To have or not to have a pilothouse?

psneeld said:

It's also not practical to actually stand watch from the bridge wing or Portuguese bridge if you are the sole watch stander.

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Hmm good point. So I’d make sure that window placement in the pilot house is such that you could see the radar display from the bridge wing through the window. Engine gauges don’t need constant scanning, but radar is the #1 most helpful tool to the watchstander (other than his eyes). Thanks

I think is hugely depends on your cruising style. For over night passages, having a dark PH while the rest of the boat can have lights is really nice. But for other cruising, a PH could isolate you from others on the boat. Your call whether that’s good or bad . When the PH has enough room, we find it becomes the proverbial kitchen in a house where everyone gathers. It’s typically the best viewing location as well.

twistedtree said:

I think is hugely depends on your cruising style. For over night passages, having a dark PH while the rest of the boat can have lights is really nice. But for other cruising, a PH could isolate you from others on the boat. Your call whether that’s good or bad . When the PH has enough room, we find it becomes the proverbial kitchen in a house where everyone gathers. It’s typically the best viewing location as well.

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We find the same thing. Folks seem to congregate in the PH. Our boat is only really 40’ if you don’t count the 3’ swim step. As such, the PH is about 1-2’ shorter in length than would be ideal. Even so, we have comfortably had 5 adults and an infant all in the PH while under way. It really is the best place to watch the world go by at 7 knots outside of the flybridge.

I can't imagine why a sane person (commercial fishermen excepted) would consider a night time cruise in BC given the debris.

Judging by this comment, this person doesn't do much night cruising/sailing in BC waters. Like all things in life it depends....... 1) forward sonar 2) location 3) cruising speed.

In my sailing days, I hung out with a group of sailboat owners who often left work at 5 PM, arrived at which ever marina in the Vancouver area and above, and would sail off into the darkness as it was either late October, November, December, January, February. At one point I realized I had done more sailing in the dark than in the light. Over time, I personally hit two dead heads which just clunked along the hull.

I actually consider night cruising/sailing to be safer than day time cruising. Most recreational boaters are afraid to cruise in the dark and commercial traffic is greatly reduced. When you see a large commercial vessel, its usually lit up like a ride at the state fair. The only issue you need to be cognizant of is tugs towing barges and log booms, but in the Vancouver area, mostly barges. A Seattle man and his family cruising in Vancouver at night, new to boating, didn't know the light display for a vessel towing a barge and he made the mistake of steering his yacht between the two.

With forward sonar doing 8 knots or less, you have more of a heads up than any visual reference in the dark, unless you have one of those cloudless full moon nights.

rsn48 said:

Judging by this comment, this person doesn't do much night cruising/sailing in BC waters. Like all things in life it depends....... 1) forward sonar 2) location 3) cruising speed.

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Growing up, I spent a lot of time sailing in the dark. Sometimes it was on long races, most of the time it was due to an outboard motor running out of gas, quitting, or in a couple of cases, blowing up. Then the combination of lack of wind and opposing current would make the trip back to our dock a very long process.


As an adult, I prefer to run during daylight hours. I'm not afraid of running at night, but even at 7 knots it can be tough to spot logs in the water. The exception is that I love to leave before dawn. There is is something magical about running the boat while the rest of the crew is asleep, watching the sun come up while sipping a cup of coffee.

Not afraid to boat in the dark, but all operational research I have come across says doing anything in the dark is harder, possibly more dangerous.


Emergencies tend to be amplified by darkness....which is the main reason I pleasure boat in daylight, not darkness.


Obviously, long distance cruisers that need to do overnight passages do them, but at greater risk, especially if not exceptionally prepared.

I've done many overnight sailing adventures. This is an activity that does not involve a couple of props, therein lies a bit of a difference vs a trawler. That said, I'd place a large wager that 75% of the sail boat miles traveled in the PNW are with sails furled.

So, other than RSN, who among us routinely pleasure cruises in the inland PNW waters during darkness in a 30 to 60 foot motor vessel?

sunchaser said:

So, other than RSN, who among us routinely pleasure cruises in the inland PNW waters during darkness in a 30 to 60 foot motor vessel?

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I would wager that age and retirement are the great influences to change those who are routinely making passages in the dark into those who haven't been in the dark in a long time.

