Cell phones on Watch

I am surprised at the amount of people who mentioned boredom, although I have sometimes found the same problem on slow boats. A book on tape in one ear might do the trick, but I agree with Ragin Cajun that a crowded waterway at night is no place for additional distractions. In traffic,one is much less likely to get bored.

So I guess many of you guys pretty much disrespect the solo around the world sailors who actually go to bed and have a good nights sleep every 24 hours.

Crossing to the Bahamas, in the Far Bahamas, using the cell phone browser responsibly is NOT an issue. And for anyone who says it is - they haven't been here.

Have at it!

menzies said:

So I guess many of you guys pretty much disrespect the solo around the world sailors who actually go to bed and have a good nights sleep every 24 hours.

Have at it!

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I think most would tell you they rarely have a "good nights sleep" . The modern boats regularly do 400 nm days. The 24 hour record is over 500 nm. That's freaking fast. So they're napping regularly for an hour or two.

As I said earlier, I don't think that presents much of a risk to others.

I'd say the bigger question is about undertaking high-risk activities voluntarily and how much public effort may be involved in mounting a rescue operation. Lots of controversy there. Should we just ignore them when they get into trouble in the Southern Ocean?

Getting back to sleeping, I know of a few cases where solo sailors have hit land, but can't think of a case when they've done harm to another boat or person. So I have a hard time disrespecting that.

Solo cruisers are extremely responsible in my experience, slowing down or heaving to, and setting appropriate electronic guards and alarms. They are harmless to others.

Jeff F said:

Given what you've described, why not set your radar and AIS alarm on those pitch black nights and grab a nap? I mean that as a serious question. What additional risk does that introduce? If you have systems that you trust and you're in open water why not sit on the couch and read a book for half an hour at a time?

.

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Not everyone has AIS, most don't.
Not everything is picked up by radar.

Simi 60 said:

Not everyone has AIS, most don't.
Not everything is picked up by radar.

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Coastal cruising at night is hard. I hit a 20 something foot panga at about 4:15 one morning off of the Guatemalan coast with Hobo. Two guys sleeping in their boat, the nets were out and no lights. Radar didn’t help, I was switching between 3 and 6 miles plus I was awake. Nothing gets your attention quicker than two boats getting tangled up. I (we) got lucky with a glancing blow into the paravanes with no real damage to either boat. After a few “Todo bien(s)”, we continued south. I’d didn’t need anymore coffee on that watch.

That being said, when we crossed the Pacific, once we left the shipping lanes on the west coast, we saw 2 boats in 24 days. I used a kitchen timer at night set for 20 minutes to do a walk/look around and radar scan when on watch. I read a lot and didn’t worry or we never would have done the trip.

Like many things in life, what is appropriate for this time and place may not be for a different set of circumstances.
Hard and fast rules are generally for the inexperienced.

six point three knots works for me. occasionally increase to a maximum of 7.3 when needed. in my often-crowded waters, such speeds allow one to communicate by phone or radio in most situations. don't know how that works when one goes a lot faster.

markpierce said:

six point three knots works for me. occasionally increase to a maximum of 7.3 when needed. in my often-crowded waters, such speeds allow one to communicate by phone or radio in most situations. don't know how that works when one goes a lot faster.

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Wrong thread?

BruceK said:

Anyone who has been behind another car at traffic lights waiting for the driver to stop messaging or get off Farcebook after the lights go from red to green,knows there is a problem. Usually requires use of the horn.
Same goes for people head down screen watching, walking head on into other pedestrians.

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Two days ago I went aground after about a 30 second loss of attention. I think I was fiddling around with a plotter screen. I was in a channel and the 30 MPH wind drove me out of the channel. I tried to recover but it was too late. I spent five hours waiting for the tides to come in. Ultimately, I had to call Towboat US because every time I floated free the wind and current just drove me against the shoal again. It would have been impossible to get out without help.

Open water, very wide channels, I'm okay with diversions. Anything else, stay off the phone.

Tow boat?
Come to the rest of the world that doesn't have tow boat and your skills would have to improve markedly or wallet drained dry.

