Newer vs Older....

More Newbie questions. Thanks in advance for all your help and guidance. You folks are a really wonderful group.

My biggest concern looking at trawlers is the amount of maintenance required. I don't have much experience with things mechanical and while I'm happy to try, I don't want to get in over my head.

My first thought was to focus on newer boats with newer systems (say 5 years or younger) because I figured they were less likely to have problems. I know newer boats are more expensive but I was thinking of the premium price as prepaid maintenance.

A friend (thanks Mischief Managed) got me looking at Tollycrafts which are all older but I'm amazed at how well maintained so many of them are. That got me looking at boats which are on average 20 years old. Its friggen amazing how much more boat you can buy and still stay way within your budget.

That begs the question - Does a 20 year old, well maintained boat require a lot more maintenance than a 5 year old boat?

Although my my first thought was "of course it does," my experience with houses is quite different. My work moves me around a good bit so in 13 years of marriage we've lived in 6 homes - 2 of which we had custom built. The custom built ones always required more work than the older homes.

So what say you? Will I spend a lot more time in the engine room on an older boat?

BTW - we don't care that much about the interiors. I'm blessed with an admiral who doesn't care all that much about fancy. In fact with kids we'd almost prefer a 20 year old interior because when the kids ruin it (and they always ruin it) then it won't be as expensive.....

Thanks!

Justin
I think your observations re houses does have some applicability to boats.
To be clear up front I am a buy used type person. Three boats all used, 3 motorhomes all used.
I have been pleased with all 6 above purchases... all different ages for various reasons. Generally when starting out we opted for older to keep budget lower and minimize losses if we decided we didnt like it as well as we thought. We learned from 1st boat & MH that we liked the lifestyle but not our first unit. They served the purpose and didnt hate either so we traveled/ cruised but started looking for a better fit once we knew what we wanted.
Long intro but back to your maint question...
I didn't find I was faced with excessive maint on any of my used purchases and I several friends that purchased new boats & MHs that spent a lit of frustrating hours / days getting problems fixed. Wasnt necessarily big out of pocket $ but frustrating.
Bottom line I believe condition and history are the keys. If an owner provided TLC, was on top of repairs and even made improvements I would not anticipate a string of major breakdowns / repairs.
I do think it is realistic to budget more for older boats for maint just because you will need to replace things or systems that breakdown or wear out.
A newer boat that's been neglected could very well need more work & $ than an older well cared for boat.
I like to talk first hand w owners, see maint records and evaluate condition myself.
At my age (Sr Citizen+) I would have no interest in a 20 YO project boat needing major work to bring it back. I would consider a 20 YO "cream puff" that had an OCD owner that considered boat work a labor of love.
With the "right" choice I dont necessarily think it's time in the ER... things like hatches & rails may need rebedding, canvas replaced, etc.
If you are OK with doing some repairs AND have the patience to pick a good older boat I do believe you can spend less or the same and get "more" for your money.
To me it's all about your personal style and preferences. I dont think the buy new type person would ever be happy with an older anything... just not in their DNA.

Don't believe I've said it before, so Welcome!


All boats require maintenance and initial expenses to shape the boat into what you want it to be or what you think you need. Systems that aren't used regularly and properly maintained will break. I don't think anyone can answer your question in bold - at least not with confidence. There are too many variables and variations in the definition of 'well maintained.' New does not equal maintenance free, and (repeating) all boats require maintenance. Not doing the maintenance that all boats require adds items to a list called 'deferred maintenance.'


Best of luck in your search and finding the boat that's right for you.

If you can afford newer then buy newer. The possibility of old plumbing, electrical and engine woes are not exactly my idea of a good time.

From what you posted, it also seems that you're relatively new to boating (as I am). An older fixer upper may not be the best choice for a couple with a growing family. I would rather have a newer, turn key boat that you can enjoy now with minimal headaches.

As Bacchus said, the key is maintenance. A five year old boat that has been run hard and had little to no maintenance quite likely could turn into a nightmare for the new owner. On the other hand, we just bought a 20 year old boat that had been run at trawler speeds and had been maintained to the n-th degree. We spent far more on modernizing some of the furniture and redecorating than anything else.

