Too much anchor

bobofthenorth wrote:*I think I could be forgiven for not believing you.
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I cannot think of anything less important to me on the planet than whether or not you believe me.* We're all just type on a screen.* You and I have no more credibility than what a reader wants to believe.* If like the SARCA guy you write that the sky is blue I'm going to look up because I have no more reason to believe what you say than I do what the Douglas fir in our front yard says.

The good news is that it doesn't matter who believes what because there are no consequences to what's said unless one is fool enough to actually act on the advice one reads on the internet withuout getting a first or preferably a fifth opinon from people you personally know who know.* (I realize that's a confusing sentence but read it slowly several times and I bet you'll get it.)

Anyone who does what I say-- even if I know I'm right-- is an idiot if they don't check it first.* Same way I am if I do the same.

Marin wrote:
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Anyone who does what I say-- even if I know I'm right-- is an idiot if they don't check it first.

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Finally I understand "Guru" status. Thanks. BruceK

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BruceK wrote:Marin wrote:
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Anyone who does what I say-- even if I know I'm right-- is an idiot if they don't check it first.

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Finally I understand "Guru" status. Thanks. BruceK

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You oviously have no clue about how the titles work on this site.* Unless an administrator assignes a specifically requested title, titles like "Member,," "Senior Member," "Guru," etc are assigned automatically based on the number of posts a person makes.* I have no idea how many posts it takes to move up one notch but post enough times and you, too, will be a "Guru."

It's a measurement of quantity, not quality.

And if the preassigned titles don't fit, you can request the moderators for something special.

Hi all,
Rex here,I feel in the light of the present situation I should not abanden those who have supported me without a last response,*I sincerely apologize for any upset that I have caused it was never my intention; I have learnt a valuable lesson and will stay out in the future.
*Marin old mate you could have saved me a lot of huffing and puffing* as youre* recent explanations of no interest clearly reveals you have a mindset on manufacturers, for* reasons you have explained, maybe it was just me, but certainly the anchor designs were of no interest to you.
You could have PM me from the get go that you do not enjoy interactions from Manufacturers and I would have evaporated, then you would have not had this upset, obvious you had a reason to string it out, beats me.*
Whilst you yourself may have your own reason for your take on my credibility, let me say this.
You could have challenged my credibility in a gentlemen way as I was prepared to have one, anyone, even you trial my anchor designs with a generous*discount, cost if need be with a money back guarantee if it wasnt up to their- your exspectations. Then you would not have to rely on what you hear.
Problem being regardless of what they would have reported I now realize it would have been a waste of time, totally useless exercise with your current mind set. *
PS Marin,* there are no hard feelings this end,if you want to*respond to me you can always PM me so as to keep it private*and put an end to it.
Again to you all that have supported me, I really feel privileged to think that some of you were appreciating my input, again thank you.
Regards.
Rex.
CEO Anchor Right Australia.



-- Edited by Rex on Monday 27th of February 2012 03:23:55 AM



-- Edited by Rex on Monday 27th of February 2012 03:31:51 AM



-- Edited by Rex on Monday 27th of February 2012 03:43:07 AM


-- Edited by Rex on Monday 27th of February 2012 03:46:43 AM

From my point of view I have found all of the to-ing and fro-ing and the scope of different opinion really useful as I am in the process of replacing a "stuffed" CQR. The discussion on split shank issues and convex vs concave has been really educational and I am grateful to everyone for their obviously honest, forceful perspectives.

I was led to consider a SARCA as a trawler owner friend has one and he loves it - a bit like Peter B. Personally I think the arguments for are a lot stronger than those against especially being reinforced by the very large installed base and on big boats. I for one welcome the opportunity to get real world dialogue from a manufacturer who so obviously is such a serious believer in his kit - which is proven by field experience and authoritative testing. All too often manufacturers hide behind slick advertising copy and copywriters (Marin?) so genuine dialogue is valued.

I will buy a SARCA shortly.

PS I think engagement with manufacturers who have the "cojones" to take on this forum with it's years of collective experience are to be encouraged.

