Too much anchor

PS, I wrote this post about the same time Rex was writing his by the looks, so it was not there when I started...but you have to admit we are consistent...

I wasn't going to get into this any more, but I have to ask just this one last question Marin. Did you actually read what I said last post, (carefully), and have you actually looked at my pics closely - thinking about the laws of physics involved? Then, after doing so, please explain, (thinking here of these people you know, who allege their anchor backed out because of the slot and nearly saw them wrecked on a lee shore), how is it a shackle can slide back up a shank towards the fluke, in a slot, (no matter how badly designed), when there a several tons of tension pulling it in the opposite direction?

The only way a shackle can be induced to slide back along the slot is when it is virtually in-line, virtually vertically above, and under very light tension - otherwise it won't - anything more and it jams in position, and just pulls on the shank, like any other end fixed anchor chain would do - simple as that. As to seeing the marks on the shank - sorry, but balderdash....I've been tripping my anchor deliberately for years, as I said before, and you cannot see shackle marks on the slot, so if they say they can...or if they actually found the shackle jammed at the wrong end, then it says something about the design of the slot, or the slot shackle combination they were using was wrong, (and it is important that coupling is correct and to manufacturer recommendations - feel free to correct me if I'm wrong here Rex), and therefore the anchor was prevented somehow (jammed most likely) from re-setting as it should as soon as tension went on it as the wind turned and it became a lee shore....

In a bay tidal currents are never straight in and straight out, and wind angles similarly drift around, so the only way an anchor slot could trip an anchor is in the freakishly unlikely event of the wind being so light, that whatever wind/tide combination moved the boat, it drifted right back over the anchor in perfect alignment with the shank towards the fluke end, and without any sideways pull, and nothing on the bottom deflecting the shackle end of the chain more than a few centimeters. How likely is that...and in those conditions - if it ever happened - who cares - you would not even know, and if the wind came up, any decent roll bar anchor, like your Rocna or a Sarca, would re-set so quick you would not notice. Just think of the physics and look at the pics, and tell me that ain't so....


-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 24th of February 2012 06:45:28 PM

Hi PETER,

You are correct, fitting of the shackle should be as manufacturers instructions, whether it be a slott or hole if the shackle is jaming simly because it is to large, or to small it will effect the concept of any design, the shackle is like the ignition on you car, if it is not free to turn it simply wont work.

Until this forum Pete I didn't know you from a bar of salt, if you are idle I might have to give you a job, nice accurate comments with no spin, rare these day's.

Regards.
Rex.
Ceo Anchorright Australia

Can I take that as a yes for a shout for a beer at the Cove Show in May, Rex...? If so, you're on...a beer can still taste nice even if the air is full of lies...I mean flies....

FF wrote:
The big advance in anchoring in the past 100 years has been the "lightweight" anchor.** Yachts "back then" would consider a 200lb anchor on a 40 ft boat mighty small, just for overnight.** Just look at an old Yachting , and see what was "normal" before Danforth and WWII.*

(I wonder how long it took for Danforth to gain credibility - my insert)

Today folks think nothing of using a 35 or 40 lb anchor to do the same job , helped of course by more stretchible anchor line.

That this anchor is better than that anchor is a bowl of crap, if you want to hold BETTER simply use a BIGGER anchor.

Click to expand...

_________________________________

Click to expand...

Fred, I was going to bail out at this point, but what you said, above does hold a fair amount of truth.* As you say, a lump of concrete does as a mooring - heavy.

Click to expand...

So I felt moved to make one more comment, basically to give a reason why it is worth people reviewing what they are using, even though, as you say, the majority stick with what has worked for them.* Even now, the majority of pleasure boats here in Aus are sporting CQR/Plough types for example, "because they have always worked" - might have been a bugger to get set often however, (this I know), but often in the conditions these people anchor out in they don't even realise it did not set.** And any anchor with a bit of weight, after sitting there on a softish bottom, with the movement back and forth with the tug of the boat tends to dig itself in more anyway.* It is how fast they set, then grip the bottom when one goes to up-anchor after only a few hours on the pick that really tells the story.

Click to expand...

Marin has also made a good point in the past that one's anchor always works well - until one time it doesn't, and that one time can be critical.*

Click to expand...

However, the main point is this.* Sure, with an adequately weighted anchor, it has always been said, the main job the anchor does is locate the end of the chain, and resist it sliding along the bottom, the weight of the chain then does the rest in the vast majority of occasions.* Most people deliberately only anchor out in light conditions - often the wind drops to effectively zero at night in many places, and their anchor is never ever really put to the test - until, that is, one night the light conditions change to unexpectedly heavy conditions.....sometimes with scarey results.* But you are right, up till then any weight would have done.* So what are we really looking for in a general purpose anchor to make it justified to look further?* One that sets quickly, easily and reliably, in all conditions and as many bottom types as possible, and with maximum ease of use & stowage/deployment, and that also holds well.* That's what we are after - hassle-free anchoring.* That is the feature many anchors lack.* Some are clumsy shapes and difficult to stow, even if they hold well.* Some are bitches to set, but once set hold quite well.* Some set quick, but just don't hold well, but look sexy on the pulpit and stow well.* Few have all those desirable characteristics together.* That is why it is worth it for the search to go on.....*

Click to expand...

