Navigation redundancy???

Here is a big question for the active cruisers...

Do you have Navigation and especially depth redundancy in your system?

Do you have redundancy down the the circuit breaker level?

Do you have redundant mapping sources?

Do you think these things are important?

Here’s what I have, and this is at the top of my mind because I just added the last part of the redundant equation.

I have an older Furuno VX2 Nav system. I have three displays in the system

The “port side” has it’s own breaker that powers the port display which has the RADAR, and a GPS sensor attached, as well as a chart card. It also powers the port black box sounder module, and the port layer 2 switch.

The “starboard side” has it’s own breaker that powers the two starboard displays. One of these displays has a GPS sensor attached, as well as a chart card. The breaker also powers the AIS and the starboard black box sounder, as well as the starboard layer 2 switch.

If I loose the depth reading all I do is flip a switch on the dash to power down one black box sounder and power up the other one. It takes about 30 seconds to regain depth readings. That way the two sounders do not interfere with each other.

The only non redundant parts of the system are the AIS and the RADAR. AIS I consider a non critical function, and RADAR I think is an acceptable risk.

We all boat in different areas. I am currently in Alaska and it can be difficult to get parts here in a hurry to many locations. My cruising plans include Baja California, which is similar or even worse for getting quick parts, so I feel that Nav redundancy is a pretty critical part of the cruising safety equation.

All parts issues aside, I feel that at a bare minumum depth redundancy should be something every boater considers in their voyage plans.

I think for most of us, permanently wired redundancy is a bit over the top. Maybe for long range, blue water cruisers, but not me.


I use an iPad running AquaMap which I keep plugged into the helm for redundancy. It is on a separate breaker and can operate for a few hours with no power.


I have never thought about depth redundancy and since the depth is displayed on the MFD, I have no redundancy for this item. But if you navigate properly, you can live without depth, right ;-).


David

A lightening strike will take out all that stuff in one go. Best to have at least some paper charts as well. More of a problem on the east coast. I've had problems on the networked system that basically froze the whole thing, navigated by iPhone back to the dock at night, in weather.

An RDF and a Handheld VHF radio, both small battery operated. Both in/near a lifeboat. That is redundant.

I run 2 computers (desktop and laptop) with different nav programs, separate inputs. 2 radars, several radios. I have several GPS receivers, some older kept as backup. All 12v radios, radars, GPS, etc., have a backup deep cycle battery bank that automatically switches on with a loss of normal 12v power. I carry basic area charts. Old 12v inverter is available for emergency 120ac power, current 48v inverter normally supplies 120/240ac 24/7, 2-14kw generators, twin mains.
I don't cross oceans anymore, but usually cross the Gulf of Alaska from Dixon Entrance and sometimes from Astoria. I've been far out in the Aleutians visiting WWII sites.

ksanders said:

Here is a big question for the active cruisers...

Do you have Navigation and especially depth redundancy in your system?

Do you have redundancy down the the circuit breaker level?

Do you have redundant mapping sources?

Do you think these things are important?

Click to expand...

Yes, sort of, yes, and yes.

Nav is a fixed Furuno NN3D chartplotter/MFD, a laptop with TimeZero, at least two tablets with 3x nav apps each. Depth is two separate fixed units, one simple DST, the other a Fishfinder with DST.

Sort of is about the various platforms; none are dependdent on only a single circuit.

Charts are NOAA raster and vector (2x, MFD and laptop), plus another NOAA raster on a tablet app (MX Mariner), plus C-Map on a tablet app (Plan2Nav, being superceded by Embark), plus Transas charts on a tablet app (iSailor).

We also have VHF redundancy, two fixed, one handheld.

Radar, AIS, and autopilot only 1 each.

-Chris

How about a paper chart. Hard for it to fail. Seems like a lot of people have gotten a long way from using a paper chart or never used one to begin with. Try it, go buy a chart and on your next trip navigate off the chart, I think a lot of people will be surprised at how interesting and engaging it is. You have to pay attention and look at your surroundings and think about what you are doing rather than just look at a screen.

How much redundancy really depends on the use of the boat, level of safety the operator wants and the cost.

Overall, NONE of the about are absolutely paramount for most of us. I'd bet that the average person here, if we lost ALL electronics, phone, Ipad and everything, it would not be a life or death situation... not even close. It might be awkward coming into a marina without notice, but certainly doable.