And as the guilty party who started this debate, I would just like to say, thanks to Rex for coming on to back me up, and where appropriate try to correct misrepresentation of the specific way the engineering aspects of his product works. Who better then the designer/manufacturer of a piece of equipment to comment on how it works, especially when misconceptions are flying round?
Also I don't buy the comment "nothing said on here matters, and no advice given should be listened to or acted on unless checked". Checked with whom? That's why people come on here I thought. To get advice from those who know from personal experience, because their acquaintances are often no better informed than they are, and you can hardly rock up to boat builder, electrician, or painter, or whatever, and say, "Ok, now you tell me how to do this and this and that, so I don't have to pay you to do it for me". We all no that no responsibility or liability for such advice as we give or receive can be implied - it's all at our own risk, but boy it can make a huge difference.
Isn't that a lot of what this forum is all about...? Seeking and giving advice - that and swapping some yarns, and dissecting how and why stuff works. That's all I was trying to do when I advised Ron Widman to consider an alternative to perhaps just buying a larger Bruce/Claw. In the end that's what he did - that's fine, and I'm sure the extra weight will see him right - most of the time anyway....Over and out

Peter B wrote:
Also I don't buy the comment "nothing said on here matters, and no advice given should be listened to or acted on unless checked".

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Consider the source Peter.*

The problem with the internet is that everyone looks the same when they appear on my computer.* I've been around the converted bus forums for close to 10 years now and there's maybe half a dozen guys who hang out there whose advice is golden.* If Clifford Allen says something about Detroit Diesels you can take it to the bank, ditto for Don Fairchild.* Likewise there's a few whose posts I have blocked because no matter what they post its not worth reading.* The vast majority are somewhere in between.* I haven't been around here long enough to form those assessments but I'm getting close.* What I've noticed over the years is that the really sharp guys know enough to know their limits.* If they don't know about some area they self censor.* Some of the others - you have to do the censoring for them.


-- Edited by bobofthenorth on Monday 27th of February 2012 08:10:38 AM

And as the other guilty party who asked the original question.......
I now confirm my question has been answered and this "discussion" is CLOSED!

I will admit to not having read every post as it seems it doesm't take much for this foum to get off track and people's panties in a bunch. Also, I've already recenly bought an anchor one size up and the same style as the one that has served me well so I'm not in the market for a new anchor.

There are a few posts complaining about a manufacturer "touting" his products on the forum. When a manufacturer joins a forum just to post about his new "greatest" widget, I have a problem with that. When a manufacturer joins a forum under an assumed alias and posts that he has just discovered a great product that we all should try at "www.newwidget.com", well that's even worse because it's an attempt at trickery.

But, if there is a discushion on anchors, cleaning products, electronics, etc. and a manufacturer or sales rep wishes to join in and provide his or her expertise without an attempt to sell a product and without bashing the competition, I have no problem with that as long as the person identifies his or her affiliation with the company. This can be good information for us and it's free.

Marin wrote:
Anyone who does what I say-- even if I know I'm right-- is an idiot if they don't check it first.* Same way I am if I do the same.

Very good advice.* I won't post something if I don't believe it is right, but whoever reads it should check it out before doing it.

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Interesting thread,

I wonder what sort of response this might get?

Some people deny the advantage of the tripping slot, because it might self trip, but espouse the use of a an anchor buoy instead. What is the frequency of self tripped anchors versus the number of anchor buoys that get tangled round props (and then self trip and leave the propellor immobile)? Sadly anchors and anchoring is all about compromise.

Now a simple experiment, there seem enough entrenched positions to do this and get a result.

Set your anchor, convex or concave, if you have a tripping slot use the slot and then immobolise the slot for a second run, in a strong mud with light weed bottom. Buoy the anchor with a marker buoy (so not attached to the anchor), the buoy is simply there so that you can check re-setting distance. Reverse up hard, full throttle for a few minutes (its as close as I can think of simulating a well set anchor). Now drive over the anchor and re-set it in the opposite direction. This simulates that wind shift or change in tide. (Try not to run over the marker buoy - it will really spoil your day and the experiment.) My results are that its almost impossible to differentiate between the setting and resetting distance of an anchor using a tripping slot or not. Basically it makes not a jot of difference (not quite true, it might take an extra 3' to reset a slotted anchor - but with a 100'of chain who is counting) but this is a controlled experiment and in real life - I'm not a fan of the slot. But back to the concave and convex in that mud and weed bottom. My results seem to indicate that the concave anchors choke with mud (especially those with a roll bar) and will not re-set until the choked material washes out. The re-setting distances for concave can be much longer than convex. In sand this is not an issue, both convex and concave self clean and re-set easily. But its worth doing the experiment in clean sand with good visibility as this shows how the anchors sommersault when subjected to a 'true' 180 degree change of direction.

If enough do it and then and post results possibly the contention that some posts are of minimal value could be countered.

