North Pacific Trawler 39 getting rolling chocks

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JDCAVE

Guru
Joined
Apr 3, 2011
Messages
2,905
Location
Canada
Vessel Name
Phoenix Hunter
Vessel Make
Kadey Krogen 42 (1985)
This vessel is on the hard beside my vessel. It is owned by a former commercial fisherman is getting rolling chocks.

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I’ve watched this FRP guy install these before on commercial vessels. He will lay down a skin of FRP, then glue down pieces of foam, then complete layers of FRP over the foam.

Jim
 
It looks like special care may be necessary when using a travel lift.
 
It looks like special care may be necessary when using a travel lift.

it looks like they could hit pilings also
 
I don’t think the form reflects the final shape and size.
 
I saw similar chocks installed on a North Pacific (forget the length) a few years back; the owner felt that they did improve stability. They had been installed by Roy Brown of Independent Shiprights in Coombs.
Judging from how they looked (the boat was in the water) I would think that they would have significant forces acting on them while in slings.
 
There are many gillnetters in this marina that have similarly installed chocks. The yard is quite experienced in raising boats with chocks.
 
Rebel on his NP43 "Rogue" had them installed a couple years ago. If I recall, he reported no issues with the travel lift.
 
This vessel is on the hard beside my vessel. It is owned by a former commercial fisherman is getting rolling chocks.

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I’ve watched this FRP guy install these before on commercial vessels. He will lay down a skin of FRP, then glue down pieces of foam, then complete layers of FRP over the foam.

Jim

Could you take some measurements of the chocks when they get to the final shape? I have been thinking about them on my boat but no one around here has any experience doing them. A 39’ is close to my size at 41’ so the correct size may be close. Also can you ask what layup they are doing and document that?
 
Jim: I know you don’t want to hear this but hopefully you’ll be there long enough so you can post pictures. :hide:
 
Jim: I know you don’t want to hear this but hopefully you’ll be there long enough so you can post pictures. :hide:


Now then! You’re just trying to make this poor little office boy feel inadequate!

Jim
 
If I saw somebody install these things on a boat I’d suspect there’s something wrong w the boat design or the owner is afraid of common boat movement.
At the least I’d be observing that production boats don’t have these fins.
Or perhaps I’d take the person out on my boat that really does roll and maybe he’d think there was nothing wrong w his after experiencing mine.
And maybe a person feeling the need for rolling chocks should try out a wider boat and consider selling theirs and buying a more stable boat.
Lastly the chocks may not be very appealing to the eventual next buyer.
 
Hi Eric,

Not many boats have an appealingly curvaceous bottom and pert arse end like your boat.

I figure rolling chocks go onto sharp chined boats to stop the abrupt stop and start to each 'snap' roll.

Lots of boats have rolling chocks here.
 
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MurrayM,
Interesting .. must be a Canadian thing. Don’t remember any from Alaska. There probably have been some but I don’t recall them. Seen some bulbous bows though. I always wondered if the’d capsize on a big beam sea tripping on the chocks. Never heard of it happening though.

They could conceivably produce a boat that gets blown downwind in the bow as the chocked chine may be resistant to yawing. And many boats have that tendency anyway so adding to an already imbalanced and undesirable trait .......
 
Maybe when fitted they will be more vertical than horizontal.
A boat I inspected here, a Clipper40/PT41, had them fitted midships,and later a second set well aft was added. This one has them extending midships to transom. At that point, would they impede turning the boat? I get the anti roll idea placed midships, less sure about having them way aft. This is the second aft set, there could be good reason. What is it?
 
"... I’d be observing that production boats don’t have these fins..."
Production boat just often propose ....Naiad, Wesmar etc fins :)


"...theirs and buying a more stable boat..."
When you wrote "stable" is it for stability ?


Because sorry but you could have a boat with great stability how roll hard and one we poor stability you feel more comfortable...
For example if you compare the stability of a ferry slow motion not great stab and for example a "minéralier" feed with steel "minerai" great stab but hard motion (some was even damaged !)
 
Folks with a unique bottom simply need to mark the hull,or deck, Sling Here.
 
It would really helpful if some owners took measurements before and after to quantitatively measure how effective they are. There are all sorts of apps for smart phones that could be used.
 
We doing that

It would really helpful if some owners took measurements before and after to quantitatively measure how effective they are. There are all sorts of apps for smart phones that could be used.


On our long-cours.62, not to increase the stability but to make a quicker damping (sorry I don't know if it is the right word )
The length was around 4m (little more) and the high 280 mm, after fitted her we don't note a significant change in the speed/consumption. it was our principal question because the position and drag of this type of appendices could not be good at each speed (the "wave" generated by a hull change for each speed and the flux of the water on the hull also is not similar at 5 kts or at 10kts).
After that the feeling underway with wave on the beam seem better , but in the same time, we fit the ...mast. And we don't know the proportion on the change done :

-by the increase of inertia made by the mast; how many percent
-by the volume of the water "pushed" by the lateral extent; how many %
and also the reduction of the stability done by the weight of mast, boom, rigging.
From the beginning 2002 our rolling period change from around 2 sec to around 3sec.(2017) and it is more comfortable. note the lateral extent don't change the rolling period but by volume of water they must "push" when the boat want roll : delay the start and the damp quicker.


to get an idea of the counter force made by this thing ,look how much they will move for (for example) 5°, check the volume of water "pushed" at say to m from the axe you get one idea at zero speed, after you also have a change at speed....I am not really clear :banghead:

It is an empiric way to get an idea ...:hide:
 

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I believe the sling lift operators add blocking to avoid pressure on bilge keels. I'm assuming that would be the case with these as well.
 
