I just completed the annual 11 hour trek from storage location to summer slip. Oil consumption in recent years (conventional Rotella 15-40) was typically half a quart per engine). Changed to Rotella T6 15-40 synthetic before winter storage last Fall. Zero oil burn. Freakin' magic. I'm a fan.
Rotella T6 Synthetic!!!
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Nomad Willy
Guru
Not a synthetic fan either.
But if you’ve got a situation where synthetic oil has a worthwhile cost effective change in how things work I use synthetic myself. But using it is w/o cost effective results is like riding on a bandwagon.
Reduced oil consumption is not cost effective and measurable oil consumption is likely an indication that you’ve got good lubrication of your pistons, cyl walls and rings. A small price to pay for better lubrication of critical engine parts.
Unless one used an engine really hard better lubrication will probably be had w regular dino oil. My boat gets Delo 30w oil and my Avalon gets 5w30 dino oil ..Mobil 1. I thought it was synthetic but last week the dealer said it was dino and not a blend. But I hear blends are only 10% synthetic. I change the car oil every 5,000 miles (twice as often as my previous Volkswagens). Don’t run either engine hard though.
On most all trawlers the engines would benefit more from more frequent oil changes that using synthetic oil. I think several contaminates that accumulate in engine oil accumulate equally in both types of oil. And w longer runs between oil changes you’ll get more contaminates in the synthetic oil.
And just no need for it.
But if you’ve got a situation where synthetic oil has a worthwhile cost effective change in how things work I use synthetic myself. But using it is w/o cost effective results is like riding on a bandwagon.
Reduced oil consumption is not cost effective and measurable oil consumption is likely an indication that you’ve got good lubrication of your pistons, cyl walls and rings. A small price to pay for better lubrication of critical engine parts.
Unless one used an engine really hard better lubrication will probably be had w regular dino oil. My boat gets Delo 30w oil and my Avalon gets 5w30 dino oil ..Mobil 1. I thought it was synthetic but last week the dealer said it was dino and not a blend. But I hear blends are only 10% synthetic. I change the car oil every 5,000 miles (twice as often as my previous Volkswagens). Don’t run either engine hard though.
On most all trawlers the engines would benefit more from more frequent oil changes that using synthetic oil. I think several contaminates that accumulate in engine oil accumulate equally in both types of oil. And w longer runs between oil changes you’ll get more contaminates in the synthetic oil.
And just no need for it.
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Lou_tribal
Guru
What is the price difference between adding or not a quart of regular oil and running on synthetic?
I am neither fan or not, just that in some case there is a need for it and in some case not.
L
I am neither fan or not, just that in some case there is a need for it and in some case not.
L
I suspect this stuff is resistant to the cylinder glazing issue that gets a lot of attention here on the forum. Not an issue for electronically injected engines, but it's an issue for older boosted engines running (slobbering) at low power. In the past I could look at the exhaust and determine when there was a need to run the engines up to higher power to clean up the exhaust. They seemed to run clean for the entirety of this trip, although I did run them up every couple of hours anyway.
In any case at about $25/gallon, I'm sold. Yes, that's an extra $60-70 per oil change for the two engines...peanuts. If you have an engine that uses a bit of oil...or maybe a lot, you might want to give this a shot. Live a little (and maybe your engine(s) will too.
In any case at about $25/gallon, I'm sold. Yes, that's an extra $60-70 per oil change for the two engines...peanuts. If you have an engine that uses a bit of oil...or maybe a lot, you might want to give this a shot. Live a little (and maybe your engine(s) will too.
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psneeld
Guru
Staistically from my readings is they live anyway.
MANY times posted here that a well maintained engine, run properly rarely or never wears out because of the type of oil.
Many times posters have asked for links proving otherwise and yet the preponderance of input just doesn't validate synthetics for much besides analysis suggested extensions or high temp events.
MANY times posted here that a well maintained engine, run properly rarely or never wears out because of the type of oil.
Many times posters have asked for links proving otherwise and yet the preponderance of input just doesn't validate synthetics for much besides analysis suggested extensions or high temp events.
Choices
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I feel the filter is more important than oil type. I have had NAPA/Wix lengthen my filters a couple inches, to the longest made, 551843 for a Lehman 135.
Just changed the oil at 200hrs, and it was still clear. Usually change at 100hrs, but was traveling.
