Gfi?

Greetings all,

** On a recent dad-gummed insurance survey, the surveyor said the coffee maker duplex recepticle beside the galley sink had to be GFI.* Couldn't find such a beast listed at WM or Defender.* Is one necessary and will a big box unit do?

** Thanks in advance...

Yes its a want and good idea , the*big box unit will be fine. Hope the surveyor pointed to the where in the system it should go.


-- Edited by Willy on Thursday 16th of February 2012 04:28:23 PM

I bought our GFI's at a bigbox store, and wired them in. I haven't had any problems whatsoever with them.

We have GFI outlets where it makes sense to have them. They are standard household units. Another thing that's very handy to have is an outlet tester. You know, that little thing you plug into an AC outlet and the lights tell you if the outlet is grounded and connected properly. Our insurance surveyor found that one of our AC outlets was not grounded at all. Having the little tester was a good way to determine that the fix I made was the right fix.

RT Firefly wrote:
Greetings all,

** On a recent dad-gummed insurance survey, the surveyor said the coffee maker duplex recepticle beside the galley sink had to be GFI.* Couldn't find such a beast listed at WM or Defender.* Is one necessary and will a big box unit do?

** Thanks in advance...

http://www.westmarine.com/webapp/wcs/stores/servlet/ProductDisplay?productId=93073&catalogId=10001&langId=-1&storeId=11151&storeNum=50523&subdeptNum=50524&classNum=50526

Click to expand...

*It's often called a "GFCI".* Ground Fault Circuit Interupter


-- Edited by rwidman on Thursday 16th of February 2012 09:04:24 PM

RT Firefly wrote:
Greetings all,

** On a recent dad-gummed insurance survey, the surveyor said the coffee maker duplex recepticle beside the galley sink had to be GFI.* Couldn't find such a beast listed at WM or Defender.* Is one necessary and will a big box unit do?

** Thanks in advance...

Click to expand...

*

It may be a little more expensive but you can use a Ground fault breaker feeding that circuit without having to change out the original receptacle(s).

Elwin*

Greetings,
Thanks all. I'll probably go with the box store variety. I just didn't want to instal a possible non marine item (cheaper) and have the fellow say "That's not according to AYBC standards." I had to bite my tongue on several occasions during the survey so as to not get into a "discussion" about the difference between suggestions and rules.**

** Mr. rwidman.* Ah, GFCI-Thanks.* *Mr. Elwin.* I am aware of the GFCI circuit breakers but I doubt I could find one that would neatly fit into my electrical panel and I'm also aware that replacing a duplex with a GFCI in any circuit protects ALL of that circuit.**


-- Edited by RT Firefly on Friday 17th of February 2012 04:07:33 AM

I would change the box and install a GFI , but keep the existing socket.

While a GFI is fine dockside , some do not like inverters , others dislike some noisemakers .

Senseless to be without power for a 75c box.

RT Firefly wrote:
* I'm also aware that replacing a duplex with a GFCI in any circuit protects ALL of that circuit. *

*

Click to expand...

Just keep in mind that the only thing a single duplex GFCI protects is anything plugged into that recepticle ( mainly people ) and the circuit downstream of that device if the outgoing wires are connected correctly. Anything upstream on that same circuit isn't protected. Not that it is necessary but it may be if there is water or wet surfaces close to those receptacles so people don't get zapped. Usually outside units in a house are connected together with a GFCI by installing a GFCI receptacle as the first one of the series. *

Ya, I was thinking that maybe finding a GFCI breaker would be hard to match older panelboards. Where they can, it saves a little work, however as mentioned a little more expensive.

Elwin*

*

Greetings,
Sorry Mr. FF, you lost me there. IF the existing box is large enough, why change it? Now you raise an interesting question in my mind... The location in question is on an outside bulkhead and I'm wondering if I even have the DEPTH to instal a GFCI (GFI) recepticle.
Hmmmm.....Currently there is a duplex recepticle on the side of the electrical panel that is seldom used and I have no idea which circuit it is connected to so I may be able to put a GFI in THAT location and tie it to the outlet in question thus providing protection. NO way I can go without my morning 3 gallons of coffee! Interesting information regarding compatability with inverters and gen.'s...Nothing's ever simple is it?

** Mr. Elwin, just saw your post (slow typing).** I was under the impression that a GFI anywhere in a circuit protected the WHOLE circuit.**Are you saying that the GFI has to be the FIRST outlet in the circuit from the breaker?


-- Edited by RT Firefly on Friday 17th of February 2012 07:56:32 AM

Yes, it protects nothing upstream and only downstream when it is connected correctly unless it is the first duplex. Elwin

Ocean Breeze NL wrote:
Yes, it protects nothing upstream and only downstream when it is connected correctly unless it is the first duplex. Elwin

Click to expand...