-- Edited by Peter B on Friday 24th of February 2012 07:44:08 PM

Hi Peter. Resistance is a great thing it will sought out B.S. in the long run, as I said at the beginning, it is an actual user that started this friction by simply doing what any good forum member should do, pass on info to make what he believes safer boating, not the manufacture, its all good.

What I have noticed is given the fact that there are many thousands of Sarcas out there you are one lone wolf my friend, now I could have rallied replies from many users but that is not my style, I have had a couple of PM from the trawler forum telling me how good our product is but have refrained to get in involved? Wonder why.

Going by what we have seen in the past from opposition companies, the amount of testimonials coming through every forum was enough to make one think the world was being taken over by new generation anchors.
I say that given the fact you still come across the odd happy new generation user but hey, I have heard nothing more on this forum except for the rebirth of old generation anchors.

Maybe there is a link called dial a friend then I can have as many customers as I want to create spin, sorry for being cynical but the onslaught not long past seems not as dense, just an eco .
Dont worry fellers I am not coming over to try and change your world, this thing with Seacor will depend on how they find them, and the response they get then after, so far the response has been good, hopefully we will be sending another order soon as they only have a couple left.

Remember this when exploring the possibility of purchsing a new anchor, if the manufacturer tells you, you will never drag this anchor,it is spin don't buy it.

Peter B Be sure to be sure I will definitely catch up with you at the boat show.
Regards to all,
Rex.
CEO Anchor right Australia.

Peter B wrote:
The only way a shackle can be induced to slide back along the slot is when it is virtually in-line, virtually vertically above, and under very light tension - otherwise it won't - etc .......

Click to expand...

I've often wondered if I could deliberately*induce my shackle to slide up the shank when I wanted to trip the anchor.* I have a great deal of difficulty believing there is any scenario where it could accidentally trip because the shackle slid up the shank.* Peter did a great job of explaining my exact thoughts on the matter.* I know that our Sarca hooks up fast and solid - the whole boat actually vibrates when it hooks up.* And it holds up to 1/2 throttle - likely further but I've never bothered trying.* I absolutely can't say that about the CQR that hangs next to it.

Hi Bob, goodonya - another believer...and in the Americas as well. Good to hear all is well with your ground gear. I'm sure the others would love to hear from others besides me and Rex re the Sarca. At the end of the day, we all just want to help each other enjoy boating better.
Yeah - it's a wet Saturday here, otherwise I'd be out doing it and not on here so much, but heh...it fills in the time. I'm half expecting anchoring guru, Nomadwilly Eric, to join in soon. I think he's now got to where he's going, but probably still unpacking.

Rex, you're on, and don't worry mate. We're all good friends on here, and we all enjoy the repartee. No-one, (well almost no-one), takes anything personally, and we can all end up agreeing on other things, or even if it's just not to agree...

Don't yah just love these anchoring biffos tho...? Eric, where are you - you're missing all he fun....

I,m not sayin much about all this except I know my anchor works a treat.
late anchorage on the winward side of Big Woody Island in Jan with a 35 knot NW blowin. Both the Boss and i were a little worried but it all held together.
My Sarca ExCel held in there. Love it.
No slot , but then again I am not a fan of slots in anchors.
Never laid an anchor around an oil rig or platform with a slot, doesn't mean it is not right but that is just my 10 cents worth.
Now back to work we have a barge to tow.

Cheers

I wonder how long it took for Danforth to gain credibility - my insert

Probably as landing craft were able to be recovered in adverse conditions , rather than simply being discarded.

Winched into breaking waves off a beach, till in deep enough water for the engine to work.

In soft bottoms surface areas if probably more important than the ability to be pulled deeper.

Down 2 ft in ooze or down 12 ft in ooze , its still ooze.

Any* manufacturers claim that some big buck watch fob will work at all times in all bottoms is on par with a politico claiming he will "end waste fraud and corruption".

About that great bridge in Brooklyn ,,,,,,,,,


-- Edited by FF on Saturday 25th of February 2012 04:35:26 AM

Dear old FF...

Fred, I think your middle initial must be C...for cynic. Ah well.....

I've never quite understood the worries over a slotted anchor shank. *As has been noted, if you don't like it, put a stopper bolt in place and go to sleep. *However, if you anchor in coral a lot, the ability to easily back out the anchor is a great feature. *Nice to have options, isn't it?

