Advice on Choosing a Boat

BlueSky: See if you can negotiate the price down as you are concerned about the hours. We have a 1987 KK42 with 7,330 hours on the engine and we should get 12-15,000 before we need to do a major. If you make an offer, it should state that the deal will go through with a satisfactory survey which would should include a good mechanical/hull survey and sea trial. If anything doesnt pass your muster, you walk away and you are only out the cost of the survey. Get a good diesel mechanic who is familiar with that engine to do the mechanical end in addtion to the marine surveyor. The engine is probably a Ford Lehman SP 135 which was pretty much standard for the years you are looking at.

Before we bought Hobo I flew to FL from the PNW to look at a KK42. We walked away from it. At the end of the day we spent ~$1,500 but it was worth it. When we looked at the next KK42, which we bought, we had a much better idea on what to look for and made up the money in negotiating the sale. Remember you are buying a 25 year old boat. Every boat that age has some issues.

Since we have owned Hobo, we have traveled over 12,500 miles and for the money, we havent been on another boat that we would trade her for.

Good luck. Keep us posted on what you decide.

What was it about the KK42 that makes it the perfect boat for you and your wife? What did she think when you were visiting the two boats? Which of the two boats really spoke to you and more importantly your wife??

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We've looked through a lot of boats in the last couple years and narrowed down our likes & dislikes.

My wife strongly prefers boats with a covered back porch and protected sidedecks*that are low to the water, they make her feel safe. She prefers boats that sit low*to the water, she doesn't like the motion*when she's on a flybridge or anywhere that is raised. Also, she likes the layout in the galley.

For me, I want a single engine. I've been maintaining twins for years in a space I*don't fit into. No more, I want*room to work*and simplicity.*

Two cabins are a must for us. Kids and grandkids are always around and they need their own space.

We both like the pilothouse ... very comfortable underway. We both think it's a visually beautiful boat, you can't look away when you see one.

And finally, it's the one she's agreed to let me*buy.

It sounds to me Richard you both know what you want. Asking for advice sometimes can give you confusing directions because everyone that has a nose has an opinion and like noses some are crooked.

*
Remember what you need may be just around the corner but what you want may take a bit.

Elwin*


-- Edited by Ocean Breeze NL on Sunday 19th of February 2012 09:18:21 AM

BlueSky wrote:
And finally, it's the one she's agreed to let me*buy.

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*And there is the answer. *

*

If the engine doesn't smoke after warming up, and isn't a corrosion/rust nightmare(Feel along the under edges of the oilpan checking the boltheads)and runs at good temps when pushed over normal cruising speeds, *I wouldn't let the hours scare me, in fact I'd use them as a bargaining chip.

It was a dead give-away when we stepped aboard a boat that was used vs. a dock decoration when you opened the door and the "trawler" odor wafts over you. *Unless the boat looked spectacular that pretty much made our minds up that if the owner didn't care enough to take care of things like that you could count on the FACT that they didn't do other much more consequential maintenance/repairs. *I really liked it when owners would meet us and were all too happy to go rooting around the boat showing off things they'd replaced or modified over their time with the boat.

It sounds to me Richard you both know what you want. Asking for advice sometimes can give you confusing directions because everyone that has a nose has an opinion and like noses some are crooked.

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This has all been very helpful and I appreciate all the feedback I've received.

Mainly it affirms that I'm doing the right things. I think just being a little more patient and letting things develop is the prevailing theme. Other than being anxious to get on with it, I have no reason to be in a hurry. And I've*found that if I wait long enough, the correct decision will usually present itself.

Thanks for all the help guys!

twiisted71 wrote:BlueSky wrote:
And finally, it's the one she's agreed to let me*buy.

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*And there is the answer. *

*

If the engine doesn't smoke after warming up, and isn't a corrosion/rust nightmare(Feel along the under edges of the oilpan checking the boltheads)and runs at good temps when pushed over normal cruising speeds, *I wouldn't let the hours scare me, in fact I'd use them as a bargaining chip.

