Advice on Choosing a Boat

Hi Guys - I'm new to this forum. I've been hanging around for quite a while but I haven't had anything to add or ask until now, and I'm hoping for some*advice.
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We're currently searching for a boat to buy and we know what we want; a 42' Krogen. My wife and I both think they're beautiful and they fit our needs well. We'd prefer one in the 1986 to 1989 range. We've looked at*four now,*and made an offer on one that wasn't accepted. We're currently just watching what's available and trying to learn all we can about the purchase process in the meantime.
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A few minutes ago I read a comment in an*older post that said "A KK42 well maintained doesnt stay on the market very long if its market priced". And that's exactly what I want, a good boat that's fairly priced. Trouble is I don't know how to determine either. I don't really have an idea of which available boat is the best without going to a full survey; and they all seem overpriced.
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So I guess my question is; How do I know if a*boat*is worthy of making an offer before going to a survey? One we looked at and liked has amost 9000 hours on the engine*and that*concerns me. It seems to be in pretty fair shape other than that, but I don't really know. And then comes the price. We thought we at least had a shot with our offer, (which was low but*realistic), but the owner wasn't inclined to move on the cost.
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It's a big purchase and I'd like to get it right the first time. Any thoughts?
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Richard



-- Edited by BlueSky on Saturday 18th of February 2012 09:35:44 PM


-- Edited by BlueSky on Saturday 18th of February 2012 09:39:01 PM

BlueSky wrote:Hi Guys - I'm new to this forum. I've been hanging around for quite a while but I haven't had anything to add or ask until now, and I'm hoping for some*advice.
We're currently searching for a boat to buy and we know what we want; a 42' Krogen. My wife and I both think they're beautiful and they fit our needs well. We'd prefer one in the 1986 to 1989 range. We've looked at*four now,*and made an offer on one that wasn't accepted. We're currently just watching what's available and trying to learn all we can about the purchase process in the meantime.
A few minutes ago I read a comment in an*older post that said "A KK42 well maintained doesnt stay on the market very long if its market priced". And that's exactly what I want, a good boat that's fairly priced. Trouble is I don't know how to determine either. I don't really have an idea of which available boat is the best without going to a full survey; and they all seem overpriced.
So I guess my question is; How do I know if a*boat*is worthy of making an offer before going to a survey? One we looked at and liked has amost 9000 hours on the engine*and that*concerns me. It seems to be in pretty fair shape other than that, but I don't really know. And then comes the price. We thought we at least had a shot with our offer, (which was low but*realistic), but the owner wasn't inclined to move on the cost.
It's a big purchase and I'd like to get it right the first time. Any thoughts?
*
Richard

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*Is this your first big boat purchase?

If you know what you want and you've looked at enough to be sure you know what you want then be patient. Patience is all a buyer ever needs.

You need to educate yourself as much as possible on the type of boat you want (both from a technical point of view and the market). This will allow you to identify a potential good deal. Then it's down to the survey. This is your best tool to negociate and to know exactly what you are buying. It's a buyer's market but it can take a while before the right one comes along. Just be patient.

Hey Scott, the thing you probably ( reading between the lines ) don't want to do is purchase and then find out you have a lot of repairs i.e engine rebuild.

When we purchased, my seller had the Survey done for me ( sweet ) so it didn't cost me anything. Then I had a friend who does Boat Surveys check it out and all was good. Maybe ask the seller(s) if there was anyone that was interested in purchasing the boat before that already paid for a Survey but couldn't come up with the money to purchase. Get a contact number to see if he/she would be willing to sell it to you half price or even better give it to you. At least it is worth a try! Or there maybe someone that wouldn't mind checking out the boat for you without doing a full blown Survey. There are lots around that has experience on what to look for or give you a better idea on what the condition of things are.*

One thing though, unless you purchase new, there will be work to do so one must budget for that too.

Don't rush into something that you will regret... we looked a lot before we purchased.

Good luck
Elwin*

*

Thanks Guys.

I've had multiple small boats through the years and my last boat was a 34" Express Cruiser. I've never owned anything quite this size.

How concerned should I be about 9000 hours on an engine? No matter how well it's been maintained it has to be close to the end; doesn't it?