While I don't own one, I have been a fan of the Excel for the simple reason that Sarca has produced what I think is the best testing rig for anchors I have seen that facilitates comparative testing in an apples to apples way, and based on those tests the Excel seems as good as the owners who have one say it is. The videos are available on their website, and are, IMHO, impressive. *

Probably the most impressive of the videos is the one that shows how quickly and cleanly an Excel buries itself. *Clearly the sea bed determines the ultimate resistance a buried anchor can provide, but one under the bed rather than plowing through it or partially buried will be the best bet, especially when the surface area presenting resistance to drag is taken into consideration.

*

If one anchors in waters where the currents and winds don't shift much, the slot is not an issue. In the PNW, we anchor in waters that totally change direction four times a day, and in winds that shift all over the place because of the influence of the multiple island geography.

When we anchor we will sometimes put out a trip line and a buoy because some of our bays are old logging sites and there can be all sorts of trash--- cables, waterlogged logs, big pieces of old machinery, etc--- on the bottom. The trip line buoy sits pretty much directly above the anchor. If I had a timelapse camera on our boat that had a 360-degree view, you would see that in the course of a day the boat migrates to all points of the compass relative to the buoy's position, as well as right up next to the buoy and way far away from it. Depending on the combination of wind and current, your boat can be held with strain on the anchor rode at 90 degrees or more from the initial direction of set. This is the point that users with slotted anchors have made in their forum comments and in reviews. With a degree of pull on the rode, if the boat gets around to 90-degrees or more, the shackle in the slot can slide down to the fluke end. As soon as that happens, the pull on the rode will try to back the anchor out. Sometimes, according to the people who have complained about this, it succeeds in backing the anchor out completely.

That's not to say a boat pulling on an anchor more than 90 degrees from the direction of set won't unset the anchor, either. But it apparently takes far less pressure to get that shackle sliding than it does to break out a well-set anchor. And once the shackle is at the fluke end of the shank, it takes very little pressure to back the anchor itself out. It's the whole reason some of use a trip line in iffy bottoms.

Now you can spin your anchor to make it sound like the shackle never slides, can't slide, won't slide even in a typhoon. You are a manufacturer's rep and, in the face of people who have experienced otherwise but have no reason to promote or denounce an anchor based on their job, you have zero credibility with me when it comes to defending what seems to be a proven potential problem with a slot.

So much for that.

However, the other reason I think a slotted shank is a less-than-ideal design for the waters we boat in (except for specific applications like fishing where anchoring can take place over rocky bottoms, kelp beds, etc. when the ability to move the boat around to the other side and back it out is a major benefit) is that it requires the shank to be wider (taller) than it needs to be. Not a problem on some boats, but it can be a problem on others. We would have to fabricate a new pulpit bail, for example, with all the dissassembly and reassembly of the pulpit that this would require, if were we to go with an anchor with a tall, slotted shank.

The SARCA has a proven track record of success. If we were in the market for a new anchor today we would definitely consider one other than the issue with the too-tall shank.* And as Carl said, if we boated in a place where hanging the anchor up on coral was a constant issue, then the slot could be very beneficial. I assume that's what the waters are like in the region where the SARCA was designed.* Particulalry if it's also uncommon for a boat to end up pulling sideways or backwards on the anchor due to constantly changing-- and often strong--- currents and winds.* I've never boated down there so I don't know.

But for our waters with our constantly shifting currents and winds, there are other anchor designs that are a bit better, I think, and that don't come with the slot that--- in the waters I boat in--- presents a potential risk. I know the rode can be fastened in such a way as to be impossible to slide which is what I would do. But you're still stuck with that too-tall shank, which may nor may not present a problem.

PS If you think each fluke of a CQR is not concave then you might want to repeat high school geometry. Look at the photo. Notice how the curve of each fluke curves AWAY from the direction of pull or the material being forced up against it. That's called concave.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 25th of February 2012 02:01:41 PM

Marin wrote:
If one anchors in waters where the currents and winds don't shift much, the slot is not an issue. In the PNW, we anchor in waters that totally change direction four times a day, and in winds that shift all over the place because of the influence of the multiple island geography.

When we anchor we will sometimes put out a trip line and a buoy because some of our bays are old logging sites and there can be all sorts of trash--- cables, waterlogged logs, big pieces of old machinery, etc--- on the bottom. The trip line buoy sits pretty much directly above the anchor. If I had a timelapse camera on our boat that had a 360-degree view, you would see that in the course of a day the boat migrates to all points of the compass relative to the buoy's position, as well as right up next to the buoy and way far away from it. Depending on the combination of wind and current, your boat can be held with strain on the anchor rode at 90 degrees or more from the initial direction of set. This is the point that users with slotted anchors have made in their forum comments and in reviews. With a degree of pull on the rode, if the boat gets around to 90-degrees or more, the shackle in the slot can slide down to the fluke end. As soon as that happens, the pull on the rode will try to back the anchor out. Sometimes, according to the people who have complained about this, it succeeds in backing the anchor out completely.