They are special order, so I get three at a time.
Just changed the oil at 200hrs, and it was still clear. Usually change at 100hrs, but was traveling.
They are special order, so I get three at a time.
psneeld
Guru
I have used Wix, Purelator, and Motorcraft fiters for the last 3500 hours with no real change in oil analysis and stellar reports from Blackstone labs every 100-120 hours on the oil.
I have been using Rotella 15W40 and 30Wt on this engine for the last 9 years.
I am more likely to have the engine rebuilt for a variety of issues than because of wear from oil or filter issues.
While one may argue my engine is an anomaly, my readings and experience say it's more common than not.
I have been using Rotella 15W40 and 30Wt on this engine for the last 9 years.
I am more likely to have the engine rebuilt for a variety of issues than because of wear from oil or filter issues.
While one may argue my engine is an anomaly, my readings and experience say it's more common than not.
Nomad Willy
Guru
I think it has a lot to do w image.
Kinda like you want to be seen w certain people. You want to be considered to be a modern person that takes advantage of all the latest things. Older people that use or do the latest things (like use synthetic oil) are seen as still young in the head despite what their image confirms. Age is all in the head they say. Got all the electronics and know how to use them.
But we old people have seen a lot of new stuff. We’ve seen it come and go, succeed and fail. So a lot of us know the drill, take what’s good and pass on the rest. But sometimes it’s too much trouble to do all the research and learn iffy operational glitches like all of us have experienced on computers.
But then there’s the “baugh humbug” gimmie the good old fashioned stuff. Don’t need no new fangled things. They drive Buicks from the 80’s, wear 70’s kaki pants or possibly plad pants. They don’t use GPS in their cars and they bank in person. I have a friend that can’t go to the head w/o his i-phone. Thinks I’m stone aged but we both get along pretty much the same. Am I in this category? Yup in some ways. Texting is really a good way to communicate most of the time. Don’t really need the GPS in my car and wear jeans most all of the time.
And re synthetic oil I make a point of being objective about it and use it where there’s clear benefit and not where where there’s no need. Sometimes I miss a point or two and get into the baugh humbug codgers but I try to embrace the new when there’s real benefits to be had and are worth the effort to ditch the old and use the new.
Re synthetic oil in a trawler one can say w assurance that synthetic oil ... it’s better in every way but price. But there’s no real benefit other than the way you’re seen among other trawlermen. I’ll pass on the “be seen” benefit and take the cost benefit home. To switch to synthetic in my Avalon at the dealer where I have the oil changed it’s about $20. But I just don’t need it. My car is not going to last longer if I use it.
Kinda like you want to be seen w certain people. You want to be considered to be a modern person that takes advantage of all the latest things. Older people that use or do the latest things (like use synthetic oil) are seen as still young in the head despite what their image confirms. Age is all in the head they say. Got all the electronics and know how to use them.
But we old people have seen a lot of new stuff. We’ve seen it come and go, succeed and fail. So a lot of us know the drill, take what’s good and pass on the rest. But sometimes it’s too much trouble to do all the research and learn iffy operational glitches like all of us have experienced on computers.
But then there’s the “baugh humbug” gimmie the good old fashioned stuff. Don’t need no new fangled things. They drive Buicks from the 80’s, wear 70’s kaki pants or possibly plad pants. They don’t use GPS in their cars and they bank in person. I have a friend that can’t go to the head w/o his i-phone. Thinks I’m stone aged but we both get along pretty much the same. Am I in this category? Yup in some ways. Texting is really a good way to communicate most of the time. Don’t really need the GPS in my car and wear jeans most all of the time.
And re synthetic oil I make a point of being objective about it and use it where there’s clear benefit and not where where there’s no need. Sometimes I miss a point or two and get into the baugh humbug codgers but I try to embrace the new when there’s real benefits to be had and are worth the effort to ditch the old and use the new.
Re synthetic oil in a trawler one can say w assurance that synthetic oil ... it’s better in every way but price. But there’s no real benefit other than the way you’re seen among other trawlermen. I’ll pass on the “be seen” benefit and take the cost benefit home. To switch to synthetic in my Avalon at the dealer where I have the oil changed it’s about $20. But I just don’t need it. My car is not going to last longer if I use it.