I've bought several new boats. There is a difference in most areas. But, some new boats were built just just before doors shuttered or company changed hands. Some sad stories.

If you cite some specific vessels models, TF guys could help. Generally though, just wild guessing at this point.

Me, I'd go newer but personal finances always enter into it. A one owner 15 year old boat could be a gem. A three owner same boat maybe not. Good luck, be careful and good question.

Posters above covered the maintenance topic well.
If you are new to boating consider that age will also affect items such as insurance (req. surveys) and financing may be very hard and/or a higher rate.
Good luck with your search...

There is more that maintenance. How the hull is build - solid fiberglass or cored hull.
I would never buy a cored hull. Is the hull "full displacement or semi-displacement". The difference is in fuel consumption. Is a gas or diesel?. Gas have tendency to Blow-up. Twin or single engine - twin better. Look at a boat from the safety point of view.

Greetings,
Re: post #8:


"Gas have tendency to Blow-up." Not so. They CAN but no tendency to.



"... twin better". Not necessarily...

I lost my boat to 3 experienced boater "playing" with gas. They blow -up their boat and burn mine. Couple years ago, while looking for a boat, I was looking at gas boat. The owner was so happy to show me that engines will start and he forgot (or did not know) to turn the blowers on. I did not know that I can run that fast away. Gasoline boats are dangerus - ticking time bomb.

About the twin - easy to maneuver coming to a dock and if one "give up" still have another to got home. In strong current twin are better too, but never run on one engine to save a fuel - you will mess up the transmission. The cost of maintenance is higher, but you will have the power when need.

nodestination said:

I lost my boat to 3 experienced boater "playing" with gas. They blow -up their boat and burn mine. Couple years ago, while looking for a boat, I was looking at gas boat. The owner was so happy to show me that engines will start and he forgot (or did not know) to turn the blowers on. I did not know that I can run that fast away. Gasoline boats are dangerus - ticking time bomb.

Click to expand...

Yes of course ...all of those gas boats out there are tremendously dangerous - that is why the insurance rates are virtually the same as diesel.

Additionally twin engines are the only option - after all most all of those commercial boats around us don't know how to pilot their boats.

And not to be missed all cored boats are defective - please don't mention this to the thousands that are out there with no absolutely no issues.

nodestination - - I understand that the balsa cored decks have been an issue on the early Gulfstars.
As well as heavy gel coat blisters which rendered some hulls lacking suitable structure

Greetings,
Mr. s. You forgot. Everyone has the wrong anchor except me...

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. s. You forgot. Everyone has the wrong anchor except me...

Click to expand...

I did not think of the anchor actually (sorry) - but I did forget this one which is not accurate in many cases either….
"but never run on one engine to save a fuel - you will mess up the transmission."

I think it’s pretty well established that half of us are buy newer and half of us are buy older.

Wish I knew the true answer to this question but I don’t. I do know that 30 year old boats are real cheap. Most marine systems have about a 30 year life. If you can do the work it’s an easy decision. If you contract your work out then it’s not a good decision. So as you go newer were is the break even point? Wish I knew.

I think there are more than a few people who would consider the older non-electronic diesels desirable. Perhaps not as fuel efficient, but more easily repaired by an owner.

I think it’s almost 100% a case of the maintenance and investments the boat received over it’s life.

A broker once told me the best boat is one that has had several owners that applied their focused skills (most different) in such a way that electrical, mechanical, domestic, paint and finish, navigation equipment and ideally all else was addressed over time such that w each owner pumping many boat bucks, skills and judgement into the boat that it would be a far better boat than a new one. One may not even be able to afford such a boat but several owners can produce it. And in the above case you would be the recipient. Best buy indeed.

So re this post a used “considerably” boat is best. But you the buyer will need to find it. That may take some time.

Nomad Willy said:

I think it’s almost 100% a case of the maintenance and investments the boat received over it’s life.

A broker once told me the best boat is one that has had several owners that applied their focused skills (most different) in such a way that electrical, mechanical, domestic, paint and finish, navigation equipment and ideally all else was addressed over time such that w each owner pumping many boat bucks, skills and judgement into the boat that it would be a far better boat than a new one. One may not even be able to afford such a boat but several owners can produce it. And in the above case you would be the recipient. Best buy indeed.