However, redundancy for navigation and communication are so cheap in the whole cost of things, it's easy and cheap to have a few backups.

A lot of us operate with one plotter (a few with none). An Ipad and/or phone is a cheap backup and will get us home.

Adding a second depth tranducer at the time the boat is hauled is relatively cheap. I put two in when the boat was hauled for paint and to me only a few hours including wiring (and I'm just a weekend mechanic). Depth is nice to have.

There's a lot of us that operate without a back up engine!

As for radar, there's multi million dollar jets that fly 8000 miles at a time with a revenue of almost a million dollars per flight that only have one radar. We can easily do without a back up, however, they are cheap and you can get a new one for only $1000 if you wish.

And how many have a back up fridge? God forbid if the beer gets warm.

Now, if you're an ocean voyager like Richard, backups may be a bit more important. For us coastal cruisers, not so much.

I have total chart plotting redundancy but kind of by accident. I have a complete Raymarine system. Then I have a computer with its own AIS and GPS system. I do not have Depth redundancy but I find I only need the depth sounder to figure out anchor scope. I do not have Radar redundancy.

Sextant, and training on how to use it.
























Not!

Navionics on an ipad.

Paper charts.

Only one depth sounder...really should get an el-cheapo one as a back up.

1980's GPS.

Modern radio.

Spot Messenger if all else (including the boat) fails.

Lots of electronic redundancy.

Garmin 5212 primary
Garmin 540 backup and anchor drag alarm duty
Laptop with Open Capn for planning

Cellphone with Garmin BlueChart Mobile for Active Captain data plus Navionics app

Tablet with AquaMaps app



Ye old manuel systems:
Left eye and right eye.
Maptech Chart Kits

I'm for redundancy.

I have installed in the pilothouse, which is the only nav station:

2 Radars, one 10kw open array and one 4 kw dome.

2 Depthsounders, one DS only and the other has GPS and chartplotting capability. Each DS with it's own in-hull transducer.

2 VHF radios, one VHF only and the other with GPS and AIS capability. Each VHF with it's own antenna.

1 Laptop running Nobeltec, which is the primary chartplotter.

1 Autopilot

1 Stand alone GPS

All the above is permanently installed with each instrument having it's own dedicated circuit breaker. The only interfacing is between laptop, GPS, AIS and autopilot.

In addition to the above, I have stored on the boat, another complete autopilot, another laptop with Nobeltec, handheld GPS and VHF and complete paper charts for our cruising area.

About 18 years ago we were approaching Friday Harbor in fog with about 200 foot visibility when the only radar quit. We had a chartplotter and radar - no AIS. The last radar screen showed a Washington State Ferry coming into Friday Harbor about 1/8 mile from us and a swarm of pleasure boats going in and out of the harbor.

We were able to get a new radar motor from Anacortes, repaired the radar and continued the summer cruise.

As soon as we came home, purchased a second radar.

Another time, we were negotiating through rocks in Beware Passage in the Broughtons when the depthsounder quit. Bought the second depthsounder when we got home.

What we do now is use alternate radars every other day unless range or close maneuvering requires a specific radar. When there is fog, the 4 kw is on 1/8 mile and the other 4 miles. The depth sounders are alternated daily unless navigating a shallow tricky area.

We boat for 2 to 3 months a year in remote locations and equipment malfunctions can spoil a trip so I rather be prepared. In most remote places, replacement equipment or a technicians are either non-existent or very very expensive. Parts can be flown in by floatplane but expensive.

Redundancy in nav equipment is a must in my opinion and you seem to have it with 2 displays each with dedicated gps antenna. Communication redundancy can be covered with VHF/DSC and handheld. I prefer depth redundancy as well and have 2 transducers.
Autopilot, AIS, and radar can be single systems. if you run at night or in frequent fog you might add some spare parts but not complete systems.

Only addition I would make is an EPIRB (and a lot of spare circuit breakers)

I personally use my iPad as primary tool due to ease of updating charts, ease of use, weather apps, manual storage, etc. My iPhone also has navionics and weather apps. I keep chartbooks on board in case lightning takes everything out.

sean9c said:

How about a paper chart. Hard for it to fail. Seems like a lot of people have gotten a long way from using a paper chart or never used one to begin with. Try it, go buy a chart and on your next trip navigate off the chart, I think a lot of people will be surprised at how interesting and engaging it is. You have to pay attention and look at your surroundings and think about what you are doing rather than just look at a screen.