That's not to say a boat pulling on an anchor more than 90 degrees from the direction of set won't unset the anchor, either. But it apparently takes far less pressure to get that shackle sliding than it does to break out a well-set anchor. And once the shackle is at the fluke end of the shank, it takes very little pressure to back the anchor itself out. It's the whole reason some of use a trip line in iffy bottoms.

Now you can spin your anchor to make it sound like the shackle never slides, can't slide, won't slide even in a typhoon. You are a manufacturer's rep and, in the face of people who have experienced otherwise but have no reason to promote or denounce an anchor based on their job, you have zero credibility with me when it comes to defending what seems to be a proven potential problem with a slot.

So much for that.

However, the other reason I think a slotted shank is a less-than-ideal design for the waters we boat in (except for specific applications like fishing where anchoring can take place over rocky bottoms, kelp beds, etc. when the ability to move the boat around to the other side and back it out is a major benefit) is that it requires the shank to be wider (taller) than it needs to be. Not a problem on some boats, but it can be a problem on others. We would have to fabricate a new pulpit bail, for example, with all the dissassembly and reassembly of the pulpit that this would require, if were we to go with an anchor with a tall, slotted shank.

The SARCA has a proven track record of success. If we were in the market for a new anchor today we would definitely consider one other than the issue with the too-tall shank.* And as Carl said, if we boated in a place where hanging the anchor up on coral was a constant issue, then the slot could be very beneficial. I assume that's what the waters are like in the region where the SARCA was designed.* Particulalry if it's also uncommon for a boat to end up pulling sideways or backwards on the anchor due to constantly changing-- and often strong--- currents and winds.* I've never boated down there so I don't know.

But for our waters with our constantly shifting currents and winds, there are other anchor designs that are a bit better, I think, and that don't come with the slot that--- in the waters I boat in--- presents a potential risk. I know the rode can be fastened in such a way as to be impossible to slide which is what I would do. But you're still stuck with that too-tall shank, which may nor may not present a problem.

PS If you think each fluke of a CQR is not concave then you might want to repeat high school geometry. Look at the photo. Notice how the curve of each fluke curves AWAY from the direction of pull or the material being forced up against it. That's called concave.



-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 25th of February 2012 02:01:41 PM

Click to expand...

*I agree with a lot..

The only thing and you are right about concave in relation to the shank...but I think... and I'll say think and not "know" a second time...*they mostly talk about it being convex to the bottom and the scoop type are concave to the bottom.


-- Edited by psneeld on Saturday 25th of February 2012 02:06:04 PM

psneeld wrote:

The only thing and you are right about concave in relation to the shank...but I think... and I'll say think and not "know" a second time...*they mostly talk about it being convex to the bottom and the scoop type are concave to the bottom.

Click to expand...

I think you're correct.* If you take the CQR as a whole and regard both halves of the fluke as a single entity, the fluke is convex because relative to a flat plane 90 degrees to the shank, the fluke sticks forward, not rearwards.

But it's obvious that if the two individual flukes were themselves convex--- curved forward--the CQR would most likely not work at all as there would be nothting to "trap" the bottom material and put resistance against it.

If you want to generate the maximum resistance against something like sand, mud, whatever, a convex surface will help the material slide off, and away, a flat plane will generate a lot of resistand but shed it fast if* the plane gets off-angle to the direction of pull, and a concave surface will generate maximum resistance like the flat plane but has a reduced tendency to veer off and shed all the resistance.* The concave surface "traps" the resistance, so to speak. Which is why the individual flukes of the CQR are concave, not convex.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 25th of February 2012 02:23:57 PM

Marin wrote:
If one anchors in waters where the currents and winds don't shift much, the slot is not an issue. In the PNW, we anchor in waters that totally change direction four times a day, and in winds that shift all over the place because of the influence of the multiple island geography.

When we anchor we will sometimes put out a trip line and a buoy because some of our bays are old logging sites and there can be all sorts of trash--- cables, waterlogged logs, big pieces of old machinery, etc--- on the bottom. The trip line buoy sits pretty much directly above the anchor. If I had a timelapse camera on our boat that had a 360-degree view, you would see that in the course of a day the boat migrates to all points of the compass relative to the buoy's position, as well as right up next to the buoy and way far away from it. Depending on the combination of wind and current, your boat can be held with strain on the anchor rode at 90 degrees or more from the initial direction of set. This is the point that users with slotted anchors have made in their forum comments and in reviews. With a degree of pull on the rode, if the boat gets around to 90-degrees or more, the shackle in the slot can slide down to the fluke end. As soon as that happens, the pull on the rode will try to back the anchor out. Sometimes, according to the people who have complained about this, it succeeds in backing the anchor out completely.