So re this post a used “considerably” boat is best. But you the buyer will need to find it. That may take some time.

Click to expand...

^ This!

Welcome to the forum!

If you haven't yet read Boat Search 101, I would definitely recommend that you do so.

A lot of good advice so far, except for maybe one post .

Don't be in a rush to buy a boat, make sure that what you buy really fits your boating needs. Gas/diesel, cored hull/solid hull, single/twin, less than 7 knots/more than 7 knots, new/old/older, big/small, trawler/non-trawler are all acceptable possibilities, based on your budget and how you will use your boat. There is no ONE right boat.

Ask lots of questions as there are folks here with vastly different boating backgrounds who are always happy to help!

Jim

There's a lot of people out there that are enjoying the water in really old boats. I'm one of them. If I was going to choose between a really well maintained older boat and a new boat for a lot more money, I'd choose to have all that extra money in my pocket. But I can repair, rebuild or maintain anything on a boat.
The first thing I consider in looking at boats is the engines. Are they known for reliability, what do I need to carry in spares - if any, can I get rebuild kits, and are parts available where I'm going.
Don't fall in love with a boat before you buy it.

GraniteStater said:

That begs the question - Does a 20 year old, well maintained boat require a lot more maintenance than a 5 year old boat?

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A well maintained 20 year old boat will give you less problems over a neglected 5 year old boat.

There's not concrete answer to this but generally the 5 year old boat would be the way to go.

If you have alot of spare time and a willingness to learn a 20 year old boat(or older) can save you alot of money but if you are the type that will use the marina to do most work then it can actually cost more(refits/restorations can outrun the cost of a new boat).

Over 2 years ago, I purchase my 1973 boat for the build. 1inch thick solid fiberglass below water line and 3/4 above. 6month ago I repainted the bottom and had 1 dime size blister. If the hull is strong, the rest of the boat can be fix. No better way to learn about a boat as to work on it.

Thanks all for the very helpful information - it is very much appreciated.

To answer some of your questions/comments I'd say the following....

1. I'm not in any rush to buy anytime in the next 5 years. We will likely charter a good bit to see what we like. That said, its a heck of a lot of fun to look at boats and daydream.

2. Daydreaming and discussion with the boss has already lead us to some initial thoughts such as the fact that we don't really "need" a full blue water capable passagemaker. When I've daydreamed over the last 10 years it is about cruising the world in something like a Nordhavn (actually, until recently it was a sailboat!). The reality is that our most ambitious cruising is likely to be the eastern Caribbean. Most of our time will probably be on the ICW and in the Bahamas - maybe the loop if we get bored. I don't think she would enjoy an overnight passage. I want a boat that can handle a really bad day but I won't ever be cruising across the Pacific (at least not with my wife and if I try it without her the will take everything and I will be trying it in a rowboat!)

3. Although we've got a comfortable budget (more to follow) we don't want anything that is too yacht like. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I know we are thinking about a 50 ft boat but despite that we are pretty modest people. We don't want our kids and their friends thinking we have a yacht. In a perfect world we'd want some refitted fishing trawler that looks like a working boat on the outside, is plenty comfortable but not at all fancy on the inside but has a world class engine, generator, stabilizer, watermaker, nav system etc.

4. Budget for a boat cost is an interesting question but its not necessarily how I'm looking at it. I figure we will keep our first boat an estimated 5 years (then kids will be grown with jobs and less likely to spend extended time with us). The question in my mind is what the annual cost will likely be over that 5 years including the hit I take when I got to sell it. If we buy a beautifully fitted out boat and then my kids beat the crap out of the woodwork we are going to take a huge hit when we trade it in because people who buy fancy yachts like them to be fancy. If we buy an older boat with some nicks and dings in the woodwork the we won't get hit as hard we we go to resell it. In a perfect world I'd love to keep my all-in annual cost of ownership below $75,000.