BlueSky wrote:How concerned should I be about 9000 hours on an engine? No matter how well it's been maintained it has to be close to the end; doesn't it?

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* * * ** IMHO, yes, it has to be close to a major overhaul. (Or the end.) There will be some on this forum that will say that "it could go 20,000 hours if it has been well maintained and not punished." If I loved a boat and it had 9,000 hours on the engine, there would have to be a significant price reduction by the seller before I would even think about it.

I agree Walt.


Elwin*

BlueSky wrote:
How concerned should I be about 9000 hours on an engine? No matter how well it's been maintained it has to be close to the end; doesn't it?

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Depends on the make and model of engine and how it was operated during all those 9,000 hours.* That's definitely getting up there in terms of engine age but so much depends on how it was operated and maintained it's impossible without knowing this if it really is running out of time or has a few thousand more left in it.

Another factor is how much do you anticipate using the boat?* Do you think you'll put two or three thousand hours on it while you own it?*Or more?*

If you anticpate using the boat for the typical 100-150 hours that seems to be the average time put on cruising boats like ours per year, that works out to about twenty years of use out of the boat if you put 3,000 more hours on it.* Do you anticiapte owning it that long?

If you figure owning the boat for say, ten years and you figure you'll do that 100-150 hours per year, 9000 hours on the engine may not be an issue if the engine has been operated and maintained properly and everything else about the boat is perfect for you.

I would be very wary of a seller's survey.We found out the hard way that it can be pretty much useless. As our insurer said, the surveyor is going to be biased toward whoever is paying them, at least to some degree. In our case it was to a large degree.*

What engine and transmission?

Conrad wrote:
I would be very wary of a seller's survey.We found out the hard way that it can be pretty much useless. As our insurer said, the surveyor is going to be biased toward whoever is paying them, at least to some degree. In our case it was to a large degree.*

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ANY*kind of survey I'd be wary of...there's always hidden*problems and brand new engines have issues (hopefully under warranty).... though you still lose a big chunk of the boating season and often the engine continues to have issues until the bugs are worked out.

9000 hour engine...yeah I'd be thinking new engine pretty soon...certainly before I headed away from places that could replace it quickly and have a few to bargain with.

But when was the last time you found 2 boats so identical with one having a 1000 hr engine and the other with a 9000 hr engine?* How do you set a fair price and THEN come up with a $10000-$20000 drop in price due to the engines age???* I can't*...and I've been buying and around boats a pretty long time.* Heck a paint job on a 40 foot trawler costs more than an engine now....bad woodwork on the interior is almost as much.* Electronics are halfway there for sure.* So how do you argue off money...more than a few thousand just because the engine is high time but still running and could easily go another 3000 hrs?* If it just had a new heat exchanger, starter, alternator, tranny cooler...you would be hard pressed to argue too much off from me.

Negotiate a 9000 hr engine?...sure but I doubt you'll argue too much about just the engine...the overall condition of the boat and TOTAL equipment package has just as much effect on price in my book.

This is an interesting site, http://www.yachtsurvey.com/ lots of good information by a knowlegable, maybe a bit hardnosed guy, check out boat reviews and the section on buying a boat plus others.
For an initial opinion, do you have any experienced boating friends who might take a look at it with you that would be a good start.
Once you find a make you like see if they have an owners site maybe you can you can view or even join.
And don't get romanced by the boat!
Good luck,
Steve W

But when was the last time you found 2 boats so identical with one having a 1000 hr engine and the other with a 9000 hr engine? How do you set a fair price and THEN come up with a $10000-$20000 drop in price due to the engines age???

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That's exactly my problem. How do*I*determine the true condition and*a fair price for each without a survey on both? I only spent an hour or so on both when I saw them and you can't determine much from that.

I've looked at comparable sales for a reference but you don't learn much, and*I know that eventually it comes down to what I'll pay and what the seller*will take. I just can't decide*on a baseline price*that's reasonable for*both of those boats. The listing prices on both seem unrealistic.*

The 1800 hour boat has been on the market for three years; the 9000 hour boat for three months. But they are both almost identically priced. How do I factor that into the equation?