In my sailing days, there were many nights that we hadn't yet rounded the turning mark before we could head home and it was already 02:00. Winter cruising would see us arrive at the boat at or after sunset and head out for a stay at an outstation at least 2 hours away. In the rain too.
Nowadays, we go when we know the weather is good, rarely late enough to risk losing the light and getting in late.
I have seen debris in the water all of my life, though since the demise of flat booms, not nearly as much. How long have the loggers been bundling or shipping wood down the BC coast? At least 25 yrs I think.
Nowadays the amount of free driftwood is a small fraction of what it was before that change in log booming practices.

Airstream345 said:

We really dig our raised pilothouse. It's where everyone gathers when underway (it has a big L-shaped Settee and a watch berth), we have great visibility, it's protected and warm in the winter and it doubles as a "room/office" when not underway.

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Ditto: and it's also our dining room leaving the saloon for lounging about and parties! The dinette converts to a double which, is only used on boys fishing trips when I choose to sleep up there..

Then there is the "Cool" factor. Everyone knows women prefer men with pilothouse boats.

Totally unrelated.
I wonder how many former lifelong sailors come in out of the open cockpit to a pilothouse versus a flybridge?

Ted

I planned a night trip from Everett up Admiralty in the winter, thought nothing of it since it was nearly a full moon. Most of the way, you could see nearly as well as daytime and it was calm. Turning North past pt no point, I had the moon behind me and started to catch a few of the tide rips. One was a bit rippled so you could not see the sheen on the water. Sure enough BLAM! I could feel the boat shudder, then the fluttering noise as I glanced my starboard prop. Looking behind I see a shadow on the water, looked as long as the boat, big hurkin tree hiding in the rip. As is typical, I was alone, at night. Searched the bilge, pulled up a few floorboards, no water ingress. Bumped into gear, shaft turning, no apparent wobble. Finally continued on my merry way, but no coffee was required the rest of the night. One ripple was all it took. Scared the bajeezes out of me at the time. I’ve hit things before, but never this hard.

Anyway, I won’t say never, but I rather prefer not to cruise in the dark if I can avoid it. I was piloting from the flybridge for the best visibility, bundled in a thick coat and blanket because I didn’t want to hit anything. Night is just more hazardous.

If the OP were to be a bit more revealing on things like cruising grounds, desired boat speed, budget, boat appliances, number of berths, ER access etc possibly some different answers would spring forth.

Thanks for all the great replies... we are looking at 42-50' used trawlers (10-15 years old), with 2 staterooms, and good ER access and space. We live on Lake Michigan but intend to do the loop first and then use the boat as our second home during the winter months cruising around Florida and the Bahamas. We may or may not bring it back up here to Lake Michigan. We do not plan to do ocean or night cruising. We are also trying to get a flybridge for an additional place to sit. I guess my thought is, we will spend almost 80% of our waking hours near the helm of the boat so I just want to think through the options. I think the biggest point made was the lack of visibility from a salon helm. Because we have always had the "mantra" its a boat first.

Other factors we have prioritized are draft, protected running gear and probably single engine (however we are considering the DeFever RPH).

With that said our candidates at the moment are, Selene 43 or 47, Krogen 42, 44 or 48, and DeFever RPH. We like the NP 45 but it is over our budget. We are also curious about the Symbol 45.

The posts in this conversation have helped to reinforce our thoughts that a PH is a good idea if we can find the right boat! Thanks again for everyone's input!

If you decide on a Flybridge, possibly with a hard top, keep in mind the air draft to clear the fixed bridge (19' to 20') on the Des Plaines river leaving Lake Michigan.

Ted

dhays said:

. There is is something magical about running the boat while the rest of the crew is asleep, watching the sun come up while sipping a cup of coffee.

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Absolutely agree. Add to that, some quiet water and a cool flow of air and that’a about as good as it gets.

My vote = Pilothouse. Hands down. (for us).

Pilot house for sure.

The food, A/C and head are inside. To me, that is the best reason for me.

nemier said:

My vote = Pilothouse. Hands down. (for us).

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Yeah, well I agree. However I just need to point out that with a Pilothouse that nice, you wouldn’t need a salon or a cabin. Just add galley and head and you would be set!