I have observed that the greatest amount of negativity regarding 'rolling chocks' their appearance, practicality, and effectiveness appears to sprout forth from those that have little to no practical experience of the before and after results.
 
On our long-cours.62, not to increase the stability but to make a quicker damping (sorry I don't know if it is the right word )
I think it is the right word. Reducing,and perhaps preventing further rolling, from one force. So that a force causes one reduced or dampened roll, with no more rolling or less rolling, after that.
I`m still wondering about the affect of fins extended to the transom. Why won`t that affect the ability to swing or rotate the boat? The fins are to reduce the hull rolling on its long axis,but surely if fitted at the stern they affect rotational movement, like for example, turning the boat 180 degrees.
 
It would really helpful if some owners took measurements before and after to quantitatively measure how effective they are. There are all sorts of apps for smart phones that could be used.

Just got mine installed today. They arrived at about 07:45 and drove out at 17:00. They are robust enough that slings will not be even a slight consideration.

Prior to doing this, I attempted to quantitively measure roll and roll accelerations using an artificial horizon app on my iPhone. The app works very well and reliably, however the data was really a failure. It is difficult to find consistent conditions (I went looking for Washington State ferry wakes as a standard reference), that could be reliably duplicated post install, but it is nearly impossible. Second, even in some short periods of nasty rolling, the data show very modest angles though fairly quick accelerations. 10 deg each side will send stuff across counter tops. Contrast to my sailboat where 10 degrees is just starting to get a decent sailing breeze. This leads me to believe it is the roll accelerations and rates, rather than the angles, that are unpleasant. The sailboat roll rate and accelerations are much slower. I also attempted to rock the boat in the berth by various means, again this really yields disappointing figures when actually measured.

I did take detailed speed and consumption data which I will compare to post install.

I had intended to return the boat to the water immediately to get as fresh a comparison as possible, but plans have changed and it won't be back in for several weeks. I think the best way to get a comparison is to cruise side-by-side with a sistership and either measure or observe the result. I intend to try and orchestrate this in the short term.

I note that in the many threads on rolling chocks, there are skeptics who don't have them, and believers who do. There does not appear to be an alumni of people who have them and say they don't work. This could be the placebo effect of having spent good money and not wanting to admit error, but is seems to be pretty universal. I made my own decision after talking at some depth with the owner of a sistership who had several years of experience and many miles on the boat both before and after the install. "No brainer" he called it.

Second note is that "rolling chocks" covers a lot of ground, from little dainty short things on big boats, to big wings on little boats. These two cannot have the same effect, so one must be specific in descriptions. Mine were installed by Roy Brown who has done quite a lot of them (300+ he said), has changed them through the years based on experience, and they are relatively large.
 
What boat did you have the chocks installed on?
 
American Tug 34. Took pictures all day long, though much of the time the boat was tarped to control the dust. It looked just like the other pictures you've seen. They pre-mold the shapes in the shop, then score and trim to the chine shape and tab them on after grinding the gel coat back. Two people, working quickly and efficiently, like they'd done a bunch before. They are about 18' long, 9" or so out bisecting the chine angle.

Another note on handling: I will try to quantify this as well, but my expectation is there won't be much effect on this boat. These stick out about 8-9", there is a keel that is sticking down maybe 20" from the fairbody. If there is any directional effect or tripping I'd expect the keel to be providing the bulk of this. But I will find out.
 
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A quibble: I thought they were called bilge keels. Is there a difference?
 
A quibble: I thought they were called bilge keels. Is there a difference?


I believe rolling chocks are further up the hull, whereas bilge keels (aka “bat wings”) are attached to the keel.

One advantage I have heard with rolling chocks as compared with their stabilization devices is that they also dampen pitching motion as well as roll.
 
I believe rolling chocks are further up the hull, whereas bilge keels (aka “bat wings”) are attached to the keel. .....
If so, both pics above show rolling chocks. But "bilge keels" sounds like "keels attached to the bilge".
Anyone have a pic of "bilge keels'? My only thought is the so called "winged keel" of Australia 2, revealed during the Americas Cup.
 
Apparently, they refer to the same thing:

https://seagrant.uaf.edu/bookstore/boatkeeper/bilge-keels.pdf

"Bilge keels, or “rolling chocks,” the long, rigid fins that protrude from the chines of most ships and larger fishing vessels, are increasingly being designed or retrofitted onto smaller vessels. Effectiveness varies,depending on design and hull type; but a growing number of owners are specifying them on the understanding that they can make a significant improvement in a boat’s comfort level."


The article has a pretty thorough discussion of the subject.
 
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The debate continues. I've read numerous technical papers on roll reduction and the general consensus is less than 10% roll reduction. However the shipyard's naval architect whom I asked swore a solid 30% effectiveness.

I think it depends on how they are built. Here are two examples. The first is from a boatyard in India I visited and the chock design appears to me to be just about worthless. I doubt they would even yield a few percent.

The second photo is a different shipbuilder, chocks being fitted to a new build, and even just eye-balling it you can tell these will be much more effective.
 

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I still contend that on hard chined vessels, the main goal in rolling chocks (thinking about the type in photo #2 above, as that's what are used in this area) is to slow down the abrupt stop & start (deceleration - acceleration) of the rolls.

Can't see how that's hard to understand...
 
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