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Nomad Willy
Guru
Rufus,
I'm just pointing out that burning a bit of oil is not bad and very very inexpensive.
And I don't doubt your word at all.
I'm just pointing out that burning a bit of oil is not bad and very very inexpensive.
And I don't doubt your word at all.
menzies
Guru
Just seeing this.
A quart oil consumption across your engines after an 11 hour run?
So if you did three months in the islands and, say, ran 30 hours to get there, 80 hours while there, and 30 hours back, you would expect to see ~ 3.5 gallons of oil consumption?
Being new to diesels (<4 seasons), is this something folks see as normal and usual?
Seriously asking as my expectation is to to see minimal to no consumption over a whole season.
So interested to know what I am missing, re different set ups.
Fire away!
Nomad Willy
Guru
Didn't realize it was that much consumption. That's way different.
Synthetics have a tendency to swell or shrink seals so it's possible a seal shrank or expanded and caused the change in oil consumption.
Trans-X is a stop-leak for automatic transmissions and I read somewhere that it swelled the rubber seals a bit to stop leakage from worn seals.
Synthetic oil has an additive that counteracts the natural affect on seals. This was a big problem when synthetic oil was first being used. Now I've been told all synthetic lube oil has the additive.
I'd have been happy w one quart consumption over 22hrs of running. Wouldn't have seen that as a problem. But some people see any "consumption" as a bad thing. Not sure but the oil control ring having the job of distributing a small film of oil for piston, cyl wall and ring lubrication. This film of oil should burn off and replaced as the engine runs. No oil consumption would indicate no lubrication to me but my 06 Avalon dosn't burn oil and most other cars don't either. Hope someone can explain this in time. The oil control ring must apply the oil and wipe it off on the downstroke but ??
Synthetics have a tendency to swell or shrink seals so it's possible a seal shrank or expanded and caused the change in oil consumption.
Trans-X is a stop-leak for automatic transmissions and I read somewhere that it swelled the rubber seals a bit to stop leakage from worn seals.
Synthetic oil has an additive that counteracts the natural affect on seals. This was a big problem when synthetic oil was first being used. Now I've been told all synthetic lube oil has the additive.
I'd have been happy w one quart consumption over 22hrs of running. Wouldn't have seen that as a problem. But some people see any "consumption" as a bad thing. Not sure but the oil control ring having the job of distributing a small film of oil for piston, cyl wall and ring lubrication. This film of oil should burn off and replaced as the engine runs. No oil consumption would indicate no lubrication to me but my 06 Avalon dosn't burn oil and most other cars don't either. Hope someone can explain this in time. The oil control ring must apply the oil and wipe it off on the downstroke but ??
menzies
Guru
Nomad, same as you. I am by no means a diesel expert - hell I am not even an diesel novice! I am looking to rectify that aggressively over the next 12 months.
But my aim would be to have the oil lube my engine "inside" the engine and stay there. I would have thought that engines designed to run continuous duty would be able to take you across oceans on an oil change (well say Charleston to Bermuda and Bermuda to Azores anyway)!
Dreaming, or not?
But my aim would be to have the oil lube my engine "inside" the engine and stay there. I would have thought that engines designed to run continuous duty would be able to take you across oceans on an oil change (well say Charleston to Bermuda and Bermuda to Azores anyway)!
Dreaming, or not?
Nomad Willy
Guru
Mr. M,
I have no idea nor do I care what people do about oil changing while crossing oceans. Don’t need to even think about it. If I were to find out it may be interesting and may not be interesting. But if you find out ... post it.
In the days when the XJ6 Jaguar engine was one of the greatest high performance engines in the world they set numerous speed records. One was to run an XK140 roadster for 24 hours continuous on a track in France.
All Jaguars burned oil and in the US many owners of new Jaguars complained about the oil consumption. I don’t know if it was as much as Rufus experienced when he was running dino oil but it wasn’t much. The new Jaguars certainly wer’nt smoking or burning “excessive” oil. But I was told it was for adequate lubrication while performing it’s expected high performance duty.
I have no idea nor do I care what people do about oil changing while crossing oceans. Don’t need to even think about it. If I were to find out it may be interesting and may not be interesting. But if you find out ... post it.
In the days when the XJ6 Jaguar engine was one of the greatest high performance engines in the world they set numerous speed records. One was to run an XK140 roadster for 24 hours continuous on a track in France.
