Not worthy of a couple of honks?

markpierce wrote:
Marin, you don't seem to read my posts*very carefully.* For instance, I had said I presume everyone else on the water ignores the rules (unless otherwise demonstrated).

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Don't know what you think the "rules" are.* If you think they are like traffic rules, then yes, everybody ignores them because there aren't any.

But it terms of the Colregs I think you'll find that the commercial folks, at least, are pretty mindful of what they spell out and they tend to adhere to them since their operating licenses and whatnot depend on that.

But since the Colregs bear little resemblence to what many or most recreational boaters think the "rules" should be, it can certainly seem to*the toy boat crowd that the big boys aren't playing fair.

As others have pointed out, we just don't use horns here in the PNW -- probably because we*routinely share the*water*ways with (literally!) tons of*ferries and other commercial traffic, including oil tankers and container ships. Next time, try*connecting on VHF Ch 13. Chances are you'll get a faster reply than calling on*Ch 16. *

Do you folks in the PNW have high-speed ferries? High speed meaning 34kts+. Off subject, just curious.

Since the 9 -11 attacks and the US Cole incident, transportation rules and regulations*are taken much more seriously.* DOJ and Homeland Security, which includes the Coast Guard, provide security for all*forms of transportation.* We used to pass right under the stern of the anchored tankers near Anacortes.* But do that now days and you may have a CG inflatable chasing you down.**

About a*week ago a mentally challenged individual mumbled something about having a bomb and he was on a State Ferry at the terminal.**The boat was locked down, city police, State Patrol, bomb dogs, Coast Guard and FBI were at the terminal in minutes.* Two hours later the boat and terminal were*finally cleared for traffic.

For those of us recreational boaters who enjoy cruising*the "Salish Sea" (Juan De Fuca Straits, Puget Sound, and north) keep in mind that most of our boats*are included in the under the 20 meter exception*for operating in narrow channels (Rule 9)*and Vessel Traffic Systems (Rule 10).*

"A vessel of less than 20 meters in length*or a*sailing vessel*shall not impede the safe passage of a power-driven vessel following a traffic lane."*and*same for*narrow channels.*

That covers most of our cruising area as*the main channels between Tacoma, Seattle, Everett, Bellingham, Victoria and Vancouver, BC*all contain VTS lanes and are radar and radio monitored by the Coast Guard.*

Most of our State ferries run in the 17 - 20 knot range. They used to operate a couple of small*foot ferries between Bremerton and Seattle that might have run a little faster, but I think they sold them.* Several private cruise ferries offer service on high speed hydrafoils, between Seattle*and Victoria.*

Larry B

*


-- Edited by Edelweiss on Monday 20th of February 2012 11:15:04 PM

Marin wrote:
But since the Colregs bear little resemblence to what many or most recreational boaters think the "rules" should be, it can certainly seem to*the toy boat crowd that the big boys aren't playing fair.

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*I had signalled (by horn) to*the ferry to communicate that I'd be turning to port, toward the center of the channel/strait,*where I had expected him to go instead of heading directly toward me on the extreme side of the channel.* If nothing else, the ferry maintained its course, and we passed starboard to starboard.* (These ferries draw not much more than a foot more than the Coot, and are several times faster although they maintain a 10-knot-or-so speed until entering San Pablo Bay.)


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 12:54:31 AM

Giggitoni wrote:
Do you folks in the PNW have high-speed ferries? High speed meaning 34kts+. Off subject, just curious.

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Not really.* There is the Victoria Clipper, a big water-jet powered catamaran (I don't know if there's only one*Clipper*or more than one) that runs between Seattle and Victoria and has some other runs it makes from time to time.* I don't know how fast it goes but seeing it underway*from a distance it goes at a pretty good clip.

In the San Juans there are several small passenger ferries (50-60 feet maybe) that run on a semi-plane on a regular route.* The Washington State ferries are a lot faster than they appear to be.* Larry's estimate of 20 knots is probably pretty good.

And Vancouver, BC has several so-called "fast ferries" that carry passengers only back and forth from downtown Vancouver to West Vancouver and North Vancouver and other communities on the other side of the harbor.* But I don't know how fast they go.