That's not to say a boat pulling on an anchor more than 90 degrees from the direction of set won't unset the anchor, either. But it apparently takes far less pressure to get that shackle sliding than it does to break out a well-set anchor. And once the shackle is at the fluke end of the shank, it takes very little pressure to back the anchor itself out. It's the whole reason some of use a trip line in iffy bottoms.

Now you can spin your anchor to make it sound like the shackle never slides, can't slide, won't slide even in a typhoon. You are a manufacturer's rep and, in the face of people who have experienced otherwise but have no reason to promote or denounce an anchor based on their job, you have zero credibility with me when it comes to defending what seems to be a proven potential problem with a slot.

So much for that.

However, the other reason I think a slotted shank is a less-than-ideal design for the waters we boat in (except for specific applications like fishing where anchoring can take place over rocky bottoms, kelp beds, etc. when the ability to move the boat around to the other side and back it out is a major benefit) is that it requires the shank to be wider (taller) than it needs to be. Not a problem on some boats, but it can be a problem on others. We would have to fabricate a new pulpit bail, for example, with all the dissassembly and reassembly of the pulpit that this would require, if were we to go with an anchor with a tall, slotted shank.

The SARCA has a proven track record of success. If we were in the market for a new anchor today we would definitely consider one other than the issue with the too-tall shank.* And as Carl said, if we boated in a place where hanging the anchor up on coral was a constant issue, then the slot could be very beneficial. I assume that's what the waters are like in the region where the SARCA was designed.* Particulalry if it's also uncommon for a boat to end up pulling sideways or backwards on the anchor due to constantly changing-- and often strong--- currents and winds.* I've never boated down there so I don't know.

But for our waters with our constantly shifting currents and winds, there are other anchor designs that are a bit better, I think, and that don't come with the slot that--- in the waters I boat in--- presents a potential risk. I know the rode can be fastened in such a way as to be impossible to slide which is what I would do. But you're still stuck with that too-tall shank, which may nor may not present a problem.

PS If you think each fluke of a CQR is not concave then you might want to repeat high school geometry. Look at the photo. Notice how the curve of each fluke curves AWAY from the direction of pull or the material being forced up against it. That's called concave.



-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 25th of February 2012 02:01:41 PM

Click to expand...

*I also agree with Marin, particularly on the too tall shank bit. My XXXXX anchor is not slotted yet the shank is almost too tall in its own right.

In our part of the world, the PNW/BC coast, we have hauled up boom cables, chain, and other stuff that we're not sure of since we never got it up far enough to see what it was. Only after interesting recovery methods (every one a "custom design") have we managed to keep the ground tackle. Boating with a friend one time we were not so fortunate, so if anyone is looking for a 22# Danforth, I can give you the treasure map...

By the way, in general I've only heard very good things about the SARCA.

Marin, have you every had to use the trip line?*

Conrad wrote:
Marin, have you every had to use the trip line?*

Click to expand...

We've deployed it a number of times and when we do I always back the anchor out with it since I have to retrieve the trip line and buoy anyway.* So backing the anchor out makes it that much faster to haul it up.

We have anchored in a few bays that have a reputation for foul bottoms, and on those occasions we always use the trip line.* And use it to back the anchor out before retrieving.* There have been one or two times when we believed the anchor might have been fouled on something based on how it was acting as we pulled the boat up to lie over it, but the trip line backed it out with no problems and we never learned what--- if anything--- the anchor was caught on.* The anchor seemed to act like it was snagged on a cable but we were never positive about this.


-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 25th of February 2012 08:27:06 PM

The large (if you have the right size anchor) fluke size of a Danforth makes a reset , instead of a plaining anchor somewhat iffy.

The solution in Ogg's (the inventor) booklet is really simple. TWO , anchors , fore and aft .

AS folks like my self that prefer the Bahamian Moore , the stern anchor is a 2 -3 min job with almost no effort.

Of course if the 60KG! Bruce is retrievable with our existing hydraulics , Beer Time / Chips and Dip could come 3 min earlier!

The following is long a winded response and presented in two sections should anyone be interested.it will be posted in two sections.

Marin Marin Marin,

What does one do with you, Im a spin doctor, I have no credibility, I should go back to school, just another manufacturers rep. Crickey, lucky I have got warts and dont taste to nice, I told you at the beginning I wasnt a nice piece of steak, you are going to have to sharpen your knife again after this post. Did someone say its all a bit of fun these anchor bifos, dont know about you MARIN but I m a little confused after some of your comments.
In a previous post Marin Wrote; Prior to my life in aerospace I had another life in commercial advertising.* So I know firsthand I have long since learned to take manufacturers' claims with a grain of salt.* A really big grain of how to spin a product deficiency into a positive attribute because I used to do it.
Marin I dont think its my credibility that is inquestion, take some of the gloss of your computer screen as I think you are getting a reflection, one that can spin a deficiency and turn it into a positive is just as skilled vice versa, I will have ago at *proving this in the following.