Pilothouse Rules

Our pilothouse became the go to area of the boat. It's really cool to have all the electronics at a helm that is separate from the rest of the vessel. Heck, my wife brings my coffee to my office. LOL The other point is it really is safer and better when things go wrong with the weather. It can be made dark, it gives plenty of handholds, and it really has the "cool" boat feel. We spend the majority of our time there. Oh, we also have quick access to the flybridge for trips headed both up and down. Good luck.

dhays said:

Yeah, well I agree. However I just need to point out that with a Pilothouse that nice, you wouldn’t need a salon or a cabin. Just add galley and head and you would be set!

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Right, in the boat size range being considered, it's hard to make room for a PH without seriously compromising other space. And his use doesn't really call for one, so I think I'd prioritize salon space, probably with a helm, and then a nice fly bridge.

LOVE OUR PILOTHOUSE! Always the perfect temp, not to much sun and when you want it go up to the fly bridge. You expands your cruising to nights and in all sorts of weather. would never have boat with out one again.

Should one have a control station in an extended salon or a isolated pilot house; probably depends on the type of cruising one has interest. I have a pilot house and wouldn't have it any other way. It removes the boat operator from the distractions of the salon and galley. Typically the pilot house is designed for one purpose and that's to operate the vessel with the controls and instruments well placed for the operator. If on the other hand one is more of a social boater, then perhaps an integrated salon and operators station is preferable. Certainly less expensive to build an integrated salon and operators station. In the final analysis I look to work boats for the answer and in virtually every case it is pilot house separate from living and social spaces.

In my professional life, I piloted carriers, a battleship, many destroyers and frigates, a tugboat and even a fast ferry (from New Jersey to San Diego) through every clime and natural lighting; so working from a pilothouse just seemed natural. I never thought one of my lookouts could see any better in any lighting conditions than I could through the UNTINTED glass. I spent 90 percent of the many years I piloted my Grand Banks 42 at the lower station in the salon - the flying bridge was without radar up there, remote, lonely, and too far from the food and drink . It was for moving around in marinas and other tight situations. It was a furnace in the summer with the heat radiating off the Sunbrella bimini. At night, we were very careful about lighting so that we did not suffer from reflections on the inside of the window glass. Tinting your windows will make night operations simply impossible from behind glass. As the avatar shows, my current boat does not allow for much "going outside" when underway - I either see what is ahead through glass (untinted, of course) or it is not seen. Were I in the op's shoes, I would opt for the PH model every time.

Work boats are by nature larger than your average pleasure boat. I live very close to French Creek marina on Vancouver Island and I am there usually 2 or 3 days a week to just watch all the action while waiting for my boat refit to be completed. It was a mad house during herring season (about a week and a half).

Not only were there boats in an out at the fish plant but Sea Lions were there en mass hoping to score fall out. Below is a poorly done video posted by the French Creek marina to illustrate it, warning - technically its a bad video done by some one who doesn't understand photography.

If you skip to the 6 minute mark you will see the commercial (working) boats there, yes they do have pilot houses but also look at their size. I"m not being anti-pilot house, I'm just being anti-pilot house for certain sized boats.

Warning again, poor video technique but at the 6 minute mark you will see better picture quality and not a gittery image.


For photographers out there, this video is an excellent resource to see why you should use a lens hood.

Pilot House

The real question regarding having a PH or not seems to me to turn on what one primarily wants to do with his boat. An incorporated saloon space adds lots of extra relaxing and entertaining room, but it comes at a price. The two most expensive are: 1.) By virtue of the positioning of the helm station, when underway there is little or no forward facing seating. Most of the area surrounding the helm is given over to galley space or to wrap around built ins. Neither is conduce to sharing the cruising experience with the lone helmsman. 2.) For the same reason as above, most saloon layouts preclude exiting or entering the boat at or near the helm station. This is especially troublesome in foul weather and during docking maneuvers.

As noted elsewhere, a discreet pilothouse, preferably with port and starboard doors, provides the light restriction needed for night navigation, the access for docking and foul weather movement, and, perhaps most importantly, the cozy space for captain AND crew (or whatever dimensions) to share the forward and side looking cruising experience, even when floating on the hook.