It was a dead give-away when we stepped aboard a boat that was used vs. a dock decoration when you opened the door and the "trawler" odor wafts over you. *Unless the boat looked spectacular that pretty much made our minds up that if the owner didn't care enough to take care of things like that you could count on the FACT that they didn't do other much more consequential maintenance/repairs. *I really liked it when owners would meet us and were all too happy to go rooting around the boat showing off things they'd replaced or modified over their time with the boat.

*Just cause an owner shows you "things" they did...unless you get into the destructive mode...you reall never know.*On my boat... the "y" valves on the head systems looked normal till you tried to switch them...trashed.* The sanitation hoses looked good till you grabbed them...broke off in my hands.* The bottom looked good till I ground off the gel coat and found 3-6 layers of laminate dry in some areas and could be pulled off by hand...I could go on for over and hour.

Things that REALLY cost...are sometimes hidden and you won't find out till you rip into them.* My PO showed off a nice boat that he used often...so often he did put a new engine in her.* That's what I bough....t a 18 month old engine, 400 gal new diesel and a bottom that still floated.* The surveyor missed probably 50 percent of the big things..in his defense**I did tell him the price was right for what I wanted...but still he could have warned me over the phone about some of the stuff if he even "caught" it.*

*The PO was so proud of so much..the boat did make it flawlessly from Ft Lauderdale to NJ.* OK so we struggled with the heads...not sure what was wrong at the time...but I had no time between purchase and return to home.* Most people wouldn't have bought the boat because the thought of redoing the bottom, decks, windows, interior wood, no electronics would scare to many away.* I knew I could fix any of that so all I needed was a good running engine (had it not been new I would have challenged him another 10 grand)...and a bottom that with some work would keep floating another 20 years.

So boats that had some but all those issues addressed were at least $50,000 more so I'll save $25,000 or so and get to do the rest my way.

But don't for one minute think POs or surveyors are gonna catch big stuff...they may....they may not..it's up to you to see if you beat the odds.* Either way...you have to be satisfied at the end...that's the only thing that matters.


-- Edited by psneeld on Sunday 19th of February 2012 10:56:19 AM

BlueSky wrote:
We both like the pilothouse ... very comfortable underway. We both think it's a visually beautiful boat, you can't look away when you see one.

And finally, it's the one she's agreed to let me*buy.

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*You are spot on!!* Having been there and done it, *If the wife doesn't like the boat or even boating in general it becomes an impossible situation.*** It not like owning a 20 foot go fast boat.* Owning a big boat takes your time,*commitment and needs to be the pasion*for both of you.* If not, then you each follow your own dreams, drift apart and end up going your separate ways.

Larry B

psneeld wrote:

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But don't for one minute think POs or surveyors are gonna catch big stuff...they may....they may not..it's up to you to see if you beat the odds.* Either way...you have to be satisfied at the end...that's the only thing that matters.*

________________________________________________

*

Exactly and like you I know enough about boats that I'm not going to hire a surveyor to determine what a boat is worth to me. *But it was nice knowing the age/maintenance of some systems, other than a broker saying "well she had a bottom job XX/XX/XXXX and the engine has XXXX hrs. *Great when were the manifolds changed? *Was the bottom job just a re-roll?

I bought my boat with a known non-working (split) head, leaking freshwater system, NO electronics, NO windlass, Iffy A/C (that crapped out the day I pulled away from the dock!) *Like you I could go on and on and knew that buying a boat this old I would run into owner "fixes" that you have to figure out what the did and then why. *Sometimes you just rip it out and start over.

I ground off the gel coat and found 3-6 layers of laminate dry in some areas and could be pulled off by hand

Now there is a Mfg to avoid forever!!!!

FF wrote:
I ground off the gel coat and found 3-6 layers of laminate dry in some areas and could be pulled off by hand

Now there is a Mfg to avoid forever!!!!

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*

Not sure if it was manufacturer or just hydrolysis or even a bad repair based on its limited area and fairly sqare shape..like she was laying on a coral head/rock repair.

Like boat owners, there are good, bad and indifferent surveyors. *I've been fortunate and used very good ones that know much more than I do ( not too hard to do) and have many years of experience. Ask your insurer or bank if they will do business on a boat*for which*you don't have a reputable surveyor's report. This is a very different issue than "I know what a boat is worth to me."