I'd imagine any sort of tow here would cost several thousands of dollars for a largish vessel if there was a boat anywhere nearby that could do it.

catalinajack said:

Two days ago I went aground after about a 30 second loss of attention. I think I was fiddling around with a plotter screen. I was in a channel and the 30 MPH wind drove me out of the channel. I tried to recover but it was too late. I spent five hours waiting for the tides to come in. Ultimately, I had to call Towboat US because every time I floated free the wind and current just drove me against the shoal again. It would have been impossible to get out without help.

Open water, very wide channels, I'm okay with diversions. Anything else, stay off the phone.

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You need to put out a kedge.

Simi 60 said:

Tow boat?
Come to the rest of the world that doesn't have tow boat and your skills would have to improve markedly or wallet drained dry.

I'd imagine any sort of tow here would cost several thousands of dollars for a largish vessel if there was a boat anywhere nearby that could do it.

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Simi, my skills are just fine. Unfortunately, for 30 seconds I neglected to use those skills and paid the price. The tow cost $1,879 but was covered by Boat US. Transiting the lowlands of Georgia on the Intracoastal Waterway requires paying attention 100% of the time except for a few sounds that are part of the route. For example, Hell Gate (Florida Passage) cannot be transited at low tide. And, yesterday on the radio I heard a sail boater relate that he, not paying attention as I didn't, ran aground and spent several hours lying at a 70 degree angle waiting for high tide. Even the skillful make mistakes. I surmise, though, from your comment that you haven't ever made a mistake that got you in some sort of trouble.

I believe chart plotters have become the largest distraction on the water over the past 15 years or so. They are a great tool when used appropriately but frequently cause the operator to spend too much time looking at the dash and not enough time looking outside of the boat.
It is also my opinion that boaters are less likely to give a wide berth to other boats when focusing on their electronic destination. In the past, a typical first boat was a 15'-20' runabout that could be towed behind the family wagon and new boaters cut their teeth in more protected waters and everyone was pretty conscious of their wakes as they had to negotiate wakes carefully themselves in relatively small and flatter bottom boats. Now even trailered boats are averaging significantly larger sizes with deeper v hulls and much more power and far more electronics. The boats have evolved in capability but the boaters are not keeping pace.

You here stories like this all the time. My mistakes included.


I lived it for 14 years as an assistance tower working what many long distance cruisers claim to be the worst stretch of ICW....the southern NJ ICW.


The truth is, it's almost 99.5% of the time, it is the crews fault for going aground or staying aground. Sure they all claim to be old salts....



My response was ...."what end of the towline are you on?"

Gdavid said:

It is also my opinion that boaters are less likely to give a wide berth to other boats when focusing on their electronic destination.

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I would agree with this. I know it is true in my case.

Gdavid said:

I believe chart plotters have become the largest distraction on the water over the past 15 years or so. They are a great tool when used appropriately but frequently cause the operator to spend too much time looking at the dash and not enough time looking outside of the boat.
It is also my opinion that boaters are less likely to give a wide berth to other boats when focusing on their electronic destination. In the past, a typical first boat was a 15'-20' runabout that could be towed behind the family wagon and new boaters cut their teeth in more protected waters and everyone was pretty conscious of their wakes as they had to negotiate wakes carefully themselves in relatively small and flatter bottom boats. Now even trailered boats are averaging significantly larger sizes with deeper v hulls and much more power and far more electronics. The boats have evolved in capability but the boaters are not keeping pace.

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Great post!

catalinajack;757845. said:

I surmise, though, from your comment that you haven't ever made a mistake that got you in some sort of trouble.

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I've made mistakes.
But as I said, if you are in a land or area where help is virtually zero, those mistakes need to be minor and almost non existent.

Groundings here on falling tides often end with boats on their sides and flooding as tide comes in.

It’s 3 hours for Christ’s sake. It’s for the safety of the boat, crew, and guests. Two eyes, two ears, and a mouth to use when theres trouble. That’s what watch is.

Floating tree/log/shipping container (you name it) you won’t see those until last minute and most of the time just barely above the water.

Let’s put it this way, you run over one of the items above, or even worse, hit a small fishing boat. What do you think the coast guard review board will do when the little SOBs you have given permission to look at thier phone will say??? They will say “Capt So And So said it was fine to use our phones on watch”

It will probably never happen to any of us (knock on wood) but if it does, your gonna get screwed and lose your livelihood

ksanders said:

When on watch I read books, or occasionally watch a movie on my ipad.

