhaust leak. They stated they could "hear" a 'tish tish tish' sound while the engine was running. They prepared the following quote for me:

Labor
Install Harmonic Balancer- STBD 237.50T
Labor
Repair Exhaust Leak- STBD 237.50T
Part
Harmonic Balancer- STBD 125.99T
Part
Manifold Gasket 14.00T
Part
Elbow Gaskets 20.00T
Misc. Shop Supplies
5% of total labor hours for misc. materials/supplies (30 Hour Cap) 21.25
SUBTOTAL 656.24
TAX 52.39
TOTAL $708.63



Fast forward two rescheduled appointments and they came out to fix everything. After repairing the harmonic balancer, they attempted to repair the exhaust leak. However, they stated they were concerned that the bolts were going to break off. If they do, they've given me this worst case scenario quote.

Labor with Helper
Remove Manifold by Force-STBD 1,120.00T
Labor with Helper
Remove Heat Exchanger and Various- STBD 280.00T
Labor with Helper
Remove Intake and Head- STBD 420.00T
Helper Labor
Transport Head to Shop, Prep and Inspect for Overhaul 135.00T
Labor with Helper
Clean Surfaces- Mount Head Valve Train-STBD 490.00T
Labor with Helper
Mount Intake and Exhaust Manifold- STBD 350.00T
Labor
Run Engine 95.00T
Part
Head Gasket 80.84T
Part
Intake Gasket 91.62T
Part
Exhaust Manifold 415.00T
Part
Spacer 252.00T
Part
Mixing Elbow 263.00T
CHV-47-0000
Exhaust Manifold Gasket 9.99T
18-0897
Merc. Riser Gasket-Center Rise Exhaust Elbow 4.37T
18-2849-1
Merc. Exhaust Elbow Gasket- PKG of 2 12.51T
21414-PK
Antifreeze 77.94T
15W40- GAL
Oil- Rotella 15W-40 Gal 56.97T
Part
Head Rebuild 295.00T
Part
Oil Filter 5.57T
Misc. Shop Supplies
5% of total labor hours for misc. materials/supplies (30 Hour Cap) 106.25
Environmental Fee
Oil/Coolant/Fuel disposal fee- Per gallon 4.05

SUBTOTAL 4,565.11
TAX 367.52
TOTAL $4,932.63


Am I being taken for a ride, and should I get a second opinion? Or does this sound plausible?

Click to expand...

$57 for a gallon of Rotella?

It appears they are being reasonable and responsible giving you a worst case quote. If the potential broken bolts in question are those that fasten the exhaust manifold to the head and they were to break in such way the head had to go to a machine shop then you enter the worst case scenario. A less responsible shop would tear into the work, hoping for the best, then when the bolts break hit you with the ugly $4,932.63 surprise.

I see some parts listed as Merc. Does that mean it's a Mercruiser gasser? If so this is one of the times you'll be happy you have a gasser not a diesel. I just got two quotes on head gaskets, head reconditioning and fuel pump seals on Cat 3208s. Average of the two is $8,875 per engine. If your engine is a diesel then the quote you have been given is a great deal!

Gasser or diesel if it were me I'd do some research into the costs of short block, long block and complete drop in. Just in case it's worse than the worst case.

A good repairman can remove broken bolts without removing the head. I have done it. One thing is to use an induction heating gun before trying to back the bolts out. If they don't have one, I wouldn't deal with them. They are common in the automotive world. I would think the marine businesses would be an early adopter just to bring in business by saving people money due to broken bolts.



When I remove broken bolts, I weld a nut onto the broken part. The heat will usually break the threads loose and it should back out. The other thing I do is grind the broken part flat, center punch it, and drill it out in steps until I can retap the original threads. I only up the thread size if absolutely necessary.




These are made with different tips for accessing tight areas. The good ones are about half the size of the one in the video and extremely versatile. This one is more of an advanced DIY unit.

You didn't get taken for ride, you got screwed!


As soon as work exceeded the estimate you should have advised


THe $57 for a $18 gal of oil is the biggest red flag

Does the oil charge include time?...from getting it, transporting it to adding it, to checking it, to discarding the empty?


Sometimes you have to step back and see the forest for the trees..


Out of working on houses, cars, aircraft, heavy equipment, and boats.... Boats stand out as being one of the more difficult of all.


Sure you can be cheated, but also look at the difficulty involved.

lipets said:

You didn't get taken for ride, you got screwed!


As soon as work exceeded the estimate you should have advised


THe $57 for a $18 gal of oil is the biggest red flag

Click to expand...

What V8 engine only uses 1 gallon of oil. My guess is something got lost in translation.

Short blocks go for $3500 then you have labor. Complete drop in’s go for $14,000 plus labor.

Bolts always break. It's part of dealing with marine exhaust systems. Drilling out the bolt and installing a helicoil should be a 30 min job. Assuming $100/hr rate, they are gouging you 10 hours for a 2 or 3 hour job.

