Winter Project I: Charging System Upgrade

GonzoF1 wrote:
Anyone know what gauge the starter wire should be? I've looked up all my other DC loads on the boat, but I am not completely sure what gauge the starter wire should be because I don't know what the starter creates as a load. Standard AC Delco starter and the round trip distance to the starter from the battery could be 20'-25' depending on if I decide to move the battery location. Google might know too. I'll ask them next

(I was thinking 1/0 for this.)

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*Without knowing started wattage it's just a guess.* If the owners manual suggests a minimum cranking amps then that may give a rough idea...I would stii increase wire size by one and make sure my connections are good (often the achilles heel of high amp situations).

My Albin with SP135 Lehmans came wired with 2/0. I assume you have a similiar engine? These starters can draw from 250 to 400 amps. 1/0 is only good for 242 amps. 2/0 is 280. 3/0 is 327, and 4/0 is 378. All these ampacity's are for inside and engine space. I wouldn't go less than 2/0 at all. Like FF said, bigger really is better.
My port engine had always turned over much slower than the stbd the first few years I had the boat. I just thought it had a weak starter. When I re-wired my 12 v cabling I discovered the round trip from battery to switch to starter and back to battery was 65ft! And the batteries sit right between the engines. With my re-wire (using the same cables as they were in excellent shape), using a remote battery switch and re-routing everything I got it down to about 15ft round trip. Now that engine spins just fine!
Use tht biggest wire, with the shortest run, and good clean, tight connections.

GonzoF1 wrote:
Anyone know what gauge the starter wire should be? I've looked up all my other DC loads on the boat, but I am not completely sure what gauge the starter wire should be because I don't know what the starter creates as a load. Standard AC Delco starter and the round trip distance to the starter from the battery could be 20'-25' depending on if I decide to move the battery location. Google might know too. I'll ask them next

(I was thinking 1/0 for this.)

Click to expand...

You must take in to account the voltage drop and the length of a cable.* The longer a cable in relation to*a given current, the greater the voltage drop.* The only way to reduce the voltage drop is to*use larger diameter cable (lower risistance).** I'd go*with a minimum of 2/0 and move*the starting batteries*closer than 10'*to 12'.

Good tips. Perhaps I'll bump it up to 2/0. (I'm also going to see what gauge the current welding wire is to compare.) The connections will be solid. See above for the $200 crimping tool I bought just for this application. :-D

**PROJECT UPDATES**

I took some quick measurements last week for the wire runs. I hope to order the wire next week.

Due to some space considerations, I have decided to replace the big 8-lug buss bars with smaller 4-lug bars as the primary tie-in points on the project board. I really don't want to have to crowd the components together. Some of these wires will be pretty thick and they'll need some room to bend and make the turns needed. I was not going to fill those buss bars anyway. Part of the reason for using 8-lugs was for future upgrades like wind or solar, and besides, stacking a wire lug or two is not against my religion. I'll cross the future upgrade bridge when I get there.

Finally, as discussed earlier (and in another thread), I opted to move the three HD battery switches into the salon for easier access in case of an emergency or runaway starter. The plan was to use a hole saw on the front edge of the port companionway stair and recess then onto the step for protection. However, in the car on Sunday, as I was describing it all to Bess, I had the idea to actually put them INSIDE the step storage locker. I plan to build a small panel in the step to recess mount them. The wires can still drop out of the bottom of the step to the batteries that are just inches below and save any unnecessarily long run, the switches can be far more protected, and access is no more difficult than lifting the step tread (not attached or latched).

Ref the buss bars. ABYC allows 4 wires on a terminal. It's best to keep it to as few as possible but I routinely put 2 or 3 on a lug of these buss bars as long as the buss is rated for the amperage I'm doing.

And I assume you're going to order tinned marine cable.

Brent Hodges wrote:
Ref the buss bars. ABYC allows 4 wires on a terminal. It's best to keep it to as few as possible but I routinely put 2 or 3 on a lug of these buss bars as long as the buss is rated for the amperage I'm doing.

And I assume you're going to order tinned marine cable.

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*Yep, I understand the restrictions on 4-to-a-lug. Thanks. It's unlikely I'll have more than one or two lugs with 2 wire lugs stacked. Maybe less. These buss bars are rated at 600A.

Unfortunately, after an exhaustive search, I was unable to find a retailer with both the size and priced by the foot selection of non-tinned wire. So it looks like I will be forced down the path the wire corporations want me to go. Nevertheless, I have found a retailer that has great prices and the knowledge to help me with my order.

GonzoF1 wrote:Unfortunately, after an exhaustive search, I was unable to find a retailer with both the size and priced by the foot selection of non-tinned wire. So it looks like I will be forced down the path the wire corporations want me to go. Nevertheless, I have found a retailer that has great prices and the knowledge to help me with my order.

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*Tom,

There is a scrap iron store in NB that sometime has all kind of wire.* Also have you been to Jarret Bays salvage store.* New left over parts from the yards that built boats there. Rust Ron's in Morehead City, more of the same.* You might be able to buy a couple of 20' sections of*00*wire.