Click to expand...

OK you have a paper chart in your hand.

it’s night, or foggy.

Where Exactly are you?

How deep is the water under your keel.

That my friend is why I have redundant systems.

syjos said:

I'm for redundancy.

I have installed in the pilothouse, which is the only nav station:

2 Radars, one 10kw open array and one 4 kw dome.

2 Depthsounders, one DS only and the other has GPS and chartplotting capability. Each DS with it's own in-hull transducer.

2 VHF radios, one VHF only and the other with GPS and AIS capability. Each VHF with it's own antenna.

1 Laptop running Nobeltec, which is the primary chartplotter.

1 Autopilot

1 Stand alone GPS

All the above is permanently installed with each instrument having it's own dedicated circuit breaker. The only interfacing is between laptop, GPS, AIS and autopilot.

In addition to the above, I have stored on the boat, another complete autopilot, another laptop with Nobeltec, handheld GPS and VHF and complete paper charts for our cruising area.

About 18 years ago we were approaching Friday Harbor in fog with about 200 foot visibility when the only radar quit. We had a chartplotter and radar - no AIS. The last radar screen showed a Washington State Ferry coming into Friday Harbor about 1/8 mile from us and a swarm of pleasure boats going in and out of the harbor.

We were able to get a new radar motor from Anacortes, repaired the radar and continued the summer cruise.

As soon as we came home, purchased a second radar.

Another time, we were negotiating through rocks in Beware Passage in the Broughtons when the depthsounder quit. Bought the second depthsounder when we got home.

What we do now is use alternate radars every other day unless range or close maneuvering requires a specific radar. When there is fog, the 4 kw is on 1/8 mile and the other 4 miles. The depth sounders are alternated daily unless navigating a shallow tricky area.

We boat for 2 to 3 months a year in remote locations and equipment malfunctions can spoil a trip so I rather be prepared. In most remote places, replacement equipment or a technicians are either non-existent or very very expensive. Parts can be flown in by floatplane but expensive.

Click to expand...

Yep, that’s the way I feel about it!

ksanders said:

OK you have a paper chart in your hand.

it’s night, or foggy.

Where Exactly are you?

How deep is the water under your keel.

That my friend is why I have redundant systems.

Click to expand...

A First Nations (Indigenous) friend of mine was down the channel from Kitamaat, in mid winter, with another friend when they were teenagers in a small open outboard boat. Bad idea, but they were teenagers after all.

They got delayed and made their way home in the dark and in a snow storm.

His friend had spent a lot of time fishing and hunting with his father and grandfather. He found his way home by recognizing wave patterns as they rebounded off steep rocky shores, or the way they bent around islands and made crisscrossing wave sets. He also yelled into the snowy dark occasionally to hear his echo off steep shores invisible in the dark.

Point of the story is; some people posses skills long forgotten and what seems impossible to you and me, is possible.

Seiwa explorer3 chart plotter head unit with dedicated 23 inch monitor
Opencpn chart plotter on laptop connected to another 23 inch monitor
2 tablets with navionics
A 3rd tablet with "all in one offline charts for android"
2 handheld GPS (mobile phone)
A drawer full of paper

JRC radar
Soon to get a new 4g as well to overlay on opencpn

Tmq ap500 autopilot
Complete spare unit just in case

1 Koden fishfinder
1 depth sounder, numbers only and a heart stoppingly loud alarm

1 vhf radio
Toying with the idea of HF if I can get a cheap 2nd hand commercial unit at the right price.

No AIS yet but will get one within 6 mths

Dinghy also has a 5 inch plotter/fishfinder that could come into play if needs be.

Seevee said:

.

And how many have a back up fridge? God forbid if the beer gets warm.

.

Click to expand...

Indeed.

Main fridge is a two door 500litre
Bar fridge in lounge is 125 litre with very small freezer
Bar fridge in wheelhouse is 125 litre with very small freezer
Also have a 100 litre 5 draw freezer

All run on 240v via inverter, battery, solar.

Soon to install spare inverter/charger as a just in case.

Kevin made a really good point in his first post that seems to have slipped away. Redundancy, and also spares, can be as much about what it takes to get going again when something fails.


There are places where you can be stuck waiting for parts for a very long time, causing significant disruption to your cruising. For most US coastal cruising, this just isn't a concern because you can get anything, anywhere, in a day or two.