You indicated there was an exhaust leak. You didn't say where the leak was, but I am guessing it was an exhaust manifold gasket. The yard gave a detailed professional quote for a head overhaul. I don't see the connection between removing an exhaust manifold and a quote that wants to to remove the whole head. Seems excessive. Get a second opinion.

SoWhat said:

Bolts always break. It's part of dealing with marine exhaust systems. Drilling out the bolt and installing a helicoil should be a 30 min job. Assuming $100/hr rate, they are gouging you 10 hours for a 2 or 3 hour job.

You indicated there was an exhaust leak. You didn't say where the leak was, but I am guessing it was an exhaust manifold gasket. The yard gave a detailed professional quote for a head overhaul. I don't see the connection between removing an exhaust manifold and a quote that wants to to remove the whole head. Seems excessive. Get a second opinion.

Click to expand...

Bolts really shouldn't always break, but they sure can. Most mechanics just get to anxious. I've found that if one takes his time, use heat and a great penetrant like Kroil, they come out fine. I've never broken a bolt, out of hundreds, however, mostly aircraft engines which are probably a bit easier. Now, if they do break, they can certainly take longer than 30 minutes, especially if they are hardened or stainless, and the break is below the surface.

Look for someone that specializes in removing broken automotive studs and bolts. They are mobile and bring an arsenal of tools to remove a stubborn fastener.

I had an auto dealership break several studs while removing an exhaust manifold that required head removal on a turbo diesel. They wanted $6,500 for the R&R. I found a stud removal specialist and he removed the broken studs without removing the engine. He charged $550 for removing 3 broken studs.

Check with hot rod, auto racing and Harly shops for a mobile stud removal specialist recommendation. They are difficult to locate because they do other things and stud removal is a sideline.

What helps a lot, put marine grease on the bolts. Marine grease tends to stay in place and not wash away. Or if it gets hot, use antiseize.

I do all my own work. I also have rebuilt car engines and transmissions and gear boxes, and I rebuilt my velvet drive. But I can imagine if I was much older, I may not be able to physically do the work.

One good technique, weld a nut onto the broken stud. The heat will break the rust. Then you can most likely spin it out.

An oxy acetylene torch has saved me a lot over the years.

You could save 5G if you learn mechanics. If you just broke loose the exhaust bolts you'd save a bundle.

From many years of engine work - If you take rusted nuts and bolts loose with an impact wrench, rarely will you break off a bolt or stud. If you use a breaker bar and maybe a pipe extension, many will twist and break. You can rent an electric impact wrench. Or buy one for almost the same cost at Harbor Freight.

Better yet, use a lube designed to penetrate steel threads first. I use Kerney Rust Cutter (on eBay about $15). It includes a mild acid that penetrates and eats the rust. On badly rusted threads, sometimes after applying, I can turn the nut by hand. Nuts, bolts and studs. Also work good on piston rings seized to the cylinder. It's made for high voltage transmission tower linemen or is it line persons?

Portage_Bay said:

I see some parts listed as Merc. Does that mean it's a Mercruiser gasser?

Click to expand...

Marine Power 454's

lipets said:

You didn't get taken for ride, you got screwed!


As soon as work exceeded the estimate you should have advised


THe $57 for a $18 gal of oil is the biggest red flag

Click to expand...

The work HAS NOT been done yet. This is their quote for 'in case' the bolts break. They supposedly 'have a plan' to attempt to prevent breakage at all costs, but if they can't this is what the cost would be.

Lepke said:

You could save 5G if you learn mechanics.

Click to expand...

I could also save thousands for dental work, but I'm not going to dental school! :lol:

This is one of those things that I'd rather have repaired professionally, especially because we live aboard, and their gas engines. This falls in the "be overly safe" category for me.

Another extraction method for snapped off studs is precision drilling the stud itself inside its metal host and picking out the edge bits left in the threads. Could be worth getting an extraction specialist in before pulling the head if the bolts break and the mechanic doesn`t have the skills. One step at a time.

BruceK said:

Another extraction method for snapped off studs is precision drilling the stud itself inside its metal host and picking out the edge bits left in the threads. Could be worth getting an extraction specialist in before pulling the head if the bolts break and the mechanic doesn`t have the skills. One step at a time.

Click to expand...

Extraction Specialist? This isn't the space shuttle. I recently replaced my exhaust elbows. 8 bolts. (grade 2) I used my usual techniques. Soak in PB Blaster, hit with MAPP gas, soak again, over several days. snapped 1 of the 8 and stripped another one overtorquing.

Took me 30 minutes each to drill larger hole, cut threads, and install helicoil. Very unlikely you will able to be able to drill a hole in a bolt without damaging the threads. Difficult to start a drlll exactly in the center as the recessed bolt has a curved surface. If the bolt is still sticking up you can weld a nut on it. I work on my boat in the water and don't have a welder, torch, or large compressor onboard.