-- Edited by JD on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 02:12:22 PM

I was unable to find a retailer with both the size and priced by the foot selection of non-tinned wire. (endquote)

Did you mean to say you couldn't fine a source for tinned wire? Where are you located?

Without going into a lot of detail. Tinned wire on a boat is a sham. The AYBC does not require it, nor, with proper installation and connections, is it necessary. Please see the thread "Battery Wire" a few threads below this one. You'll understand. :-D

GonzoF1 wrote:
Without going into a lot of detail. Tinned wire on a boat is a sham. The AYBC does not require it, nor, with proper installation and connections, is it necessary. Please see the thread "Battery Wire" a few threads below this one. You'll understand. :-D

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*Tinned wire isn't a sham..it's useful for many of us that don't run and connect wire to perfection...it does outlast untinned wire to a much greater degree if moisture finds it's way into the wire....maybe outlast is incorrect*so outperform fits better.

*

psneeld wrote:*Tinned wire isn't a sham..it's useful for many of us that don't run and connect wire to perfection...it does outlast untinned wire to a much greater degree if moisture finds it's way into the wire....maybe outlast is incorrect*so outperform fits better.
*

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Fair enough, but if we could PLEASE not dilute this thread with a discussion about tinned vs. non-tinned. There is another thread for that. This is a thread specifically for people to reference should they desire to try the same sort of project and for me to ask questions and get a reasonable discussion about it. I ma THE perpetual apprentice.


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 10:23:14 PM

"Fair enough, but if we could PLEASE not dilute this thread with a discussion"


Nonsense , when a question HAS been answered most threads will expand ,

much to the delight of newbys , as it frequently covers or explains questions they did not know to ask!

GonzoF1 wrote:psneeld wrote:*Tinned wire isn't a sham..it's useful for many of us that don't run and connect wire to perfection...it does outlast untinned wire to a much greater degree if moisture finds it's way into the wire....maybe outlast is incorrect*so outperform fits better.
*

Click to expand...

Fair enough, but if we could PLEASE not dilute this thread with a discussion about tinned vs. non-tinned. There is another thread for that. This is a thread specifically for people to reference should they desire to try the same sort of project and for me to ask questions and get a reasonable discussion about it. I ma THE perpetual apprentice.



-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 10:23:14 PM

*Then don't dilute it with "personal" opinions about one of the main items of a charging system upgrade.

I never commented before about tinned versus not as they perform exactly the same in laboratory situations...and as Rick B said...if done correctly...there should be no difference.

Most boats and owners never come CLOSE to installing or keeping their system to laboratory conditions..."sham" I think not and you do a disservice to others attempting your upgrades into thinking any other way.

As far as sizing....ampacity is important but so are other factors...the most important is the required amps to spin your starter under the harshest conditions you expect to see.* That seems to be a glossed over requirement and just guessing then going up a size is a sure fire way to ruin an expensive starter..the same goes for max alternator output and where the end of the alt output wire is going as there are many options there.

*

I'll accept that criticism. Noted and thanks. :-D

TBH, I don't know I'll ever be in the hardest possible conditions. I suppose very cold is one, but we try not to boat in very cold. Out of curiosity, what other factors make up the hardest conditions? Moreover, not really knowing the full load of this particular starter (which is why I asked), educated guesses are about the only feasible method. Then err on the upside.

I suspect that I'm darn near already working the system I have to its limit. If you look at the pictures of the current state of wire and connections, it's pretty poor. And I would also suspect that this condition was a contributing factor to the starter failure I experienced 18 months ago. Nevertheless, while having the highest AWG possible is a good thing, there is also a breaking point where it's overkill and restricts flexibility, space, and cost.

I'm not arguing your position, nor trying to convince you of mine. I'm just being open about the processes that steer the decisions that *I* am making. It has been said (not by me though) that it's my project and I'll do with it as I please, but half the point of this thread is to help others see approaches to projects like this they may have missed. Case and point is the plumbing project thread. It eventually lead to me rethinking several aspects and resulted in a much better rig. That's why I am here and I HOPE that's why we are all here.

Tom-

Fair enough...so have you ascertained the max amps your starter can/is supposed to*draw?

Usually the engine manual or spec sheet says use a battery with an minimum cranking amps..that may help...


-- Edited by psneeld on Wednesday 22nd of February 2012 06:00:53 PM

"I never commented before about tinned versus not as they perform exactly the same in laboratory situations."

Most labs do not test after years/decades in a seawater environment.

"so have you ascertained the max amps your starter can/is supposed to draw?"

DC motors are measured in watts for the power draw.

If you want the best chance of a start figure the battery at 9 volts then figure the amps the start wire needs to handle with minimum .5 V drop.

FF wrote:
"I never commented before about tinned versus not as they perform exactly the same in laboratory situations."

Most labs do not test after years/decades in a seawater environment.

"so have you ascertained the max amps your starter can/is supposed to draw?"

DC motors are measured in watts for the power draw.

If you want the best chance of a start figure the battery at 9 volts then figure the amps the start wire needs to handle with minimum .5 V drop.

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*I know..but whether you pick watts, amps or volts....I would hope anyone attempting to do their own wiring understands these 3 completely before even attempting a wiring upgrade.

