Cummins 210's Not Started In Ten Years...

Looked at a trawler today and it had twin 210's that had not been run in ten years. I know this is an issue, but how major of an issue? Will the rings be rusted to the cylinders? Injector pump? Bearings? Maybe this is one of those where you run and don't look back.....

Not good!
Guess a fair amount will depend on how it was prepped for the layup. Good news is that Cummins still makes the 220 (listed as rebuilt 1 used part). I would find out the cost of 2 new engines and subtract them from the price. If this is an "as is where is" deal, I would get a good mechanic familiar with these engines to prepare the engines before they are attempted to be started.

Ted

O C Diver said:

Not good!
Guess a fair amount will depend on how it was prepped for the layup. Good news is that Cummins still makes the 220 (listed as rebuilt 1 used part). I would find out the cost of 2 new engines and subtract them from the price. If this is an "as is where is" deal, I would get a good mechanic familiar with these engines to prepare the engines before they are attempted to be started.

Ted

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And how the boat was stored, on the hard in a yard or sitting in the water. Mine hadn't been started in a very long time, at least several years, but was professionally put up for long term storage. It has been faultless for the past 3000 plus hours, purchased with only 46 hours on it in 14 years of ownership.

AKDoug said:

And how the boat was stored, on the hard in a yard or sitting in the water. Mine hadn't been started in a very long time, at least several years, but was professionally put up for long term storage. It has been faultless for the past 3000 plus hours, purchased with only 46 hours on it in 14 years of ownership.

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It's been on the hard for those years. I'll see if the broker has info on how it was stored. It's an interesting boat that's maybe worth 20K as she sits. This is it...

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/marine-trading-tradewinds-1646664/?refSource=standard listing

I am not sure that the situation is all that dire. Diesel is a good lubricant/corrosion preventative and I have heard of many pieces of construction equipment that sat for this length of time and started up reasonably easily.

But sitting near saltwater is a problem and salt air entering through the exhaust will have a path to a cylinder or two.

So bar the engine over to find out. If it won't turn over with reasonable force on a 1//2" breakover bar then walk away unless you are prepared for lots of work or an engine replacement.

Sometimes you can break them loose with lots of soaking with WD40, Marvel Mystery Oil, etc. and patience. I had a friend whose boat sat for 18 months after IRMA on its side and when finally righted the engine was stuck due to rain water seeping in. Patience and a week of soaking finally broke it loose and it now runs fine.

If it does bar over then you are almost there. Change the oil, filters, maybe polish the fuel, change the filter, change the impeller. Check the rack on the injector pump. Sometimes they will stick and need to be rebuilt otherwise it can run away.

Then pull the stop lever(edit since it is an energize to start, disconnect the fuel solenoid wire), crank for ten seconds until you see oil pressure and close the stop lever (reconnect the wire) and go for it. If it doesn't start in another 5 seconds stop cranking and close the raw water intake so you don't flood the engine and investigate.

Fuel, air and compression starts diesels. All have to be present to run so check them all out.

David

Ditto above, change all impellers including genny. Same with water system, pump out old, treat new, and repeat until water is safe. Have all air conditioning systems serviced. All said, do the engines first.

Barring it over by hand will be an easy go no go test, as Dave describes.

The yachtworld description does not say “as is were is”. Did the broker say there would be no sea trial? If the engines start up and passes sea trial i’m A lot less worried about it. If the broker says “as is, were is” I wouldn’t touch it unless you are highly knowledgeable about Cummins diesels.

I've started a lot of mothballed ship engines. Some sitting 20 years. If they turn over, the engine is usually ok. Diesels don't stick rings as often as gas engines. You need to flush the fuel in the engines and add a good conditioner to kill organisms in the tanks and fuel lines. Although if the fuel is 10 years old, it's probably better than the crap we get now.

The big hassle is usually the cylinder walls rust if unpreserved.

As the engine is started the rust is scraped off leaving pits in the cylinder walls.

If it seems to run OK the tiny bit of extra oil stuck in the rust pits should not be a bother.

Oil is cheap!!! engine rebuilds are not.

tiltrider1 said:

The yachtworld description does not say “as is were is”. Did the broker say there would be no sea trial? If the engines start up and passes sea trial i’m A lot less worried about it. If the broker says “as is, were is” I wouldn’t touch it unless you are highly knowledgeable about Cummins diesels.

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I don’t view “as is where is” as a magical phrase. Does omission of this phrase in a YW ad give the buyer or seller any additional rights? I don’t think so.

bar it over then shut off fuel and spin with the starter until oil pressure is well up. Don't overheat the starter pause every 20 seconds for cool down.

Mikala said:

I don’t view “as is where is” as a magical phrase. Does omission of this phrase in a YW ad give the buyer or seller any additional rights? I don’t think so.

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I am just trying to ascertain why restarting these engines would be the buyers responsibility. As the ad sits, any one looking to buy this boat is going to expect a survey and seatrial.

Curious if the pictures are current or prom pictures. She seems awfully clean for a boat that has sat for 10 years. Would have expected a mildew / mold nightmare.