The big BC ferries are larger than the Washington State ferries and seem to go considerably faster when they are in open water, but I don't know how fast is "faster."

First photo is the Victoria Clipper (or one of them).* Second photo is a new BC ferry shown leaving Europe on its delivery voyage to BC.* The front of the ferry has been closed up for the ocean voyage according to the blurb with the photo.

*


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 01:12:14 AM

nwboater wrote:
As others have pointed out, we just don't use horns here in the PNW -- probably because we*routinely share the*water*ways with (literally!) tons of*ferries and other commercial traffic, including oil tankers and container ships. Next time, try*connecting on VHF Ch 13. Chances are you'll get a faster reply than calling on*Ch 16. *

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*No reason to communicate here.* I made a 40-degree course adjustment to avoid this ship in Carquinez Strait today between Benicia and Port Costa.


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 01:09:11 AM

Giggitoni wrote:
Do you folks in the PNW have high-speed ferries?

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*Quid pro quo.....* Do you folks in SFO Bay have VTS (Vessel Traffic Service)?* We do.* Actually we have three of them--- Seattle VTS, Victoria VTS, and Vancouver VTS.* They're like air traffic control for vessels.* Using radar and today perhaps GPS and AIS, they have controllers who monitor commercial vessel traffic and keep the vessels apprised of othe traffic in their vicinity and so forth.

While it's set up for commercial traffic there is no reason that a recreational boat can't use it.* We monitor it when we are in areas of high commercial traffic, and in poor visibility if we're going to be crossing a shipping lane or are entering*an area with*commerical traffic*we'll call up the relevant VTS and give them our name, vessel type, current position, speed and course and ask for any information regarding other vessels.* When we're clear of the shipping lane or traffic area we call them up and* tell them so.

We don't communicate with VTS when the visibility is good.* They don't need us giving them information they don't need although we often monitor the channel for the water we're in just to have a mental image of what's going on.* With all the islands you can't always*see visually or with radar what's coming your way so hearing the vessel and VTS communications can be handy.

If you have VTS in SFO Bay it could be a very useful thing to monitor, particularly in areas with a lot of commercial traffic.

Marin wrote:Giggitoni wrote:
Do you folks in the PNW have high-speed ferries? High speed meaning 34kts+. Off subject, just curious.

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Not really.* There is the Victoria Clipper, a big water-jet powered catamaran (I don't know if there's only one*Clipper*or more than one) that runs between Seattle and Victoria and has some other runs it makes from time to time.* I don't know how fast it goes but seeing it underway*from a distance it goes at a pretty good clip.

In the San Juans there are several small passenger ferries (50-60 feet maybe) that run on a semi-plane on a regular route.* The Washington State ferries are a lot faster than they appear to be.* Larry's estimate of 20 knots is probably pretty good.

And Vancouver, BC has several so-called "fast ferries" that carry passengers only back and forth from downtown Vancouver to West Vancouver and North Vancouver and other communities on the other side of the harbor.* But I don't know how fast they go.

The big BC ferries are larger than the Washington State ferries and seem to go considerably faster when they are in open water, but I don't know how fast is "faster."

First photo is the Victoria Clipper (or one of them).* Second photo is a new BC ferry shown leaving Europe on its delivery voyage to BC.* The front of the ferry has been closed up for the ocean voyage according to the blurb with the photo.

*



-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 01:12:14 AM

*Just for fun I looked into the speeds of the BC ferries that Marin mentioned. The large ferries that cross Georgia Strait *on various routes generally are rated to run at 20.5 knots, while the largest (there are only four; one is shown in Marin's photo) run at 23 knots. The Sea Buses that run between Vancouver and North Vancouver run at 11.5 knots.

"I operate under the presumption boats don't follow the rules."


I operate under the presumption boats don't KNOW the rules.

Marin, yes we have VTS in SFO. I monitor the channel when under power. That along with my iPad with Ship Finder running I manage to stay clear of ships and ferries (34kts+).

Marin
The ferries between Vancouver and North Vancouver are the "Sea Bus" catamarans. They have never been termed "fast". They exceed my speed (8knots) but not twice, as they go around 15 knots.