On the other hand...in forums much theory/terminology is kept simple...like boatyard talk to keep the begginers interested and informed.

In one of my earlier posts I discussed wattage and "hershest conditions". Which again the person starting any boat project should investigate.* For starting it should include low voltage, cold engine but wire temp increase, bundling of wires if you do, number of wire breaks and potential for corrosion... Sure you can just always wire with 4/0...but for smaller diesels that might be a waste of money and difficult routing if you really don't need it.

*


-- Edited by psneeld on Thursday 23rd of February 2012 06:44:44 AM

but for smaller diesels that might be a waste of money and difficult routing if you really don't need it.

Until O dark 30 when the bilge pump wired to the engine batt gives up and you attempt to start with a "dead" batt.

Stuff happens , only few folks really "need" insurance after a disaster ,

but heavy wire even "if you really don't need it." is cheap insurance,.

FF wrote:
but for smaller diesels that might be a waste of money and difficult routing if you really don't need it.

Until O dark 30 when the bilge pump wired to the engine batt gives up and you attempt to start with a "dead" batt.

Stuff happens , only few folks really "need" insurance after a disaster ,

but heavy wire even "if you really don't need it." is cheap insurance,.

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*If always the doomsday scenario...maybe you should think long and hard about a starter battery WITHOUT bilge pumps wired (or anything else) and have it NEAR the starter...at some point another battery costs less than too much oversized wiriing.*

Even better...there's plenty of literature out there suggesting that even out 40 some footer would gain from going to 24 V systems to sart saving money due to the price increases in wire.

If the never enough mentality was in every aspect of boating...we wouldn't.

psneeld wrote:
Fair enough...so have you ascertained the max amps your starter can/is supposed to*draw?

Usually the engine manual or spec sheet says use a battery with an minimum cranking amps..that may help...

Click to expand...

What do you make of this. Manual states:

Max. current starter 1150 Amps (!!!)

Starter Cable Resistance 0.0017 Ohms

Ohms and total length not to exceed 12 feet of 61/0.036 (0.062in^2) or 20 feet of 61/0.044 (0.090in^2)

Without more time to investigate...

here's a start...there's many more out there

http://www.powerstream.com/Wire_Size.htm

If you want to wait...I'll be calculating/rewiring mine after fuel tank replacement..


-- Edited by psneeld on Friday 24th of February 2012 10:33:05 AM

I have been using the calculation more relevant to the application :-D

http://www.acbsphl.org/Tips_and_hints/ABYC_Wiring.htm (new window)

gives you the same/close enough*info..it was just the first one I came across

I brought the breadboard down to take a look at the fit and access.

Here it is:


elecmockup5 by GonzoF1, on Flickr

Tom:* Your layout looks a little tight.* With all the 2/0 cables lugs and heat shrink you may want to spread things out a bit.* Move the positives and negatives further apart?*

Are you installing a battery monitor?* Remember that*all current must flow through the shunt to the negative battery terminal if you are.

I agree and am trying to figure out a way to make it all fit. This is just a sample mock-up, and if you have been watching all my other project threads, you know this config is by no means the final design. ;-) I definitely want to get the wire in (have not ordered it yet) to see what kind of radius it will have.

BTW... Look closely, there IS a shut for a Victron monitor mounted on there already. ;-)

Now that you have that nice big crimping tool are you going to do anything else to the connections?

Or is the crimp good enough.

The reason for asking is. I used a chisel and hammer to crimp mine then soldered them also.

SD

No... A proper crimp with the proper size lug, should crush the strands together into a nearly solid mass. Solder cannot penetrate it. Also, with adhesive heat shrink, you've got a good solid crimp. Solder get brittle.

Here is a good look:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/a-proper-crimp-one-you-can-believe-in-39439.html (new tab)

Tom-

Old Stone wrote:
Alright Gonz, I have finally had it with you ! I have been resisiting and resisting, but can no longer hold off. The way you have approached both the plumbing and electric modifications on your vessel with the "panel" approach has finally embarrassed me to the point I now have yet another series of projects to do. YOU DOG ! Really admirable jobs you have been doing there, especially when it will come to servicing any part of the assemblies. But I stand hard with my position about you. YOU DOG !!!!!!!

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*SORRY!!! Bess wants to go cruising in a few years and Skinny Dippin' needs to be ready. System centralization with easy access for repair, to me, is critical to solid, reliable performance and worry-free cruising. But that is just me.... YMMV :-D

BTW... Fuel system/polisher is the same way. :-D


-- Edited by GonzoF1 on Monday 27th of February 2012 01:05:54 PM

GonzoF1 wrote:
No... A proper crimp with the proper size lug, should crush the strands together into a nearly solid mass. Solder cannot penetrate it. Also, with adhesive heat shrink, you've got a good solid crimp. Solder get brittle.

Here is a good look:

http://www.cruisersforum.com/forums/f14/a-proper-crimp-one-you-can-believe-in-39439.html (new tab)

Tom-

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*Thanks T, Looks great to me. I will try and rent the same brand when next I need one.

*I should just go do it anyway.

It is a whole lot better than what I did.

SD