*

sunchaser wrote:
Like boat owners, there are good, bad and indifferent surveyors. *I've been fortunate and used very good ones that know much more than I do ( not too hard to do) and have many years of experience. Ask your insurer or bank if they will do business on a boat*for which*you don't have a reputable surveyor's report. This is a very different issue than "I know what a boat is worth to me."

*

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*Sure you need a surveyors report..that's a joke in my opinion...I can show the insurance company all the repairs I did to make the boat "better and safer" right after the first survey*and yet they will turn around and require me to get another survey for insurance reasons in another 5 year or so because the age of the boat....like the surveyors report is REALLY going to save them money in the long run.* Sure it might be the best average guess on a boats condition..but there are certainly better opinions out there without a surveyors signature ( to be fair they only have a few hours and no destructive testing).

The discussion isn't whether surveyors are firmly embedded into the boating system...it's a question of how much their imput is worth for ANY decision making throughout the process.

Sure they catch things that the average owner isn't or might not...heck they may see things that I may not...but lets face it...without destructive testing, testing no one could afford or just plain taking things apart which they normally don't do...you only find out what REALLY right or wrong with the boat long after the deal is done, the surveyor's report is in and you are sitting in your slip wondering whether you should have done something different or are dinking what you like, sitting back and enjoying the sunset.

psneeld wrote:
The discussion isn't whether surveyors are firmly embedded into the boating system...it's a question of how much their imput is worth for ANY decision making throughout the process.

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*I think the value of a surveyor is dependent on both the surveyor and the potential owner.

A*knowledgable surveyor that deals with a particular model of boat frequently can be invaluable.

Even the sharpest owner only has direct exposure to one or two boats of a particular model.*An owner only knows the issues that they have found with the boats he's worked on or heard about through the internet or social contacts.

A surveyor on the other hand surveys boats every day or so. An experienced surveyor might have inspected dozens of a particular model. His knowledge base will reflect the sum total of all of those boats.

Like surveyors, owners knowledge and aptitude will vary. I for example work on electrical, electronic and power generation systems for a living, and have done so over a very long career. This skills*I have developed in life are more applicable to boating than the skills someone would develop as a manager, or doctor.

If I had spent my career in a different field, I would not hesitate to enlist the services of a surveyor in a pre offer scenario. I think it would be good money spent.

Add to that... Some geographical areas have limited surveyor options. Like here in the New Bern area of NC, we really only have a few good surveyors. Maybe just one. He has surveyed many of the boats around here multiple times. As a point of reference, he did the survey for the previous owner of Skinny Dippin' and was able to note many of the improvements that were made. It was comforting to know the boat's condition had actually improved during the previous owner's tenure. Only HE (well... and the broker too) have that unique perspective.

That is why I mentioned that possibly tracking down the previous owner's surveyor could give you more info BEFORE jumping in feet first.

When choosing a surveyor you have to ask for reverences

I am a marine surveyor. I have the license to prove it. licensed by the state of Alaska.

How did I become a Marine surveyor you ask.

I sent the state a check for $75.00. My license is good* for insurance and banks.

I do my own survey for insurance. At $10.00 a foot. *$75.00 sure beats the heck out of $350.00.

I think I know my boat better than any surveyor*I could hire.

Point being. Just because someone hangs out a shingle doesn't make them a qualified Surveyor.

P.S. I don't use my license for anybody other than myself.

SD

Superdiver said it best above. T-I-M-E is what is needed. Wife and I have been spending as much time as possible going out on(not looking at) friends and charter vessels. We are learning tons about our likes and especially my wife's dislikes.

As for boats without issues, there are none. Negotiate well and mitigate as much as possible during the negotiation. Have no fear of walking away from the table without a boat, I have.

Good luck.

KSanders is pretty well correct IMHO. Accountants, doctors lawyers are not normally gear*heads, AYBC tutored or FRP geeks. They need help from a good surveyor. Once your potential new vessel gets into the +$500K area, to not use expert help for hull, electrics, engines and plumbing*to insure and protect your substantial investment is a mental and financial mistake.