All Jaguars burned oil and in the US many owners of new Jaguars complained about the oil consumption. I don’t know if it was as much as Rufus experienced when he was running dino oil but it wasn’t much. The new Jaguars certainly wer’nt smoking or burning “excessive” oil. But I was told it was for adequate lubrication while performing it’s expected high performance duty.
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FF
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Oil consumption? Maybe?
Every engine that lubricates with oil, any oil ,must burn some of the oil.
This is because a thin film will be left on every cylinder during every stroke , including the power stroke,which burns off the oil.
As any engine functions the rings never seal perfectly , so blow by into the crankcase is normal.
Many folks think there engine is not "using oil" because the oil level in the dipstick does not seem to drop.
Blow by condenses enough to cause this effect.
Minor use and short days of light loads can assist oil contamination.
One test is to operate a long hard day -to get the blow by condensate to boil off, and see what happens on the next day , weather the oil level drops.
This effect was noticed decades ago by commuters that just drove to the train station and urban folks required to move cars for street sweeping every day.
The oil base stock does not change the oil burned off the cylinder walls , tho the ability of the rings to scrape synthetic and leave less oil in place might be a help.
Then again the thin easily drained synthetic oil film will not be as good when the engine is shut down at rust prevention.
Every engine that lubricates with oil, any oil ,must burn some of the oil.
This is because a thin film will be left on every cylinder during every stroke , including the power stroke,which burns off the oil.
As any engine functions the rings never seal perfectly , so blow by into the crankcase is normal.
Many folks think there engine is not "using oil" because the oil level in the dipstick does not seem to drop.
Blow by condenses enough to cause this effect.
Minor use and short days of light loads can assist oil contamination.
One test is to operate a long hard day -to get the blow by condensate to boil off, and see what happens on the next day , weather the oil level drops.
This effect was noticed decades ago by commuters that just drove to the train station and urban folks required to move cars for street sweeping every day.
The oil base stock does not change the oil burned off the cylinder walls , tho the ability of the rings to scrape synthetic and leave less oil in place might be a help.
Then again the thin easily drained synthetic oil film will not be as good when the engine is shut down at rust prevention.
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psneeld
Guru
Here's some real life data....
http://www.sbintl.com/tech_library/articles/what_is_acceptable_oil_consumption_in_diesel_engines.pdf
I burn around 1 gallon oil per 100 hrs or 1 gallon per 200 gallons diesel or 1 quart oil per 50 gallons diesel which for a Lehman isn't into the "unacceptable" range yet...and even if...not worth doing anything yet because my oil analysis is perfect with no recommendations from the lab.
http://www.sbintl.com/tech_library/articles/what_is_acceptable_oil_consumption_in_diesel_engines.pdf
I burn around 1 gallon oil per 100 hrs or 1 gallon per 200 gallons diesel or 1 quart oil per 50 gallons diesel which for a Lehman isn't into the "unacceptable" range yet...and even if...not worth doing anything yet because my oil analysis is perfect with no recommendations from the lab.
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jleonard
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I have no idea how much oil my 120 burns. Most of the "consumption" is leaks.
3 to 4 oil diapers per season.
3 to 4 oil diapers per season.
catalinajack
Guru
Two fallacies in one sentence. First, synthetic oil is not "thin". Every dino or synthetic formulation will have the SAME viscosity in a particular oil, SAE 15W-40, for example. So, synthetic oils are no more or no less "thin" than a same-rated dino oil. A synthetic oil may APPEAR to be more "thin" when poured at any particular temperature because of the nature of synthetic oils. In fact, that is one of the benefits of synthetics, they pour more freely.
The second fallacy is that synthetics drain down faster and more completely than dino oils. It is just the opposite. Because of the molecular structure of synthetics, they cling to parts and provide better start-up protection whereas dino oils do drain down, the cause of dry start-ups which is when most engine wear occurs.
Whether any of this is "worth it" when it comes to older engines certainly engenders many opinions. I use it because of the extended drain opportunities which, in fact, makes its use no more expensive than dino oil yet the user gets the benefits of the synthetics. And, no, soot is not a problem if a good filter is used. Tests of my last batch of synthetic showed no elevated soot levels after 300 hours and the oil was recommended for continued use by the testing lab. I can be as cheap as any guy here but using synthetics to me is cost-saving not to mention cutting down on oil changes on a 6,500-mile cruise.