BlueSky wrote:
But when was the last time you found 2 boats so identical with one having a 1000 hr engine and the other with a 9000 hr engine? How do you set a fair price and THEN come up with a $10000-$20000 drop in price due to the engines age???

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That's exactly my problem. How do*I*determine the true condition and*a fair price for each without a survey on both? I only spent an hour or so on both when I saw them and you can't determine much from that.

I've looked at comparable sales for a reference but you don't learn much, and*I know that eventually it comes down to what I'll pay and what the seller*will take. I just can't decide*on a baseline price*that's reasonable for*both of those boats. The listing prices on both seem unrealistic.*

The 1800 hour boat has been on the market for three years; the 9000 hour boat for three months. But they are both almost identically priced. How do I factor that into the equation?

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*You can't...the boat I just bought was "about" what I wanted....any older boat is a work in progress.* I bought a decent name boat that was laid out like I wanted.* there were only a few on the maket that met my limitations, likes, dislikes.

The survey went well...yeah...I just got finished grinding off the entire bottom of the boat due to hydrolysis ($20,000) if a yard did it.* Yesterday I noticed a dark spot about a foot long at the bottom of the keel.* So I ground into it.* I ground into the hollow spot and about 50 gallons of water came out (garden hose flow for over 20 minutes).* Where was the surveyor on that one?* Some had told me the keels were full of concrete.

The only way I can describe on how to price a boat is to know it's design SO well...there's no "secrets" that can hide from you.* NEVER depend on a surveyor unless you know the guy thoroughly and even then I would never accept the survey as 90% good unless I had an owner like me whose owned the same kind/model year boat go through the survey process with the surveyor....

Back to pricing...there's always 3 tiers....bad, good, and really nice at least on the surface.* The bad is always too much work unless you are broke and need a roof over your head quick.* The really nice on the surface can still have the same problems as "good boats" but look prettier.* The good are always going to have tens of thousands of dollars worth of work...but are usually priced half way between the bad and really nice.

So you just have to do the homework....look through hundreds of ads (mine was only on Craigs list a week before I put a deposit on her/flew down as soon as I saw the ad/price and talked to the PO).* Then look at the general condition of some of the boats (but they do tend to fall into the 3 categories especialy if there are less than 25 boats that meet your criteria)...and roll the dice.* On a $50,000 boat...expect to pay for at least $25000 worth of unknown stuff....on a $100,000 boat it may be only $10-$15000.* You still come out ahead with the cheaper boat..especially if you can do the work yourself.* You may never make that cheaper boat look as good...not without spending more than the more expensive one to begin with...but at some point who cares????* I don't...if you want yachtie...you pay for it up front, slave over the look and still take a hit when you sell...just not my style.*

I'll start*with "good"... customize and fix to my standards*...have a better boat than the manufacturer produced at a fraction of new...but it will never get any better than halfway between "yacht" and "workboat" looks...that's OK cause the beer will be just as cold and the sunset just as pretty from where I sit.

BlueSky wrote:
But when was the last time you found 2 boats so identical with one having a 1000 hr engine and the other with a 9000 hr engine? How do you set a fair price and THEN come up with a $10000-$20000 drop in price due to the engines age???

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That's exactly my problem. How do*I*determine the true condition and*a fair price for each without a survey on both? I only spent an hour or so on both when I saw them and you can't determine much from that.

I've looked at comparable sales for a reference but you don't learn much, and*I know that eventually it comes down to what I'll pay and what the seller*will take. I just can't decide*on a baseline price*that's reasonable for*both of those boats. The listing prices on both seem unrealistic.*

The 1800 hour boat has been on the market for three years; the 9000 hour boat for three months. But they are both almost identically priced. How do I factor that into the equation?

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*OK...my other post was my soapbox post...here's the real answer...I bet I could find 10-20 major differences in the 2 boats you are looking at anyway...things that may affect the price almost what it would cost to repower..or at least a big chunk.

If they are identical...which I doubt...the 9000 hour engine is 3/4 of the way to a repower and the other is only a 1/4 say. $20,000 repower....offer the 9000 hr boat $10000 less and use the other as an example.

Here's the rub...if it were me..I'd have your head spinning why my boat with a 9000 hr engine is 2X what the other one is and what a GREAT bargain you are getting...so have at it...