Any mechanic will have a helicoil kit in his toolbox. It's simple and quick. Anyone who claims they will remove marine exhaust systems without breaking a bolt is blowing smoke. (or will take so long the final cost is 10X what it should be)

toocoys said:

The work HAS NOT been done yet. This is their quote for 'in case' the bolts break. They supposedly 'have a plan' to attempt to prevent breakage at all costs, but if they can't this is what the cost would be.

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Makes it sound like they are prepping you for a much bigger paycheck.
Very few bolts will break unless they are totally rusted up. Most engine bolts are at least grade 3.

I have switched a lot of exhaust bolts to SS. Use them along with antiseize and or grease, and they wont get stuck.

Bearing in mind if you're using anything on the threads, using it SPARINGLY. Any material added in the threads will cause torque changes. Do not just goop up the threads and then crank on it.

wkearney99 said:

Bearing in mind if you're using anything on the threads, using it SPARINGLY. Any material added in the threads will cause torque changes. Do not just goop up the threads and then crank on it.

Click to expand...

Agree. Reduce the torque value by 20 or 30% of you use anti-seize.

Root cause?

toocoys said:

I had a mechanic come out because I knew my harmonic balancer bracket was broken. During the diagnosis, they noticed what they believe to be an exhaust leak. They stated they could "hear" a 'tish tish tish' sound while the engine was running. ...

Click to expand...

Lots of good responses here.

I think your mechanic is wise to prepare you for a 'worst case scenario' of broken bolts.

I am thinking about why this one exhaust manifold gasket started leaking in the first place (you have four of them). Typically these things don't just start leaking for no reason. This leads me to the failed harmonic balancer as a possible root cause.

When a harmonic balancer fails, the engine begins vibrating more than it should. When you think about the mass of the very heavy exhaust components bolted up to your cylinder head, a marine engine that is vibrating more than it should will put increased strain on the exhaust manifold-to-cylinder head bolts. If this condition continues for some time, the repetitive strain on these bolts can be expected to result in metal fatigue/failure in one or more of these bolts. This would first show up as an exhaust-gasket leak.

Many years ago I had a 1970's vintage in-line four-banger in a used runabout I'd just bought. First time out, a cheap after-market spark-plug wire failed and I had to limp home on three cylinders for several hours -- obviously with the engine vibrating like crazy.

Next trip out (with new plugs/wires) the boat ran perfectly for a few hours until I started hearing 'tish-tish' and on investigation noticed a broken bolt on the exhaust manifold. Twenty minutes later a second bolt broke and now I'm limping home again because the 'tish-tish' was now a 'pop-pop'. Looking at the exhaust system, it was easy to see that the first bolt that broke was the the one closest to the 'center of mass' of the cast-iron exhaust elbow.

In many cases, the automotive engines that are used in marine applications experience failure modes you'd never expect in a car. Compared to thin sheet metal automotive exhaust components, the huge increase in the mass of the cast iron water-cooled exhaust components that are bolted to the cylinder head is just one example.

If you have reason to believe that the harmonic balancer has been in a failed state for an extended period of time, chances are that some of those bolts are fatigued and ready to break or perhaps already broken.

If you are fortunate and the exhaust manifold bolts DO come out...replace them with new ones.

I would also have your guy check your motor mounts. If they are the typical rubber-filled type, they will also fail pretty quickly if the harmonic balancer was not working, and this would also increase engine vibration and strain on the exhaust manifold bolts.

Another thought...if the STBD harmonic balancer failed, then the other one won't be far behind. The rubber that these parts are made of does dry out over time.

I asked for local recommendations from my local Yachting group and they pretty much all recommended one guy. Apparently he used to work on those 1,500hp offshore racing boats. I told him what was going on and he said it sounds fishy. He said a normal gasket shouldn’t cost that much, even if I DO have to have the manifold pulled due to broken bolts. But he also said that broken bolts aren’t that big a deal and mentioned the helicoil and some other things y’all mentioned.

Anyway, he’s coming out in three weeks to look at it, give me a second opinion and quote, and quite possibly earn the business.

toocoys said:

I could also save thousands for dental work, but I'm not going to dental school! :lol:

This is one of those things that I'd rather have repaired professionally, especially because we live aboard, and their gas engines. This falls in the "be overly safe" category for me.

Click to expand...

Learning to do your own work does not require going to Dental School.....or any other school. I do all my own work and am fully self taught.

First verify there is an exhaust leak. Run the engine with a CO monitor close to the suspected source.
An impact gun will almost always remove stuck bolts. If that doesnt work drill out with a left hand bit. The heat and drill bite will usually spin it right out.
Don't waste money on screw extractors. They almost never work and will certainly not work if the impact gun didn't do the job.