Finally - I see nothing wrong with manufacturers voicing an opinion provided it is obvious they are manufacturers. Moderators can remove anything they think too blatant, forum members can also make their own judgements of veracity.

Have a great day

I read of a boater who runs the trip line from the back of the anchor up along the main rode and fastens it to the chain. if the anchor is fouled he pulls up to it, unties the end of the trip line from the chain, slacks of on the chain, drives forward and pulls the anchor loose with the trip line. I've never tried it but it seems like it would work.
The trip line must be long enough to reach from the anchor on the bottom to the bow roller plus enough to cleat it off on deck.
Steve W.

We set our trip line and buoy so there is only enough slack in the trip line to allow for the tide change, which in the waters we boat can be from 7 to 20 feet. So the buoy and the line are always pretty much right over the anchor. We've used the trip line a fair amount and have never even come close to getting it anywhere near the props. We retrieve the buoy from the bow before retrieving the anchor and we bring up the trip line at the same time and at the same speed as the anchor. So there is no slack line out there to drift back and foul the running gear. Our trip line deployment and retrieval process is dirt simple and we have never had an instance of the trip line wrapping around the anchor rode or causing us any problems at all. This applied to the Bruce we used to use as well as our current anchor.

Rex wrote:<br style="font-family:Calibri;" />*Marin old mate you could have saved me a lot of huffing and puffing* as youre* recent explanations of no interest clearly reveals you have a mindset on manufacturers, for* reasons you have explained, maybe it was just me, but certainly the anchor designs were of no interest to you.

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The designs are of interest--- it's mainly what differentiates the performance of one anchor vs another one.* I have said that I give credibility to user testimonials and not claims made by manufacturers.* I stand by that statement, but there is no arguing the fact that the SARCA has garnered a lot of impressive positive testimonials, and from more than the casual weekend boaters represented on forums like this one.

The anchor works and works well.* That's a fact that is not in dispute.* At least not by me.* That does not mean, however, that it's the "perfect" anchor.* No anchor is and you did not claim this for yours.

There are design features of the SARCA that I believe--- and I'm not alone-- are less than desirable. The slot and over-tall shank are the main ones for the reasons I have stated.* The fluke design appears to me to be not the best choice but then it's hard to argue with the anchor's impressive record of success.* So maybe convex flukes don't have in reality the behavior they look like they should have in theory.

While your offer to let someone try your anchor is a generous one-- and perhaps someone having trouble with their current anchor should explore that with you---we have no issues at all with our current anchor which has performed flawlessly over the last seven or so years and which replaced a Bruce with which we ended up having major issues with.* So at this point we have no reason to switch.

To end this on a positive note, I will say that we would definitely buy a SARCA over a Bruce, CQR, Manson, Danforth, Spade, Claw, XYZ, that ugly square one with all the teeth, and all the variations on those themes, as I believe--- based on user testimonials and my own interpretation of the design's basic attributes, but not on personal experience--- that the SARCA is head and shoulders above all those anchor types.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 01:56:31 AM

The schooner Forester (a coastal carrier of lumber) has stayed*ashore of* Martinez, CA for decades without benefit of anchor.* Pictured here at low tide.




-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 02:07:37 AM

This hull, fully imbedded in the bank of the Napa River, has no need of an anchor either.

I bet they were relying on a Bruce when the wind came up

No, believe them to be intentional groundings.
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Maybe they looked at their Bruce, measured the wind, and ran the boats aground just to be on the safe side.

Marin wrote:
Maybe they looked at their Bruce, measured the wind, and ran the boats aground just to be on the safe side.

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Here's the trawler Ark (documentation no. 980719).* Noah wisely chose a Bruce.**
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-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 04:02:27 PM

Good day, again.

I thought I ought to clarify my comment on not liking trip release. My reasoning is, basically I do not need one. My understanding from the literature is that trip release will only work if you intentionally try to trip them, which I think means you need to shorten the scope up, my belief is its a boat and in theory it should work in practice but in practice there might be something wrong with the thoery. But having said that I live in the land of SARCA and have never heard of anyone accidentally tripping his SARCA (and there would a most vociferous lobby if this was a real problem, Australians can be just as vocal as people on, say, the Trawler Forum!). I have tried 'testing' the trip release of a SARCA, small SARCA, bigger boat - but that might not be the same as using it, night after night.