BlueSky wrote:
That's exactly my problem. How do*I*determine the true condition and*a fair price for each without a survey on both? I only spent an hour or so on both when I saw them and you can't determine much from that.

I've looked at comparable sales for a reference but you don't learn much, and*I know that eventually it comes down to what I'll pay and what the seller*will take. I just can't decide*on a baseline price*that's reasonable for*both of those boats. The listing prices on both seem unrealistic.*

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You're placing WAY too much faith in the mysterious survey process.* A surveyor is just another guy whose opinion you pay for.* Apparently some of them have opinions worth paying for.* I haven't met them but I trust they do exist.*

If you only spent an hour on the boat why would you think you are ready to make an offer on it?

You're not ready to make an offer.* Look at about 30 more boats and then think about making an offer.


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--- If you only spent an hour on the boat why would you think you are ready to make an offer on it? ---

I agree. But how*do you get to spend more significant time with it? Should I ask them to take me out for a test ride?

--- You're not ready to make an offer. Look at about 30 more boats and then think about making an offer. ---

There aren't 30 more Krogens to look at. Over the last couple years we have looked at boats, and looked at more boats and looked at more boats. I'm confident I know which type of boat we want. But we new we were not ready to buy then. Now that we are ready / able to buy, I just want to do it right. In five years I don't want to be saying to myself that I wish I had done something different. It's not a clear cut process.

There's another way to go about this, but it will cost you some.

Instead of hiring a surveyor for a full survey, hire him for a informal walkthrough.

Most surveyors will be happy to do this for a nominal fee. That way you'll be able to tell if the boat is even worth looking further at.

ksanders wrote:
There's another way to go about this, but it will cost you some.

Instead of hiring a surveyor for a full survey, hire him for a informal walkthrough.

Most surveyors will be happy to do this for a nominal fee. That way you'll be able to tell if the boat is even worth looking further at.

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*unless the surveyor is very familiar with that style boat...not even worth it till you pay him for the survey you HAVE to get to get it insured.

To the OP..if you want a Krogen and you want it now...buy either one (with my past advice) and bite the bullet...that's what I had to do with my Albin.

I too wanted a KK42 but none were in my price range so I settled for another type.* There always was one KK42 that was a big step down..though never looked at her..I suspected something with the cored hull or REALLY bad housekeeping compared to the pack.

All the others fell into my other 2 categories of good...then really good..again some were in need of a lot of TLC (but were turnkey) and the others probable as good or better than new.

If you are SOLID on a KK42...the you might as well flip a coin on a couple in your price range...go look...a rough look is all you need...then offer.* The answer is usually yes or no..

Once purchased and you REALLY tear into her...is when...AND ONLY THEN...do you find out whether you paid a fair price.

Do you play cards, dice, poker or slots?* If so, you probably do everything you can to increase the odd's in your favor before you place the bet. Still, no matter how much homework you do to get the odd's in your favor, at some point you have to place your bet.* After that, it doesn't take too long to determine if youv'e won or lost that round.* Buying a boat is pretty similar, but you can do far more to put the odds in your favor than you can when pulling the slot machine handle.* The best thing you can do is to educate yourself on all things related to boats. Read all the books you can on mechanical and electrical systems, take a diesel repair class, hang out at boat yards and ask questions, volunteer to work on museum boats, take an automotive repair class, join the owners club and ask current owners lots of questions.* Go to the owners club gatherings and get on as many boats as possible and ask questions.* The more informed you are, the better chances you will get the right boat for your budget and desires at a price you are comfortable with.

Brokers are a good source of pricing information. Most can pull up past sales of similar boats for the last few years.* While there is no way to determine the condition of those boats, the more expensive ones probably were in much better shape than the least expensive ones.* Try to determine where the boat your interested in falls and offer accordingly.