MountainSailor said:

The real question regarding having a PH or not seems to me to turn on what one primarily wants to do with his boat. An incorporated saloon space adds lots of extra relaxing and entertaining room, but it comes at a price. The two most expensive are: 1.) By virtue of the positioning of the helm station, when underway there is little or no forward facing seating. Most of the area surrounding the helm is given over to galley space or to wrap around built ins. Neither is conduce to sharing the cruising experience with the lone helmsman. 2.) For the same reason as above, most saloon layouts preclude exiting or entering the boat at or near the helm station. This is especially troublesome in foul weather and during docking maneuvers.

As noted elsewhere, a discreet pilothouse, preferably with port and starboard doors, provides the light restriction needed for night navigation, the access for docking and foul weather movement, and, perhaps most importantly, the cozy space for captain AND crew (or whatever dimensions) to share the forward and side looking cruising experience, even when floating on the hook.

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True in some boats with helms in the salon, not true in others like mine....the forward seating is really not a big deal to many as even on flying bridge boats mny aren't looking forward a lot of the time anyhow.


Everyone has their likes and dislikes, but not everyone's opinions fit all vessels. Tradeoffs are inevitable in smaller sized vessels.

We have an enclosed fly bridge (Lexan Marguard) which we drive from 100% of the time. (No down helm) Visibility is excellent and it serves also as a place to "get away."

I am way late to this discussion so here are my REASONS, for purchasing a p/h boat.
Note that i had one, see the avatar, for 25 years and put thousands of hours on it, the boat was not a dock queen and my fenders were all severly scarred!


I subscribe to virtually every annunciated reason stated to have a p/h.
To prove the worth of the p/h take a trip overnight on a freinds boat that does NOT have a p/h and you will be convinced.


They are great as you are close to the head and the galley on most and this is a huge plus. Further you are near your spouse and guests and not isolated on a flying bridge.


My boat, a 45ft CHB, also had (I have gotten out of the boat biz.) flying bridge that got used occasionally when we were just cruising locally with a few guests other than that we were in the p/h. Warm, cool or what ever!
Yes I would have another.


CCC

Mountain sailor has great points.

My wife and I fell in love with raised pilothouse trawlers when we first spotted a Kady Krogen 42 and was given a tour.

We have a Bluewater that has a raised pilothouse. Underneath the pilothouse is a stateroom and head. Since the pilothouse is higher, forward visibility is excellent up to15 feet or so in front of the bow.

We don't travel at night anymore but get an early morning start at O dark 30 when it's still dark and glare from instruments is not a problem as long as we dim them.

The separate pilothouse can be void of the decorations that adorn most salons and equipped for navigation and driving only. It can be a separate area where either the captain and first mate can find refuge after spending too much "togetherness" on a long cruise and a good place to take in the scenery from a raised view at rest.

It's a great place to entertain guest with the large L shaped setee and table. Easy to step out of the PH door while docking and departing and feel perfectly protected by the Portugese Bridge.

It is the coolest place while anchored. With a large front faced opening window, PH doors and back PH windows open and the exterior Perferflex window covers. The PH is very comfortable during hot days.

We don't have a fly bridge so a 12' sailboat, two kayaks, crabbing and shrimping pots can all be stored on the PH roof leaving the boat deck for the fiberglass 13' tender.

The only negative to a raised pilothouse would be the additional height of the boat affecting the boats metacenter causing excessive roll. But if the boat is designed well with keel ballast, which most full displacement boats carry, then the roll would be mitigated.

Finally as someone else mentioned, spending long days driving the boat in the shade of the pilothouse will certainely reduce visits to a dermatologist and prevent your skin from looking like an alligators.

I am also late to the discussion.

We enjoy our PH and I spend most of my time in there while underway. To hide from the Sun, which I have had too much past exposure, and the weather in general. I also enjoy driving up top on nice days and when we have company aboard. Visibility to see marine life and birds when we are chasing fish in the Summer is also a bonus up while up top. Much better Vis.

Regarding cruising at night, now that we have a Trawler, it is one of my favorite things to do. I grew up working on fishing boats and we ran at night to the Islands or offshore a lot so it’s second nature to me. Love the solitude and peacefulness and the steady light drum of the engine and prop wash at 7 Knots.