5. What kind of boats do I like so far? I know they aren't readily available and many are steel (which is a whole different conversation) but I love the aesthetic and ethos of some of the dutch/european/NZ trawlers. The look very seaworthy and also have a nicely utilitarian look inside. Ideally I'd want something that is 5 to 10 years old to keep costs reasonable.

I love the Vryburg 58

Vryburg Yachting

The Watson 48

The Privateer 50

2009 Privateer Trawler 50 used boat for sale - boatersresources.com

Last night we started looking at everything else for sale and my wife really liked Tollycraft (its amazing how well maintained they ALL look), Ocean Alexander, Grand Alaskans, Grand banks etc. They might not have the working boat visual I like but they had great flybridges and "coffee decks" (I stole that from someone on here). If you look at the ones that are 15 to 20 years old they aren't insanely expensive. But if I'm spending $40k a year maintaining them I'm going to get myself into trouble quick.

Ok that's enough rambling for now. I appreciate all your input.

Thanks!

Nomad Willy said:

A broker once told me the best boat is one that has had several owners that applied their focused skills (most different) in such a way that electrical, mechanical, domestic, paint and finish, navigation equipment and ideally all else was addressed over time. [It would be a far better boat than a new one. One may not even be able to afford such a boat but several owners can produce it.

Click to expand...

I could not agree more as that has been my strategy & maintenance program for years. I never get all the money back that I have poured into boats but when I sell them I do get a little over high market prices & the buyer gets a great boat!

RT Firefly said:

Greetings,
Mr. s. You forgot. Everyone has the wrong anchor except me...

Click to expand...

I may have enough to keep covered.

On the surface it seems obvious that less maintenance is needes.for a new boat..... BUT.

Talk to any number of experienced boatyards and many will say there are just as many problems with new boats as old ones.

While new boat problems are likely covered by warranty, it doesn't diminish the frustration of not having a boat to enjoy while it is under repair.

No matter what boat you buy I believe it needs a shakedown period to familiar yourself with all of the systems and to understand what will or will not work the way it should new or used.

A good quality well maintained used boat may be a much better buy than a lower quality new boat in terms of cost and reliability.

My suggestion instead of a $3 million new search for a $1 million used that has been well cared for and maintained as verified a complete quality survey as well as someone like Steve D'Antonio.

You can find lots of newer equipment and upgrades on a well maintained used boat.

Good luck.

New or old matters less than the initial quality of the build and builder.

A price point boat will have more maint than an established builders product.

I have been onboard many 30-40 year old boats that only have problems with additions and modifications from a past owners work.

Although date most of the builders electrical, plumbing and comfort systems are still doing fine.

garychurch wrote;
“Talk to any number of experienced boatyards and many will say there are just as many problems with new boats as old ones.”

In the seventies I worked on production boats in the shop at Uniflite in Bellingham Wa US. One of the old hands told me that most boats suffered more use and abuse during construction than in the rest of their life. I’m sure he was exaggerating but workers put things in the wrong places and many mistakes were made. These workers wern’t as much boatbuilders but installers. Just backing up a fork lift can do some damage. Ect Ect.

The Navy boats were better. They were all the same.

But most pleasure boats were very custom builds. Almost everything in the boats was spect’d out by the buyers. No boat was the same. When I was there demand was up and boats were popping out the door. Boats were selling for more that people paid for them a year later. Must have been the “heyday” of PNW boatbuilding.
And I think Uniflite was one of the better builders so perhaps “I haven’t seen nut’in”

I quote

GregBrannon said:

Don't believe I've said it before, so Welcome!


All boats require maintenance and initial expenses to shape the boat into what you want it to be or what you think you need. Systems that aren't used regularly and properly maintained will break. I don't think anyone can answer your question in bold - at least not with confidence. There are too many variables and variations in the definition of 'well maintained.' New does not equal maintenance free, and (repeating) all boats require maintenance. Not doing the maintenance that all boats require adds items to a list called 'deferred maintenance.'


Best of luck in your search and finding the boat that's right for you.

Click to expand...

Find a boat that’s being used regularly or even being lived aboard. That means all systems are working and anything that needed fixing would be done because the boat was being used.
And a Boat just sits, things seem to break on their own.