* * * ** Are you absolutely certain of this? I ask, because it changes my whole approach to a project I'm considering in my house.

Absolutely. The GFCI breaker protects the whole cct, the duplex will only protect the people that around that unit and only downstream if the following units are connected to that one on the downstream wires of that GFCI plug. Elwin

We periodically test all of the circuits on Hobo, including the GFCI's and regular outlets, with an Etcon model CT101 tester.* It cost around $20.00.**There are cheaper ones out there but this one*tests 120 VAC conventional and*GFCI outlets*for correct wiring, tests GFCI outlets to insure the trip mechanism*works at 5mA and tests GFCI outlets against lower false trips.* Over the last few years we have found 2 bad outlets and one of those we didn't know had failed.* It's an easy way to test all the outlets.

http://www.etcon.com/ct101.htm

When I wired my inverter I used box store GFCI outlets. I bought one of those testers to make sure everything was ok; when I tested the inverter outlets it trips the inverter into shutdown mode. Don't have a clue why, maybe the inverter doesnt like the GFCI's?

Mr. GC,
Hmmm....That's exactly what that tricky Mr. FF aluded to. I wonder if the WM units are prone to this as well? I do have other GFCI units on board but have never used them on inverter. I mean I've had the inverter in use, but never had occasion to plug anything into those outlets when inverted (smirk).
A call to all members reading this!!!!! What's Mr. GC's problem with the GFCI's when used with his inverter? Are there any marine electricians on board and am I going to have the same problems? It certainly is a hornswaggling situation dagnabbit! (OK, too many Gabby Hayes movies-you young lads, LOOK IT UP).
Mr. GC, do you have the same problem with the GFCI's tripping if you run the genny (a-la Mr. FF's comments)?

Michael do the receptacle trip or does the inverter just shutdown? Maybe the inverter sees enough drainage to the ground inside the plug that it things there is a short somewhere. You know what is interesting? If one were to plug a 200' extension cord into a GFIC and just lay it out with nothing attached, there is likely enough drainage*to trip the receptacle.

Elwin*

The GFCIs do not trip, just the inverter goes into some sort of whining noise which means to shut it down. I've run lots of stuff off the inverter, tv, sterio, vacuum,etc., no problem. Just that little 3 light tester sends it to the moon. The tester works fine on the 120 outlet when the boat is plugged into shore power. RT: No genny involved here.

So your inverter must be detecting the simulated ground produced by the tester.

Elwin*

Elwin:
If true, then why wouldn't the 120v outlet do the same w/ the tester? The tester should show that all the wires are where they should be, yes?

Because on a normal duplex there isn't any connection inside that type of device to make the tester check the hot to ground whereas in a GCFI there is a resistor inside the block that once the tester is inserted puts a connection from the hot to the ground through it to make sure it will trip. In other words; in a ordinary duplex the tester does verify the ground and neutral isn't open but there isn't any load placed between each. In a GCFI there is a circuit between the hot and ground provided by the tester.

Hope that helps some?

Elwin*

Yes, helps big time. I always swore to myself I'd never do electricity or brakes, here I am messing w/ electricity. Brakes, never. Many thanks.
Mike
Baton Rouge

Yes, reverse gear, 1500 rpm, stop on a dime.

Gulf Comanche wrote:
Yes, helps big time.

Click to expand...

Doesn't help me one iota.

Elwin: care to explain what a "simulated ground" is?

Sure RJ, lets say you plugged in a drill and the ground wire inside the casing is open but there is a strand of wire from the hot wire touching the casing and you pick it up, your hair just may stand on its end or if you have a weak heart, it could skip a beat and not make the next one. The GFCI is to protect almost instantaneously*that situation and trip. These units are placed around areas where there may be moisture or places that would increase the probability of getting a shock.*

Well some of these testers that are used to check out the GFCI, places an internal load inside the tester from hot to ground to ensure it will trip at 5ma. Basically the tester is simulating a ground detection.*

Elwin*

Gulf Comanche wrote:
*I always swore to myself I'd never do electricity or brakes,

Click to expand...

*Where would the *the 'Darwin Awards' be if everyone had that attitude?

So what you're saying Elwin is that the tester is designed to trip the GFCI?* I've never seen one like that but that doesn't mean they don't exist.* Any GFCI I've ever seen has that test function built right into the outlet.* Back to the OP though I don't see why that type of tester - if that's what he has - wouldn't just trip his GFCI.

Nope they check the function of the CGFI but causes a load to ground that would probably cause the inverter to sense it. Yes every CGFI duplex has a trip mechanism.

http://www.etcon.com/ct101.htm

Elwin

I'm not convinced.* If the inverter is sensing a drain to ground then it should see that load through a regular duplex exactly as it sees it through the GFCI.