Surveyors are all over the map quality wise.* Ask for references and then call those references, but realize no one would give you give you bad references so don't expect to hear that someone's survey missed a lot of expensive problems. Ask everyone you can who they used and if they would use them again.*

Ultimately, once you have educated your self as much as possible, you have to place your bet and roll the dice. If you've done your homework properly you stand a much better chance of coming out a winner.* Meanwhile enjoy the process, it's as much fun as actually owning the boat and it's much less expensive......Arctic Traveller

Trawler training at www.arctictraveller.com

*

BlueSky wrote:
--- If you only spent an hour on the boat why would you think you are ready to make an offer on it? ---

I agree. But how*do you get to spend more significant time with it? Should I ask them to take me out for a test ride

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No you are not going to get a seatrial without a 10% deposit. But if you are a cash buyer, not a gee I have to go find financing buyer, you tell the broker you want to crawl around for a couple of hours and take your own oil analysis. If the broker won't go for it find another broker. If the owner won't go for it find another boat. Maybe this won't fly where you live but it does in So Cal. Good luck

BlueSky wrote:
--- You're not ready to make an offer. Look at about 30 more boats and then think about making an offer. ---

There aren't 30 more Krogens to look at. Over the last couple years we have looked at boats, and looked at more boats and looked at more boats. I'm confident I know which type of boat we want. But we new we were not ready to buy then. Now that we are ready / able to buy, I just want to do it right. In five years I don't want to be saying to myself that I wish I had done something different. It's not a clear cut process.

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If you're really ready to buy then you know the issues to look for on the boat/boats that you have settled on looking at.* Then you take however long it takes to determine whether those issues are present and if so make an estimate of how much it is going to cost to fix them.* If the broker/owner is unwilling to let you do that thorough an investigation then you assume those issues are present and price your offer accordingly.* And if you're me - ie. fundamentally a pessimist (realist?) - then you assume that there will be issues that you don't identify and price that into your offer as well.

Most importantly you are prepared to walk if the seller won't meet your price.* Way too many people approach a negotiation with the attitude of "let's see if I can get a discount on this thing that I really want".* Far better to say to yourself "this boat is worth exactly $xxx,xxx to me - why would I pay more?"

Keith can chime on this, but more than the engine I'd be careful on the hull. I believe this year of K42 is cored below the waterline. Two years ago a friend bought one and it was water logged in much of the core. The surveyor found some saturation but not all, oops big time.

Figure a rebuild on a 120 Lehman or Perkins at about $10K or a reman Cummins at about $15K if you do a lot of wrench turning.

I think every cruising-type boat--- brand new or 30 years old--- has problems. We've watched a brand new GB52 go through some pretty major post-delivery surgery to correct problems that arose because of the type of engines the owner insisted that GB put in the boat, problems with stainless that turned out to have been faultily made, and so on. And our own now-39-year-old boat is a never ending to-do list. Good hull and engine surveyors-- and not all of them are good-- can find a whole lot of things that are not up to snuff on a boat, as well as help determine that things are actually pretty good. But they won't find everything, and the very nature of a boat is such that five minutes after the surveyors leave, something new, minor or major, will crop up.

But if you really want a boat, at some point you have to pull the trigger. The best thing you can do, in my opinion, is gather as much information as you can about the boats you're interested in. The surveys are part of that. So is talking to other KK owners, if that's the kind of boat you've decided you want. So is perusing owners forums and asking questions. So is reading stuff like David Pascoe's website that an earlier poster referenced.

I've mentioned this before in other discussions, but in addition to our own broker who was and is very experienced with GBs, and the hull and engine surveyors we hired to check out the boat we subsequently bought, we also took with us to California a good friend whose lifelong career has been in the marine engine and generator business. He had a vast amount of experience with boats--- all kinds of boats and yachts--- from an engineering, powering, and systems viewpoint. He didn't care if we bought the boat or not, he had no horse in the race at all. He was a totally objective set of eyes. His presence, observations, opinions, and advice made a major difference in how our inspection and checkout, sea trial, and the surveys went, and ultimately had a major influence on our decision. His airfare, hotel, and expenses are the best money we have ever paid for anything because everything he said and predicted about the boat have been proven right on the money over the last 13 years.

I don't know if you know anyone who could play a similar role as you look at boats that interest you, but if there is I would strongly recommend that you engage them in your search and decision.

I also put a lot of faith in "gut feel." You can get all the information you can get about a boat, you can have the surveys, you can sea trial it, you can do the math, you can balance engine hours against the overall condition of the boat, and so on. But I have found that for me, anyway, a big decision-- be it buying a boat, house, making a major location change--- in the end comes down to my basic feeling about it. Even if there are almost as many reasons not to do something as do it, I've found that if in the end I do what "feels right," I always make the correct decision.