Not so in other places. Even just 70 miles away in the Bahamas, "overnight" shipping takes about a week. In Alaska, you can get stuff quickly to a major airport, but from there it can be a challenge. In most areas the USPS works best, but some places like Amazon can't ship to General Delivery. Don't ask how I know....


And then there is Mexico. Something shipping via the major carriers has about a 50% chance of ever being seen again. There are enterprising people who do regular courier runs to the US, and I hear are the most reliable way to get something for your boat.


So redundancy, and spares which are just a slower version of redundancy, is not only about having an alternate display to glance at if one fails, it's about the level if disruption to your trip that you want to risk. And of course all that is heavily influenced by where you cruise. If you operate in one area, can recognized the ripples on the water, and can echo-sound with your voice, no redundancy is required. Or if you otherwise know the waters and the hazards and can repair any problem within a day or two, no problem. But if a failure will place you at risk because of unfamiliar or more hazardous waters, or will cause a week or month delay in your cruise, then redundancy starts to look pretty important.

"Here is a big question for the active cruisers..."

Do you have Navigation and especially depth redundancy in your system?

* NO one hand held GPS is sufficient .

Do you have redundancy down the the circuit breaker level?

*NO but the unit uses AA batt or ship DC powered.

Do you have redundant mapping sources?

*Yes old charts frequently duplicate areas.

Do you think these things are important?

*Yes having no charts would be a drag.But with enough buoys not a big deal , in most traveling.

Some of my AICW strip charts are 1970's era.
Comparing them to new chart books, Only changes are buoy count has increased many times .

So a penciled in new number is only requirement.

Depth sounder is lead line waiting on anchor crown.

Back up sounder is 1 1/2 inch 15 ft pole with painted depth for 6 ft , to measure where its deep over the side or in a dink.

Cruising is my version of boating , in my old job there were always electric toys to manage.I don't miss them.

I do love the auto pilot , noise reducing headphones and repurposed car rear view mirror and hyd windlass.

sean9c said:

How about a paper chart. Hard for it to fail. Seems like a lot of people have gotten a long way from using a paper chart or never used one to begin with. Try it, go buy a chart and on your next trip navigate off the chart, I think a lot of people will be surprised at how interesting and engaging it is. You have to pay attention and look at your surroundings and think about what you are doing rather than just look at a screen.

Click to expand...

Amen
I'm with you Sean. I still like to do route planning on charts then enter waypoints into my MFD. More often I plan ahead at home and enter waypoint & routes on the laptop and transfer to GPS/MFD.
I always like to see the big picture in addition to the details and have never been as comfortable just zooming out a display...
I guess what ever works for individuals is OK... no wrong or right but I think being able to work from charts gives a user a different level of familiarity with their routes than just pointing and picking locations... old school I guess

I never understand the concept of thinking raster charts on a computer are somehow different than paper charts.


They are exactly the same, one just being a picture of the other.


They can't go "down" for navigation....unless your electronic device quits. Just the little ship symbol goes away.


While I agree that some planning is easier on paper, but then again I can plot out a route and print/send a list of waypoints in minutes that would take WAYYYYYY longer than doing it on paper.

psneeld said:

I never understand the concept of thinking raster charts on a computer are somehow different than paper charts.


They are exactly the same, one just being a picture of the other.


They can't go "down" for navigation....unless your electronic device quits. Just the little ship symbol goes away.


While I agree that some planning is easier on paper, but then again I can plot out a route and print/send a list of waypoints in minutes that would take WAYYYYYY longer than doing it on paper.

Click to expand...

Time Zero on an iPad. Raster charts like I grew up with. Just feels right.

I have made some ocean passages on expensive boats with all of the electronics that one could ask for. Always had a paper chart with hourly updated position fixes. That is redundancy in its purist form.

Know of boats that had paper charts blow overboard.


Have 2 paper charts?... or is an electronic copy backup for a paper one?.

psneeld said:

Know of boats that had paper charts blow overboard.

Click to expand...

Perhaps a "Chart Overboard" drill is in order?

We cruised the Bahamas (Ft.Lauderdaleto Bimini, around and through the Berry Islands, all around Nassau, to Morgans Harbor, to Cat Cay, and back to Fort Lauderdale), much of it at night, in 1987 with nothing but a compass, a depth finder, and several photocopied charts with all the detail of a restaurant placemat.