The "Fast Ferries" of some local notoriety were built here and never fully put into service, as they became a political albatross for the gov't of the day, by costing .5 Billion. They were sold off at scrap value to the Washington Marine Group a few years ago. Dennis W subsequently found buyers in Dubai, where they were shipped on Dockwise semi submersible ships, to be made into private yachts for Arab Princes.

They could do 34+, but created a stacked wash (one from each hull, that would frequently arrive together) that resulted in a restricted speed zone of several miles from shore, defeating the whole purpose of being "fast". Instead of shortening the time for a crossing from Vancouver to Nanaimo, they merely reduced the capacity of the fleet. New Gov't, different ferries, so now we have some big, 20knot boats, (Marin's 2nd photo).

They tried "fast ferries" here, too. I'm not sure they were catamarans, but they ran between Seattle and Bremerton. Major complaints from property owners about the wakes eroding the shorelines in Rich Passage on the way into Bremerton. That plus poor ridership caused them to be taken out of service. They had been built locally (Washington State law requires that all ferries for the state system be built in Washington). I don't know what happened to them.

Our thirty-eight-knot*catamaran ferries make wakes much smaller than the USCG boats.


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 01:21:40 PM

Mark, If I had a big ole shinny set of Kahlenberg Horns, I'd toot 'em too. *Get out on the open water and toot your heart out. You go, boy!

Marin wrote:
...*They had been built locally (Washington State law requires that all ferries for the state system be built in Washington). I don't know what happened to them.

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*Most of the Vallejo ferries, such as the Solano, were built in Anacortes, Washington.* These 41-meter-long ferries*make a max speed of 38 knots with 6220 horsepower.

Mark--- I just realized nobody has addressed your original question: are you not worthy of a couple of toots? From the perspective of the commercial guys, no, you're not.

Unless you are seriously in their way in which case they will give you repeated blasts on their horns and and give you the finger as emphasis of the regard they have for your little toy boat.





-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 02:20:02 PM

Moonstruck wrote:
Mark, If I had a big ole shinny set of Kahlenberg Horns, I'd toot 'em too. *Get out on the open water and toot your heart out. You go, boy!

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Don

Would that not constitute "tooting his own horn"?**

Marin wrote:
Mark--- I just realized nobody has addressed your original question: are you not worthy of a couple of toots? From the perspective of the commercial guys, no, you're not.

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*That's about what I'd expected.* At least it's not just me.

Mark I just read this whole thing... oh boy.*

Any hoo...* in my experience on the SF Bay, the only time you'll hear a horn is if one of the freighters gives five blasts at some oblivious boater.

The only time we have had a recreational vessel use a horn to signal their intentions, it was a trawler up on the delta tooting his horn at us to let us know he was passing us.* We slowed down so he could slow down as he passed.*

We tried to return the favor with a sailboat (motoring) in the Alameda estuary on Friday evening.* He was completely oblivious to us.* I tooted my horn and got not so much as a glance.* He was moving around the boat, including going down below a few brief times, and never once appeared to look around and take any notice of his surroundings.**I contemplating hailing him but decided not to be so nice to someone so oblivious.* His boat barely reacted to our wake so I guess it was a non-issue anyway.

markpierce wrote:
*That's about what I'd expected.* At least it's not just me.

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*No, it's not.*

Many years ago I shot for a Matson TV commercial on board their then-brand-new roll-on/roll-off ship Matsonia.* The commercial followed a new farm tractor from the manufacturer in the midwest to a ranch on the Big Island in Hawaii via rail and Matson.* My job was to get some "at sea" footage on the ship on the voyage from Oakland to Hilo.

I was on the ship's*bridge when we left Oakland and stayed there filming*until we cleared the Golden Gate.* The Matsonia had a nice comfortable seat right at the point of the bow behind a Plex windscreen.* There was an intercom there and when the ship was entering or leaving port a crewman sat in the seat and provided warnings to the bridge*about smaller boats that might present a problem because these boats were sometime invisible behind the bulk of tthe ship stretching forward of the bridge.

It was a nice day and there were a fair number of sail and power boats on the bay, although I suspect not anywhere near as many as there are these days.* And the running commentary from the fellow in the bow seat and the captain and others on the bridge left a permanent impression of how we in our toy boats are viewed by the pros.