Ted

There is no firm "rule" about whether buyer or seller puts the effort in to return the engines to an operable status. It depends on what the parties agree to. In some cases like an estate sale, the selling party wants absolutely nothing to do with engine work. They may allow the buyer or a buyer's mechanic to work on them, or maybe not.

If engines can not be proven operable, the offer price should be lowered to handle the worst case engine condition, and that would be seized up from internal corrosion.

The seller has a strong financial incentive to demonstrate the engines are operable!! But nothing would force them to do so.

If I was hired to check these out, first thing is to check fluids and then bar over a few turns. Check for stuck turbos. Prime with fresh fuel. Consider priming oil system with a manual squeeze bulb, don't try it with the starter, the b-pump probably won't prime at all with starter rpm. Get a hot battery. Prime sea pump impeller with water and Dawn to lube it. Try a start. If it starts, shut it down and get a garden hose to feed sea pump.

tiltrider1 said:

I am just trying to ascertain why restarting these engines would be the buyers responsibility. As the ad sits, any one looking to buy this boat is going to expect a survey and seatrial.

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I agree. My point is that I will in no way be limited or intimidated by garbage language in an ad. Any true as-is where-is situation should have complete disclosure regarding the condition of everything. Even then, I would walk. The broker that writes the ad is blindly assuming what the seller told him to be true. And how can the seller even provide accurate info when nothing has been operated for 10 years?

Everything is negotiable. It would be foolish to not survey/seatrial the boat.

O C Diver said:

Curious if the pictures are current or prom pictures. She seems awfully clean for a boat that has sat for 10 years. Would have expected a mildew / mold nightmare.

Ted

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Sitting in a yard on the hard removes a lot of the moisture issues that being in the water create. Wiring and connections tend to not be corroded, much less tendency to form mildew, no crap growing on the hull or electrolysis to running gear and zincs.

Stored on the hard and under cover would be the best possible scenario. I agree with you, it looks very clean!

AKDoug said:

Sitting in a yard on the hard removes a lot of the moisture issues that being in the water create. Wiring and connections tend to not be corroded, much less tendency to form mildew, no crap growing on the hull or electrolysis to running gear and zincs.

Stored on the hard and under cover would be the best possible scenario. I agree with you, it looks very clean!

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It's up the road from me in Galesville Maryland. There is a ton of heat and humidity here during the summer. A boat closed up for 10 years in this environment will definitely have mold and mildew problems.

Ted

We recovered an engine that had not been used for 6+ years and Dad squirted brake fluid in each cylinder through the injector hole, and used a big pull handle and socket on the crankshaft to turn it over backwards, without the injectors installed. Once it turned freely, we reinstalled the injectors and primed the Bosch injector pump, bled the injectors and it cranked up. It smoked as it burned off the brake fluid but ran for years after that.
Dad said the brake fluid was a better oil and would help cut any cylinder rust (bloom he called it).

Sidclark said:

It's been on the hard for those years. I'll see if the broker has info on how it was stored. It's an interesting boat that's maybe worth 20K as she sits. This is it...

https://www.yachtworld.com/boats/1987/marine-trading-tradewinds-1646664/?refSource=standard listing

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I used a Diesel engine surveyor who is close to the boats location, I would suggest you have him look them over.

Used diesel engines

Bought a wrecked truck years ago for it's diesel engine. Low miles, had been setting for a year or so. Turned over and started with no problems. Ran great for about 400 miles then threw a rod. The engine had gotten water in one of the cylinders and had rusted a groove in the cylinder liner where the top rings of the piston had set. It finally seized the piston in that cylinder. Expensive rebuild.

This is one of those boats you just go back and forth with pro's and con's. On one hand even though the boat has been stored ten years with no action, it has been shrink wrapped. Inside the boat and the decks look fine. There's no excessive mold or mildew and she smells sweet. Only minimal leak damage around the windows and doors. But she could leak like a sieve once re-exposed to the weather. The rear deck has a few soft spots but the forward deck feels pretty good. I didn't get a chance to do any tapping.

And then you consider every other thing on the boat the moves and rotates and hasn't in ten years. And then you think, well I can probably pick her up for 25K, this is AFTER the owners have gotten the engines started, and get to work. Thing is, she's in Maryland, I'm in Myrtle Beach and she's gotta make it here to even get started on what she needs. It's a real crap shoot we got here. The rewards can be great or it can all end up an Intracoastal nightmare.

The last boat we owned and lived aboard for six years was bought in this fashion and we made out really well. Question is...will lighting strike twice??
mmmmm

If the seller can start the engines and they run well, that boat is easily worth $25K.

Clean up the fuel, put new filters in and you can get that boat to Myrtle Beach and start the refit process.


The survey should identify any frozen equipment. Likely candidates are pumps, macerator, fridge, stove, etc. All of which should result in a further price reduction from the seller. Critical items can easily be replaced before you move it to Myrtle Beach.


David

djmarchand said:

If the seller can start the engines and they run well, that boat is easily worth $25K.

Clean up the fuel, put new filters in and you can get that boat to Myrtle Beach and start the refit process.
David

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I would add belts and hoses to the above and a cooling system flush both coolant and raw water and of course new impellers.

If hydraulic steering, all seals are suspect.