I confess that we use a gal SARCA Excel, a completely different design and not to be confused with the Super SARCA. Its the best thing since the chartplotter (to get away from simple things like sliced bread). I am sure there are anchors that are as good - but here, with our supply base I would not change it. But never say never, new designs come out, old ones are revamped and if I find a better one I'll change. The cost of an anchor is simply insignificant given its benefits, a $1,000 anchor over a couple of years works out at $1-$2 a night - seems cheap security to me. Though why anyone would spend the same sort of money for an anchor that has only half the holding capacity or collects mud or needs major modification to fit the bow roller or is made by people with dubious backgrounds beggars belief. Equally how people can be so critical of a design they have never used, or even seen, and simultaneously professing to be experts might raise questions over their affiliations. The Excel works in all the seabed types we encounter, sand, mud, medium weed (cannot cope with kelp) gravel and rubbly bottoms and it comes up clean. It copes with a change of setting direction, whether 90 or 180 degrees. It also fits our bow roller, without modification and I suspect will fit any normal bow roller. We cruise down Tasmania's west coast, which can be character building at times. I could equally be praiseworthy of the Spade, but its not available here, is very expensive wherever it is available and does not have the Excel's high strength shank. I'm sorry the Excel is not available to those of you in N America, or Europe - no wonder they call Australia the lucky country! - must be really galling for those in another of the ex-colonies.

And I have no affiliations or interest in Anchor Right, Spade (except to support their successful products) nor any other anchor maker.

Have a great day!

markpierce wrote:
Here's the trawler Ark (documentation no. 980719).* Noah wisely chose a Bruce.**
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-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 28th of February 2012 04:02:27 PM

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* * * ** I love the lines of this boat!

Jon,
i see you are a Sydney sider and you state you cruise down to Tassie.
I have yet to head south and as you say it can be character building.
Would like to get your view on stop over anchorages especially once you get south of Jarvis Bay.
I know Lakes Entrance is doable but it looks like one could get traped in there and miss a weather window.

Like you I have a SARCA Excel on the pointy end.
Welcome on board by the way.

Happy to fill in, our experiances, but is it too focussed (niche, way out)*for an international audience and would the majority prefer it was done by PM.* I'm not sure of etiquette on this site.

But the anchorages have varied bottoms, weed, sand, big pebbles and rocks, horrible tides - so if they do not mind, they might find it of interest (but Tasmania is pretty 'off piste').

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Interesting thread going on here. I won't speak for the new owner of the board, but only what I, as a mod, think about the aspects mentioned above.

I think there needs to be a distinction between coming onto this forum and blatantly selling versus coming and discussing your product. Understandably, there is a lot of gray matter there and it's subject to a lot of interpretation. A retailer or manufacturer must know that in this age of the interweb tubes, their designs, product, and even corporate philosophy will be scrutinized, dissected, and discussed. They need to be able to defend it (and should) when it comes under fire, because no matter what... it will.

That said, this forum is the perfect place for that. Where else would a manufacturer want to get exposure about, in this case and anchor, a boating product than here? This is their DIRECT target market. However, they need to be ready for the scrutiny that will surely follow. And to specifically address Marin and Rex's discussion, I don't feel like it was anything but Marin challenging the claims of the slotted shank of the SARCA and Rex defending them. Marin is a reputable contributor to this forum and has been nothing short of courteous in most, if not all his posts (albeit a tad "wordy" :-D ).

I certainly understand how Rex feels though. And if I might say that I would like to thank him for joining Trawler Forum and HOPE he doesn't leave. Regardless of what a few members believe, there are others that have a different opinion. I am fairly sure that someone that designs and sells anchors has spent a LONG time around boats and could be an outstanding contributor to this forum.

Finally, I will never understand why, of all the systems and hardware on a boat, ANCHORS provide the most passionate debates. "I love this... Yours must totally, like, suck... Yo' Momma a Bruce and yo' daddy used a CQR." Indeed, that's why we broke out the topic to its own forum. Anchor manufacture's MUST know this and the smart ones capitalize on it, but in the context of The Trawler Forums (less the OTDE section), we are all friends here. We do not want to scare anyone away, nor should any member be discouraged by the opinions of a few (or one). If I had ONE wish, it would be that we could ALL be transported to the same place for a few hours. I REALLY want to meet all of you guys. Unfortunately, it's likely that most of our paths will never cross and this little window on my coffee table will be the only interaction I'll ever have with y'all. It'll have to do.

.......and ...for God's sake don't let this thread die until Nomadwilly (Eric) gets back on line....

Anode wrote:
.......and ...for God's sake don't let this thread die until Nomadwilly (Eric) gets back on line....

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Eric must still be off doing his secret speed trials. (Caught in action in Healhustler's recent spy photo).