We didn’t die, and only ran aground one time (in Bimini Harbor no less!). Losing electronics is annoying, but shouldn’t be life or boat threatening to anyone who knows basic navigation.

Group9 said:

We cruised the Bahamas (Ft.Lauderdaleto Bimini, around and through the Berry Islands, all around Nassau, to Morgans Harbor, to Cat Cay, and back to Fort Lauderdale), much of it at night, in 1987 with nothing but a compass, a depth finder, and several photocopied charts with all the detail of a restaurant placemat.

We didn’t die, and only ran aground one time (in Bimini Harbor no less!). Losing electronics is annoying, but shouldn’t be life or boat threatening to anyone who knows basic navigation.

Click to expand...

Old school skills..... many here have them, many don't.


Are they critical?.... not necessarily with enough redundancy.....spaceflight sorta proves forethought and redundancy may ensure mostly success and survival. Spaceflight had no prior explorers like boat travel.

I'm often in the position of running a boat unfamiliar to me. My approach to redundancy is a bit different. I need to know I've got navigation should the boat's sytems completely fail at a bad time. It's happened twice. The first time I was not prepared with redundancy. Lessons learned the hard way are burned into memory never to be forgotten.

I favor PC based navigation with position fed by a handheld GPS. The handheld runs on AA batts, computer's USB port or any availble USB charge port. I carry spare AA batts. I prefer a handheld that connects to the PC via USB cable vs bluetooth. Bluetooth is another battery drain. I preplan my routes and all harbor of refuge entrances as well as hidey hole anchorages. The waypoints and routes are transferred to the handheld GPS. On shorter passages I do the preplanning & transfer before leaving the dock. On longer passages I stay a day ahead. I like the knowledge gained by preplanning to be fresh in my mind.

Paper charts, often a chart book because a collection of "real" paper charts for an area I may not see again is expensive. A note book and pencil. At regular intervals and at course changes I note Lat, Long, course to steer to next waypoint, SOG.

My thinking is, and I've had to rely on it, when the boat's power system goes down:
1 - Plot the last known position on the paper. Refresh my memory of hazards etc
2 - Compare to the PC nav plotter
3 - Shut down the PC unless I can make safety before the PC batt runs down
4 - Continue on using handheld GPS and paper. Fresh AA batts are good for up to 20 hrs
5 - On final approach to harbor or anchorage fire up the PC

Like most of us I've also got a phone and often a tablet. Both will have plotting apps and the waypoints and routes. I do have some concerns about depending too much on phones and tablets. They are not marine units, hardened against drops and salt water as is the hand held GPS. Their battery run time with a plotter going is no where as long as the handheld GPS. And I've researched the differences in accuracy and performance of phones/tablets vs a "real" GPS. The raw data coming into the GPS reciever is the same no matter the device. However a well designed navigation GPS sets accuracy as a higher priority than time to fix. Phones/tablets working to a built in or online database of road positions and needeing to function at highway speeds can give up a little accuracy for speed as it "snaps to" the nearest road. Most, well almost all of the time, there is no difference in accuracy. But.... sometimes there is. And it's most likely to happen close to shore where the phone/tablet may not be getting a GPS fix fast enough and will for a brief time triangulate off of cell towers. As I write this I'm wondering of putthing the phone/tablet in airplane mode would kill its ability to triangualte off of cell towers? Then there's the touchscreen and wet finger problem.

I"m old skool and have the skills and experience to navigate on paper. But if the owner / employer has not kept the boat's magnetic compass compensated.....

hr

psneeld said:

Old school skills..... many here have them, many don't.


Are they critical?.... not necessarily with enough redundancy.....spaceflight sorta proves forethought and redundancy may ensure mostly success and survival. Spaceflight had no prior explorers like boat travel.

Click to expand...

I learned my extensive map and compass/navigation/dead reckoning/etc. skills in Boy Scouts. Others here may have similar stories as land nav traing and problems were a regular part of every campout thanks to all of the WW2 veterans who were our Scoutmasters (the trainng in digging foxholes by Mr. Harris, an asst. scoutmaster who fought on Iwo Jima, still hasn’t paid off, yet, LOL).

When I started boating offshore out of sight of land in my twenties, I was quite happy to find that land nav, and water nav, pretty much required the exact same skills!