The entire time across the bay it was:

"There's another one of those f*cking cruisers coming at us from the left.

*[interestingly, all directions on the ship were given in terms of right and left, not starboard and port. There were even two huge signs above the forward bridge windows, one in red with a big arrow that said "Left" and the other in green with a big arrow that said "Right."]

"Goddam*ed sailboaters, they don't know jack-sh*t about sh*t."

"What's the matter with that dumba*s in the white cruiser?* Doesn't he f*cking see us?"

"This stupid f*ck*in front of us doesn't have a f*cking clue that we're here. Give him a blast so we can watch him sh*t his pants when he looks around."

And on and on and on.* A lot of the commentary was actually very funny albeit not at all complimentary to the "stupid f*ck" in the boat in question.

I've heard similar commentary when riding the flight decks of commercial airliners all over the world.* Only there they are talking about general aviation aircraft that are operating on the same airfield.* I've ridden BA 747-400s from Europe to the West Coast, Air Malta 737s and A320s between London and Malta, and a lot of other stuff in between.* The accents change but the sentiments don't.* With few exceptions the pros regard the amateurs as pond scum.


-- Edited by Marin on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 06:03:54 PM

I was a crew boat Capt. in the Gulf of Mex for 2 years. The size of these boats range from 90' to 135'. We hauled work crews and supplies to the platforms and rigs.

These boats were built for hauling and not for comfort. If seaworthyness were largely based on sea kindlyness, these boats would fail miserably. That being said, I will add that you can't hear a damned thing inside of the wheelhouse except for engine noise - sometimes up to 6 engines. This should help sone in answering your question.

We always used "whitle signals' via radio. At the time I was Capt., whistle signals by radio were not legal, they had to be done by horn. *If we relied on horns alone, there would be wrecks on a daily basis. Thank God, the industry realized this.

*


-- Edited by Tony B on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 06:37:12 PM

markpierce wrote:**Most of the Vallejo ferries, such as the Solano, were built in Anacortes, Washington.* These 41-meter-long ferries*make a max speed of 38 knots with 6220 horsepower.

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*Mark

We do have a ship yard in Anacortes, Dakota Creek, who builds large fishing boats, tugs and work boats, and they may have built some*ferries for the bay area too.* But I ran into this article below which talks about Nichols Brothers Boat Building on South Whidbey Island about 25 miles south of Anacortes who built some boats for WETA in the Bay area. This also answers the question of what happened to our foot ferries.* You got those too??

Larry B

To update the Bay Area's foot-ferry fleet, the agency recently took delivery of a new, $8.8 million, 149-passenger twin-hulled catamaran constructed by Nichols Brothers Boat Builders of Freeland, Wash., on Whidbey Island, right here in our very own Puget Sound. The company has built 41 similar vessels since 1982, but the latest iteration is state of the art, as the South Whidbey Island Record reports. Nichols Brothers is already building a second model for WETA, one of three more boats the agency has ordered to date and expects to have running this year.

Meanwhile, the other foot-ferry agency in the Bay Area, which also operates the Golden Gate Bridge, has bought for $4 million two late-90s vintage high speed passenger-only vessels from Washington State Ferries. The boats will run between San Francisco, and Larkspur and Sausalito. They were used on the Bremerton-Seattle passenger-only route, which was discontinued because of lawsuits from waterfront homeowners in narrow Rich Passage who contended the voluminous wakes from the boats caused shoreline erosion. That is not expected to be an issue in the more open waters of the Bay Area.

*

Pineapple Girl wrote:
... The only time we have had a recreational vessel use a horn to signal their intentions, it was a trawler up on the delta tooting his horn at us to let us know he was passing us.* We slowed down so he could slow down as he passed. ...*

Click to expand...

*Yesterday, heading east near the southern shore of Carquinez Strait,*immediately east of the C&H sugar plant, a sedan cruiser was a couple of hundred yards ahead,*heading directly in front of*me but at a very slight angle toward his port.* It looked like a starboard-to-starboard pass, so I tooted twice.* Although the cruiser didn't sound, it turned to*its port in response.* I made a ten-degree "dance" to my port, and we waved happily in passing.

Copacetic!