Sorry Dude,* because you lack the correct surveyor bona fides,*I'd use your well honed skills elsewhere in evaluating a new vessel, like does it need a*cooling system fix up or head job.

sunchaser wrote:
Sorry Dude,* because you lack the correct surveyor bona fides,*I'd use your well honed skills elsewhere in evaluating a new vessel, like does it need a*cooling system fix up or head job.

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*My point exactly.

Yesterday I couldn't even spell Morine Sirveyor now I are one.

As far as the boni fides. I looked into SAMS. Society Of Accredited Marine Surveyors.

It seems all that is required is to submit 2 surveys you have performed and pay a fee..

Ask for refrences. Not all surveyors are bad. Just the bad ones.

SD

superdiver wrote:
i can honestly say, there is NO BOAT OUT THERE that will not need to be messed with.

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And as long as you know and are willing to deal with what needs to be done, as best as you and your surveyor can ascertain, that to me is part of the fun and joy in boat ownership. I'd be bored if there were not things that I could mess with. Even a "perfect" boat, if there is such a thing, can be "improved". Except maybe Seahorse II, and maybe that's why Walt has lost his mojo. There is nothing left to do on her.

dwhatty wrote:Even a "perfect" boat, if there is such a thing, can be "improved". Except maybe Seahorse II, and maybe that's why Walt has lost his mojo. There is nothing left to do on her.

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******** Don't I wish!* I would like to change out my refrigerator, add AIS, maybe another VHF, Maybe davits on the stern for a dinghy, etc. There is always something you need to make it safer in San Diego Bay. :bored:

dwhatty wrote:superdiver wrote:
i can honestly say, there is NO BOAT OUT THERE that will not need to be messed with.

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And as long as you know and are willing to deal with what needs to be done, as best as you and your surveyor can ascertain, that to me is part of the fun and joy in boat ownership. I'd be bored if there were not things that I could mess with. Even a "perfect" boat, if there is such a thing, can be "improved". Except maybe Seahorse II, and maybe that's why Walt has lost his mojo. There is nothing left to do on her.

* * * ** Keep it up, David. If I decide to sell, it will help with the asking price.

SeaHorse II wrote:dwhatty wrote:superdiver wrote:
i can honestly say, there is NO BOAT OUT THERE that will not need to be messed with.

Click to expand...

And as long as you know and are willing to deal with what needs to be done, as best as you and your surveyor can ascertain, that to me is part of the fun and joy in boat ownership. I'd be bored if there were not things that I could mess with. Even a "perfect" boat, if there is such a thing, can be "improved". Except maybe Seahorse II, and maybe that's why Walt has lost his mojo. There is nothing left to do on her.

* * * ** Keep it up, David. If I decide to sell, it will help with the asking price.

Of course there is that water stain under the port aft window and the funky trim, or lack thereof, under the reefer. And the window trim bits as you look in from the outside. That ought to knock off a few grand. Or did you fix all that?


-- Edited by dwhatty on Monday 20th of February 2012 06:49:02 PM

Oh, and I forgot the other reefer problem that Flywright identified. But that is easily remedied.

dwhatty wrote:

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Of course there is that water stain under the port aft window and the funky trim, or lack thereof, under the reefer. And the window trim bits as you look in from the outside. That ought to knock off a few grand. Or did you fix all that?




*Walt, with friends like that, you won't need any enemies.

dwhatty wrote:Of course there is that water stain under the port aft window ....Fixed & all salon windows recalked ....and the funky trim, or lack thereof, under the reefer....will be addressed with new reefer.. And the window trim bits as you look in from the outside. I completely forgot about those! I think I'll just 5200 the trim bits in place.

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* * * ** Now who's sounding anal? I'll just bet that your boat is in better shape than mine. Of course we have to wait until the "spring thaw" to even have a look at her.* :nod:

Walt
I can see little hope for you if all you have in your fridge is water! Unless there is a nearby locker with an ample supply of Scotch to mix with it.

koliver wrote:
Walt
I can see little hope for you if all you have in your fridge is water! Unless there is a nearby locker with an ample supply of Scotch to mix with it.

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******** Seek & ye shall find