Marin Wrote; If one anchors in waters where the currents and winds don't shift much, the slot is not an issue. In the PNW, we anchor in waters that totally change direction four times a day, and in winds that shift all over the place because of the influence of the multiple island geography.

Marin as you have now mentioned several times we have taken care of your concern with the trip release by inserting a lock of bolt, with that said, if you should ever venture into some our coast lines with 11 meter tides gushing faster than you could run, winds that come from all directions at the drop of a hat, wind against tides like that you could not imagine, leave your beloved CQR BEHIND AND GIVE ME A RING.
Marin Wrote; thats not to say a boat pulling on an anchor more than 90 degrees from the direction of set won't unset the anchor, either. But it apparently takes far less pressure to get that shackle sliding than it does to break out a well-set anchor. And once the shackle is at the fluke end of the shank, it takes very little pressure to back the anchor itself out. It's the whole reason some of use a trip line in iffy bottoms.
Marin you are clearly running on assumptions once again, you do keep on, In the meantime short answer as you cannot come to grips with the concept lock out the trip release with bolt supplied, installed in the anchor.
However I will try again, the S/sarca trip release works on a fulcrum with a combination of weight, (NOT FROM THE REAR) this is why its trip release design is automatically resettable in all situations, Note; It was designed long before the onslaught of new generation anchors now sporting similar arrangements.
Please pay attention to the following.
By driving over the S/sarca and afar you will not release the S/sarca from under a rock, debris, reef, so on, the broad convex shape of the rear will simply dig in, further pressure is applied by the fulcrum point actually pulling down on the rear, and wont move, the only way you can use the S/sarcas trip is by coming directly, vertically over the anchor, cleat or tie of your chain then gently motor forward.
Three things take place all simultaneously, as the boat moves forward the (d) shackle is driven to the rear-fulcrum point of the S/Sarca, by this time it is trying to lift the anchor but not from the rear, the front, this is because of where the shackle is stoped, the excessive weight across the rear and the stoped position of the shackle, continued pressure then starts to lift the rear of the anchor*.
*In other words producing a rear ward spooning affect, this spooning effect is further enhanced by the raised centre press in the convex fluke, the very moment the anchor is released the D shackle vigorously slams back to the front of the shank.


*
Does this mean you will always get your anchor back? It gives you the best chance, absolutely no guarantees.

Marin has emphasized,( Conditions can pull the (D) shackle to the rear of the slot)*
*
I have never once stated it wont) it is a totally different scenario to your floated rear retrieval method,

Next SECTION WILL FOLLOW



-- Edited by Rex on Sunday 26th of February 2012 07:01:17 AM


-- Edited by Rex on Sunday 26th of February 2012 07:16:36 AM

Get this; pulling from the front of an anchors shank say plough Delta as an example, in moderate wind will maximize sideways leverage, this can easily dislodge an anchor of that concept (any), with the S/sarca the (D) shackle from a sideways pull if it should happen and would be rare, slides to the fulcrum point only, not the rear,


Now again a number of things are taking place.
1 The leverage has far less influence on breaking the anchor out as it is minimal compared to the D shackle pulling point from conventional designs.
2 As you are not vertically above the anchor any pulling from this fulcrum point exerts more pressure over the rear of the anchor, conclusion, fact, worst scenario, if the anchor should break out it will not drag rearward, it will sit upward on its hoop, D shackle then slides back to the front position of the shank, the anchor then rolls over and slams in minus unwanted clogged mud an weed.


Marin Wrote; Now you can spin your anchor to make it sound like the shackle never slides, can't slide, won't slide even in a typhoon.
Totally a false statement Marin, repeat as above.
I never once said it couldnt


Marin Wrote; You are a manufacturer's rep and, in the face of people who have experienced otherwise but have no reason to promote or denounce an anchor based on their job, you have zero credibility with me when it comes to defending what seems to be a proven potential problem with a slot.


Thats pretty harsh stuff Marin, Once again if you dont like the slot wack a bolt in it, the slot that is, the latter once again you are assuming, I am the inventor, I am the manufacturer, I own the lot, I am the distributor, not a rep. you are obviously slamming the authorities that approved the design. WOW


Marin Wrote; We would have to fabricate a new pulpit bail, for example, with all the dissassembly and reassembly of the pulpit that this would require, if were we to go with an anchor with a tall, slotted shank.
Simple Marin, dont buy one,


Marine Wrote; I assume that's what the waters are like in the region where the SARCA was designed. Particularly if it's also uncommon for a boat to end up pulling sideways or backwards on the anchor due to constantly changing-- and often strong--- currents and winds. I've never boated down there so I don't know.