-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 08:08:58 PM

Marin wrote:
"There's another one of those f*cking cruisers coming at us from the left.

*[interestingly, all directions on the ship were given in terms of right and left, not starboard and port. There were even two huge signs above the forward bridge windows, one in red with a big arrow that said "Left" and the other in green with a big arrow that said "Right."]

"Goddam*ed sailboaters, they don't know jack-sh*t about sh*t."

"What's the matter with that dumba*s in the white cruiser?* Doesn't he f*cking see us?"

"This stupid f*ck*in front of us doesn't have a f*cking clue that we're here. Give him a blast so we can watch him sh*t his pants when he looks around."

Click to expand...

*Can understand the sentiment.* Anyone of those ##### can cost their company millions and the officers' licenses.* Do my best to avoid that.

I remember years ago, a night encounter with a large freighter. I tried to raise him on the VHF as it looked as though our courses would converge. No response so I altered course, and damn if the big boy didn't alter too, We now seemed locked into collision, I Showed spot light on the sail.tried the radio, no luck. This Monster would settle for nothing less than my boat made matchsticks in it's wheel. I thought of the movie Duel. No matter which way I turned the ship would match me. I was sure there was someone having a good laugh at my expense up on the bridge. At last I turned a 180 and as the ship was crossing my stern at about 100 feet away, I could see the bridge clearly and there wasn't a soul present.
I then went about the task of cleaning out my shorts!

Edelweiss wrote:This also answers the question of what happened to our foot ferries.* You got those too??

Click to expand...

Larry B

To update the Bay Area's foot-ferry fleet, the agency recently took delivery of a new, $8.8 million, 149-passenger twin-hulled catamaran constructed by Nichols Brothers Boat Builders of Freeland, Wash., on Whidbey Island, right here in our very own Puget Sound. The company has built 41 similar vessels since 1982, but the latest iteration is state of the art, as the South Whidbey Island Record reports. Nichols Brothers is already building a second model for WETA, one of three more boats the agency has ordered to date and expects to have running this year.

Meanwhile, the other foot-ferry agency in the Bay Area, which also operates the Golden Gate Bridge, has bought for $4 million two late-90s vintage high speed passenger-only vessels from Washington State Ferries. The boats will run between San Francisco, and Larkspur and Sausalito. They were used on the Bremerton-Seattle passenger-only route, which was discontinued because of lawsuits from waterfront homeowners in narrow Rich Passage who contended the voluminous wakes from the boats caused shoreline erosion. That is not expected to be an issue in the more open waters of the Bay Area.

*

There are car ferries up in the delta but all the commuter ferries on the SF bay are foot ferries.** I did not know they were called that.

markpierce wrote:Pineapple Girl wrote:
... The only time we have had a recreational vessel use a horn to signal their intentions, it was a trawler up on the delta tooting his horn at us to let us know he was passing us.* We slowed down so he could slow down as he passed. ...*

Click to expand...

*Yesterday, heading east near the southern shore of Carquinez Strait,*immediately east of the C&H sugar plant, a sedan cruiser was a couple of hundred yards ahead,*heading directly in front of*me but at a very slight angle toward his port.* It looked like a starboard-to-starboard pass, so I tooted twice.* Although the cruiser didn't sound, it turned to*its port in response.* I made a ten-degree "dance" to my port, and we waved happily in passing.

Copacetic!



-- Edited by markpierce on Tuesday 21st of February 2012 08:08:58 PM

*I should have said Overtaking instead of passing.* I'm glad you had a good experience.*

Pineapple Girl wrote:
There are car ferries up in the delta but all the commuter ferries on the SF bay are foot ferries.** I did not know they were called that.

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*Those Delta car ferries are free for the travelers.

http://www.californiadelta.org/ferries.htm

So I was merrily paddling my way down the Columbia river in my kayak early one morning when some LEO boat heading upstream flashed his lights and hit a short burst of his siren as he passed me. Thinking he was being cordial, I waved "hello" back to him. Then I heard the horn of the freighter coming up behind me at about 15 Knts ... Got my morning exercise paddling out of the way in a big hurry!

*

The picture shows a heavy at anchor, but, believe me, I kept a sharp eye out for them over my shoulder (you can't hear 'em sneaking up on you).

dvd