There are a bazillion boats for sale out there and there always will be. If a boat deal doesn't feel right to you, pass it up. To think that you'll find yourself a few years down the road still boatless and wishing you'd bought the one you passed on earlier is a false worry, I think. Boats of all kinds are coming on the market all the time. If you really like a particular boat but are worried about the engine hours, if you buy the boat you will still be worried about the engine hours. And this constant worry or concern will take the edge off your enjoyment of the boat.

Our boat was 25 years old when we bought it and it had a huge list of issues, from a teak deck that needed a lot of work to brightwork that needed redoing to toilets that needed overhauling to needing new engine mounts to....... the list went on. BUT..... we knew, thanks in large part to the experience and advice of our friend-- pretty much exactly what we were getting into. We could start using the boat right away and enjoying it rather than have to spend a ton of time and money getting it to the point where we could use it.* And since we knew the cons of the boat as well as the pros, and we felt we could accept and deal with the cons over time, we did not start out our cruising experience with an overlying worry about some fundamenal aspect of the boat.

So if a boat feels right, get it.* If it doesn't, pass and go on to the next one.* Because there is always a next one.





-- Edited by Marin on Saturday 18th of February 2012 12:32:44 PM

A boat with a 9000 hour engine has been used, a dock Queen with 1000 was not.

You can be sure all the gear that needs to function will operate on the 9000 boat.

Only the fridge , air cond , microwave and TV will be sure to function on the dock cottage.

I didn't read the entire thread, but my '86 Krogen is cored with PVC foam. Good thing is that it won't rot. I had tons of blisters on it when I purchased her, and negotiated a price reduction to have them fixed properly. That being said, I could have never done a thing and it would still be fine. Even extensive blistering is not a structural problem, mostly cosmetic. I did have my hull peeled and post-cured with the Hotvac system, then relaminated. Cost about $25K. Nary a blister since. You will find another problem with Krogens in that time frame - it's called "oil-canning". There may be 4*deflections in the hull that can be fixed, but again, it's not a structural issue. I never addressed that on mine and have basically forgotten about them.

The upper decks are an area you have to be careful with. With all those screws, you will probably have some soft spots and rot somewhere. You can also have this fixed, but it's terribly expensive. I just maintain mine as best as I can. Overall great boats!

BlueSky wrote:*In five years I don't want to be saying to myself that I wish I had done something different.

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*Now that's funny! *It won't take you 5 weeks before you are going to find something that is going to make you say, "I bet that other boat didn't have this SHI* going on" *but that is boating. *My wife and I absolutely fell in love with the 42'KK when we saw our first one. *Then we went aboard a 47'Atlantic (the holy grail to this day).* My humble advice is don't fall so in love with one boat that it blocks out the possibility of another boat being even better suited to you. *Try to figure out the design features you must have and then search out the different types of boats that offer it. *For us it was that the boat had to have a cockpit, no ifs ands or buts. *This made us pass up many INCREDIBLE deals on sundeck/aft cabin boats but we knew that we have to have a cockpit with for dogs. *I would love to have gotten a Chris Craft 48 Catalina but with so few having been made they are still like unobtainium with our budget. *So we decided to buy something we could buy outright, fix up the way we want it, and enjoy it now instead of continuing the hunt. *I feel it was the right thing to do so that my wife can learn some of the quirks of boats/boating and have some real input and understanding when it comes time to get the "dream boat".

Any chance of tracking down the surveyor that help the person selling it now? He'd be the guy to do a simple walk-thru.

BlueSky wrote:
There aren't 30 more Krogens to look at. Over the last couple years we have looked at boats, and looked at more boats and looked at more boats. I'm confident I know which type of boat we want. But we new we were not ready to buy then. Now that we are ready / able to buy, I just want to do it right. In five years I don't want to be saying to myself that I wish I had done something different. It's not a clear cut process.

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What was it*about the KK42 that*makes it the perfect boat for you and your wife?* What did she think when you were visiting the two boats?* Which of the two boats really spoke to you and more importantly your wife??

*