Covered this, you are assuming once again and repeating yourself.


Marin Wrote; PS If you think each fluke of a CQR is not concave then you might want to repeat high school geometry. Look at the photo. Notice how the curve of each fluke curves AWAY from the direction of pull or the material being forced up against it. That's called concave.



Marin Wrote; But it's obvious that if the two individual flukes were themselves convex--- curved forward--the CQR would most likely not work at all as there would be nothting to "trap" the bottom material and put resistance against it.


Talk about spin, this ones a dozy;
Yes you are right with some comment on plough design, but you have done a great spin as in directing the readers away from that big fat convex body and concentrating their eyes on these* convex flukes that hang of the rear.


I will try one more time, how about this, convex separates, concave accumulates, two thirds of the plough and the business end are clearly convex, this is why the marine authorities class it as convex, the two* extended flukes that are totally useless unless the convex business end can dig in, these*concave flukes, once the convex section has done its job,*start to dig in and offer very little resistance until fully buried.


In soft sand, mud excetra they work a treat but in harder material will commonly lay on their side, if in the harder substrates*they do dig in*will plough a trench that any farmer would be proud of.I will meet you half way, convex concave if it's going to make you happy.

I suppose you would argue over the Excels concept two, again the Excel has been recorded, recognized as convex, I for one will not argue with the authorities.*

Concave anchors are just that, no portion of convex is presented to the ocean floor to start the digging process. Therfore they are concave. *



You know this has been a real effort.

*

If any one of you is truly interested in anchor development, go to our Webb site www.anchorright.com.au click on video and upload. Presenting the history of Super Sarca, if you want to see comparison as the concept compared to con cave, upload S/sarca to the test, if you want a comparison of new generation as to ploughing clogging and so on upload environment destruction, Excel is also on offer, Excel to the test.


I am going to disappear as I feel I have worn out any welcome if there was one, I would upload the videos myself but do not have a clue on how to do it, you will find them interesting, they will make excellent conversation and you can have your own take on what I have been spewing, then you can put the wood on Marin and ask his take on them. Just maybe you may all learn something and could create many more discussions should you take up my suggestion.

Thanks to all, the pms I have received emails and a couple of sales which is not the reason I came on, it was initially to support Peter B. but somehow found it amusing and interesting, as we can all see it is starting to get past that point-time to go.


Regards Rex.
CEO Anchor right Australia.



-- Edited by Rex on Sunday 26th of February 2012 07:13:58 AM



-- Edited by Rex on Sunday 26th of February 2012 07:14:56 AM


-- Edited by Rex on Sunday 26th of February 2012 08:13:17 AM

Thank you very much for your participation Rex. I appreciate the effort and the knowledge.

...leave your beloved CQR BEHIND AND GIVE ME A RING.

We don't have a CQR and never would.* We don't believe in anchors that are shaped to move forward throuh the material they are dug into. (One reason we have realized that your fluke shape is a bit less than ideal too, although certainly not as bad as the CQR's)* We want the maximum resistance to moving through the bottom.* The CQR ain't it.

Your beef is not with me but with the enough-to-make-me-worry number of slotted anchor users who have reported over the years incidents of the shackle sliding down the slot and unsetting the anchor.* If they are all lying take it up with them and convince them that what they say happened didn't.* But these people didn't seem to be representatives of competing anchors, they were just very dissatisfied users.* Which are the people I'm interested in hearing from when making a decision about what to buy.


*

Marin Wrote; Now you can spin your anchor to make it sound like the shackle never slides, can't slide, won't slide even in a typhoon.
I never once said it couldnt

Oh, look, there goes the point.

*

Marin Wrote; You are a manufacturer's rep and.... you have zero credibility with me when it comes to defending what seems to be a proven potential problem with a slot.
Thats pretty harsh stuff...I am the inventor, I am the manufacturer, I own the lot, I am the distributor, not a rep.*

*

It's not harsh, it's reality.* It doesn't matter if you're the inventor or a sales rep.* I've been involved in advertising and promotion long enough to know that if anyone associated with making or selling a product tells me the sky is blue on a sunny day I'm going to look up.


But it has been useful to read the perspective of the manufacturer on the SARCA.* I had initially had the impression that the SARCA was some sort of super-anchor that was truly suited for virtually every anchoring situation based on the praise of a few people on this forum that have them.* At one point last year I had actually made arrangements with a good friend in our flight department to pick one up in Australia and bring it back with him so I could try it.* Not that we are at all dissatisfied with our current anchor but thinking that the SARCA might be even better.* A schedule change negated the arrangement and I'm glad it did.* I now see that the SARCA is a very good anchor but, like all anchor designs it has deficiencies, some of which make it less desirable for our purposes in our waters.