Nomad Willy
Guru
av8r,
I agree at this point.
And I assume you mean “above normal” consumption.
There’s another “normal” and that would be what most people experience. But that is probably mostly leaking.
But if you’ve got an old trawler w old engines or engine and oil “disappearance” was/is one quart every 20hrs I would guess you may over time consider that your normal. And not excessive until replacing or/and cleaning up the disappearing oil became a greater problem than replacing while you run your boat. I would assume lots of replacing could take place before you’d be thinking about rebuilding or replacing the engine.
So w Rufus’s oil disappearance at one qt. per 20hrs would be easy to deal with in the grand scheme of maintenance and economics. That would mean adding oil every other day of running. Or at worst every day. I’d gladly add the oil and dismiss any thoughts of rebuilding or repowering.
But since switching to synthetic stopped the disappearance of oil I’m think’in the additive in all synthetic oil that combats the natural tendency for synthetic oil to shrink rubber oil seals is to swell the seals w the additive that swells the seals. Since Rufus’s engines are old seals are probably worn. So the fact that the disappearance of oil stopping may be caused by the seals swelling from the synthetic additive. But in reality Rufus’s engines should be leaking oil from gaskets ect because of age. However Rufus may be one that stays ahead of things like leaky gaskets and properly replaces the gaskets. But since the disappearance of oil stopped one would think Rufus had no oil leakage from gaskets and the like and his seal leakage stopped because of the additive in the synthetic oil that swells seals.
The above is just keyboard thinking.
FF
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"So, synthetic oils are no more or no less "thin" than a same-rated dino oil."
In terns of SAE viscosity that is correct , but synthetics are more easily scraped down by the oil ring which gives better fuel mileage , the big reason they are demanded for newer cars.,CAFE,.and their emission systems.
Syn oils do have better sheer strength , so engines with gears to operate multiple overhead valve sets can probably gain longevity , most high performance (0-60 in under 4 seconds) carmaker specify syn.
Even my MB motor home demands Syn oil , its low ash content makes it easier to regenerate the emissions system.
After the VW debacle the world wide fear of the US Air Police is staggering.
In terns of SAE viscosity that is correct , but synthetics are more easily scraped down by the oil ring which gives better fuel mileage , the big reason they are demanded for newer cars.,CAFE,.and their emission systems.
Syn oils do have better sheer strength , so engines with gears to operate multiple overhead valve sets can probably gain longevity , most high performance (0-60 in under 4 seconds) carmaker specify syn.
Even my MB motor home demands Syn oil , its low ash content makes it easier to regenerate the emissions system.
After the VW debacle the world wide fear of the US Air Police is staggering.
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The engines in our boat don't leak. But the crankcase ventilation is very crude....basically a pipe coming out the top of the valve cover that's aimed at the air filter on the turbo. I added a makeshift oil separator (some scotchbrite stuffed into the pipe), and a catch can hanging at the end of the vent pipe to recover the drips. But I'm pretty sure the whole arrangement has been pulling more than it's share of oil laden air out of the valve covers (rather than just venting). So this is a source of oil burn, as it gets sucked straight into the turbo and subsequently burned. I've been considering a Walker air/oil separator for years, but like others found it easy and inexpensive to just add oil. Anyway, I'm beginning to wonder if the synthetic oil might be less prone to being suspended in the crankcase and valve train mist, and therefor less likely to be pulled through that vent pipe and into the inlet side.
I should have a better sense of the reduction in oil consumption after run time builds on the engines. I probably should have waited to report on my findings before posting, but I was genuinely amazed when I checked the dip sticks.
I should have a better sense of the reduction in oil consumption after run time builds on the engines. I probably should have waited to report on my findings before posting, but I was genuinely amazed when I checked the dip sticks.
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Steve91T
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I didn’t read all the comments, it I’ll add this....I love T6. I put that **** in everything I own, from my old M3 to my 5.9 Cummins truck, to my old lawn mower.
To give you an idea of how tough this oil is, I have a car that I race once in a while. It’s a 4th gen Camaro with an LT1. I had one weekend where my oil temps were about 315 degrees for a total of either 20-25 minute sessions. I sent an oil sample out as soon as I got home and wrote exactly what my oil temps were and for how long. Didn’t hurt a thing including the oil!!!
To give you an idea of how tough this oil is, I have a car that I race once in a while. It’s a 4th gen Camaro with an LT1. I had one weekend where my oil temps were about 315 degrees for a total of either 20-25 minute sessions. I sent an oil sample out as soon as I got home and wrote exactly what my oil temps were and for how long. Didn’t hurt a thing including the oil!!!
Ski in NC
Technical Guru
I use T6 on my diesel Jetta as it has a dry turbo which is prone to hot shutdown heat soak. Also heard it has an issue of coking oil on piston bottoms and top ring grooves. Been using it for last 100+k miles, did a sample, came back ok at 10k interval. I think it is good stuff.
On my boat 450C Cummins, I still use dino Rotella 15-40. It has a wet turbo and never gets shut down quick from a hard run. I also only cruise it at max of 220hp, which should not get piston temps up where coking is an issue. I think. At about 4000hrs on it so if there was an issue, I'd probably have seen it by now.
Oil sample at 250hrs on the Cummins showed the oil was fine for continued use, but I end up changing it anyway at around 300hrs just because running beyond that puts a nag in my mind, and I start thinking about it.
The VW definitely specs a syn. The Cummins does not, so there is that too.
This is highly non-technical, but it seems some engines "like" some flavor of oil over other flavors. So if your engine is doing something weird, like using oil, nothing wrong with trying another flavor.
Going with syn does not automatically mean you can extend change intervals. Crud added to good oil still ends up being cruddy oil. Sampling is what tells the story. Even dino oil can go well beyond spec change intervals, and it has more to do with engine duty cycle and other stuff, not so much whether dino or syn.
On my boat 450C Cummins, I still use dino Rotella 15-40. It has a wet turbo and never gets shut down quick from a hard run. I also only cruise it at max of 220hp, which should not get piston temps up where coking is an issue. I think. At about 4000hrs on it so if there was an issue, I'd probably have seen it by now.
Oil sample at 250hrs on the Cummins showed the oil was fine for continued use, but I end up changing it anyway at around 300hrs just because running beyond that puts a nag in my mind, and I start thinking about it.
The VW definitely specs a syn. The Cummins does not, so there is that too.
This is highly non-technical, but it seems some engines "like" some flavor of oil over other flavors. So if your engine is doing something weird, like using oil, nothing wrong with trying another flavor.
Going with syn does not automatically mean you can extend change intervals. Crud added to good oil still ends up being cruddy oil. Sampling is what tells the story. Even dino oil can go well beyond spec change intervals, and it has more to do with engine duty cycle and other stuff, not so much whether dino or syn.
catalinajack
Guru
Yes, yes, extended drain intervals only with testing. The crud you mention I am guessing you mean soot. Testing will reveal three important factors for diesel engine oil, soot, viscosity, and total base number. If, when tested, the oil is within bounds for all three, it is good for continued use. Several times now, after 300 hours my synthetic tested good for all three factors. Given that most folks change their oil at around 150 -200 hours, sometimes even 100 hours, that 300 hour point is my break-even point in terms of per hour cost. Just for the convenience of having to change oil half as many times, I find the synthetic no more expensive and never mind all of the other benefits that come with its use. Use that oil beyond 300 hours and it is "all for free".
So, for the "traditionalists", in view of the facts please explain a good reason not to use synthetics since, in the long run, synthetics are cheaper.
Nomad Willy
Guru
catjack,
Much talk about “all the benefits of synthetic” but no specifics.
Makes me think of hype.
And if you care to respond please list only real advantages to the average trawler.
I have said why synthetics and MV oils aren’t needed in rec trawlers many times. And the average trawler probably does not have a turbo. And the way most are run it probably dosn’t matter either.
Much talk about “all the benefits of synthetic” but no specifics.
Makes me think of hype.
And if you care to respond please list only real advantages to the average trawler.
I have said why synthetics and MV oils aren’t needed in rec trawlers many times. And the average trawler probably does not have a turbo. And the way most are run it probably dosn’t matter either.
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kchace
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Just a datapoint for the discussion, my port Lehman 135 uses 1 qt per 25 hours cruising, the starboard one uses 1 qt per 35 hrs. Both have very little smoke. They both run excellently and consistently have good oil reports.
Seems good to me.
Seems good to me.
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