If your company ever decides to make a version without the silly slot and with a less-tall shank on it, do publicize this as I think then you'll have an anchor with a much wider appeal.* Particularly if you tun that fluke around so it faces the right direction





-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 26th of February 2012 02:15:32 PM

Well done guys,you`ve managed to get rid of a well intentioned, knowledgeable and respected anchor manufacturer and developer.
Rex,thanks for your input.
BruceK

BruceK wrote:
Well done guys,you`ve managed to get rid of a well intentioned, knowledgeable and respected anchor manufacturer and developer.

Click to expand...

I'm sure he'll be happy to answer any questions or discuss any aspect of his anchor with you by e-mail.* I'm not a big fan of manufacturers pushing their product -- good or bad---on what is supposed to be (at least so far) a non-commercial discussion board.

Marin wrote:* I'm not a big fan of manufacturers pushing their product -- good or bad---on what is supposed to be (at least so far) a non-commercial discussion board.

Click to expand...

* * * ** Ditto

BruceK wrote:
Well done guys,you`ve managed to get rid of a well intentioned, knowledgeable and respected anchor manufacturer and developer.
Rex,thanks for your input.
BruceK

Click to expand...

Yes, well done guys!!! This is not the place for commercial one sided presentations.*

Marin wrote:BruceK wrote:
Well done guys,you`ve managed to get rid of a well intentioned, knowledgeable and respected anchor manufacturer and developer.

Click to expand...

I'm sure he'll be happy to answer any questions or discuss any aspect of his anchor with you by e-mail.* I'm not a big fan of manufacturers pushing their product -- good or bad---on what is supposed to be (at least so far) a non-commercial discussion board.

I guess I missed the memo that appointed you a moderator.* If the owners of the board didn't want his input here I'm sure they would have dealt with it.* Personally I appreciated the input.*

*

bobofthenorth wrote:
I guess I missed the memo that appointed you a moderator.* If the owners of the board didn't want his input here I'm sure they would have dealt with it.* Personally I appreciated the input.*

*

Click to expand...

There wasn't one. I'm not a moderator nor do I have any wish to be.* But as it is pretty clearly stated that this is a non-commercial site, I'm not going to be shy about slamming a manufacturer or manufacturer's rep who promotes their product on this site.* I don't care if the moderators allow it or not.* Nor do I care if you liked the input or not.* I didn't and responded accordingly.* You can do as you wish.

It's just an internet forum.* It's not like anything that's said here actually matters.* You can like or not like what's said here and say or not say what you want. I and everyone else will do the same.* There aren't any consequences one way or the other.


-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 26th of February 2012 07:48:19 PM

Marin wrote:
*

Click to expand...

It's just an internet forum.* It's not like anything that's said here actually matters.* You can like or not like what's said here and say or not say what you want. I and everyone else will do the same.* There aren't any consequences one way or the other.

*

I couldn't agree more.* But judging by the volume of keystrokes you expend here I think I could be forgiven for not believing you.

*

Marin wrote:
*

Click to expand...

*It's not like anything that's said here actually matters.* You can like or not like what's said here and say or not say what you want. I and everyone else will do the same.* There aren't any consequences one way or the other.



-- Edited by Marin on Sunday 26th of February 2012 07:48:19 PM

*Of course what is said matters; otherwise there is no point saying anything. It matters that a helpful contributor has bailed. If no one with a commercial interest should post in their sphere of interest,make it a rule. Until then,treat their contributions with courtesy. BruceK

BruceK wrote:If no one with a commercial interest should post in their sphere of interest,make it a rule.

Click to expand...

I believe it is-- or was-- a rule as stated by the forum founders.* No commercial promotions or something like that.* Eric Henning and others have made major noise in the past when a manufacturer did exactly what the SARCA guy did.* And I recall John Baker removing posts in the past from manufacturers, service providers, or their reps promoting their products or services.

I just looked in the "welcome to TF posts" and don't see it spelled out like that anymore.* So perhaps the view of the current administrators has changed and it's fine for manufacturers to hawke their products in our faces now.

The primary objective of the SARCA guy was to take advantage of an opportunity to promote his anchor which he did in capital letters and bold type.* I don't participate in a forum like this to read ads, however they're couched, from product manufacturers.* There are other venues for that if I'm in the market for something.* As I said earlier, it you want to talk to the SARCA guy about the properties of his product you can do so by website, e-mail, and probably Facebook and Twitter.* So it's not like you're being deprived of the ability to learn about SARCA anchors from the designer and manufacturer if he doesn't promote his product on this forum.

I treat contributors the way I think they deserve to be treated.* How you treat them is your call.