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twistedtree said:

I think it all depends on the situation, and calls for judgement.

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These folks have it right. The answer is "it all depends." I don't like rules very much. If I can't trust the judgment of crew they won't be crewing for me very long.



In pilotage when I'm on watch I may ask offwatch to take a conversation elsewhere as a distraction. 600 miles offshore I'm okay with books, movies, music, podcasts as long as it doesn't disturb sleeping offwatch. My crews understand the issues without "rules" because we discuss them ahead of time.



Is there a difference, really, between looking at the chartplotter or a nav app on your phone? Ultimately between checking radar on the boat and a weather radar app on the phone? Music on the boat radio and one ear bud from your phone (other than courtesy to the offwatch)?



I would worry more about a watchstander turning a "quick head call" into a career.

On a ship, which is normally going to be beyond cell range for the boring sea watches, obviously no cell use, ever, period, end of story.

Tugs in the ICW, same.

On my trawler, sure, to talk with eyes forward, but no activity requiring attention to the screen when not in congested waters.

Rarley if at all on the current boat with its 16-knot cruise, I will hand off the conn if I really need to talk or slow to a crawl since little can be heard above the roar of the Yanmar 315 HP anyway.

Out and out prohibition seems silly on a rec boat.

psneeld said:

My response was ...."what end of the towline are you on?"

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You REALLY said that to people you were getting paid to tow?

Ha, you will probably have more course corrections. Which equals more time and fuel. But if your going with friends, and not a working crew, good luck.
Waters pretty shallow in a lot areas. We always had 2 crew on duty 4 hours on. If they can’t pull 4 hrs then you don’t have a real crew. They usually pulled 2 hrs each. It was safety on our vessels.
We had a pair that opened a bottle of wine after everyone was sleeping, we encountered rough water which woke 3 of us up. They paid for tickets home. We were way off course. This was in the big deep on the way over.
Best

menzies said:

You REALLY said that to people you were getting paid to tow?

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Yep.



But take it the way I know you want to.


Most had a good laugh with me over the whole situation. The arrogant I am never wrong types maybe didn't laugh but after my explanation they knew who was the pro.


If you read too much into a post or only what you want...it's rarely the big picture.

Capt Richard A. said:

Ha, you will probably have more course corrections. Which equals more time and fuel. But if your going with friends, and not a working crew, good luck.
Waters pretty shallow in a lot areas. We always had 2 crew on duty 4 hours on. If they can’t pull 4 hrs then you don’t have a real crew. They usually pulled 2 hrs each. It was safety on our vessels.
We had a pair that opened a bottle of wine after everyone was sleeping, we encountered rough water which woke 3 of us up. They paid for tickets home. We were way off course. This was in the big deep on the way over.
Best

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Autopilot?

One thing, NO ONE can multitask. It's impossible and has been proven. ONE activity will get the attention and the other will not. So, when it's critical, I could argue to pay attention to what's most important.

Sure, you can bounce back and forth with some degree of success, but still ONE gets the attention. Now, you CAN keep an eye on things and talk, to your mate or one the phone. But could make a strong argument for a hands free devise and limit cell conversation to non busy times. Yes, there are many times where the cell is appropriate... checking on someone you can't radio, making a marina reservation (most of them don't respond to email), checking fuel availability, reprovisioning. However, if you're really doing a lot, I could argue to give the helm to someone else.

As for looking at chart plotters, I could argue to know your plotter well enough so that you just glance at it when needed. Set your course, route, etc., during non busy times.

And, yes, and autopilot is almost like another crew member.

Fortunately, there's a LOT of rather open spaces, even in the ICW, and even on rather busy days. So there are sometimes that you can be a bit less focused.

Drive a eight knot boat and talk on the phone.?


How about hover a helicopter, hoist a guy off a boat, talk to the crewman, home base, the boat and an airport control tower. Single piloted, in heavy boat traffic all at the same time.


I kinda thought that was multitasking.... It was done most every day for years by many. Proper training makes the difference....


..so how much training does it take to drive an 8 knot boat on autopilot to ensure a proper scan? In my world not much, just discipline which people have or don't.

psneeld said:

Drive a eight knot boat and talk on the phone.?


How about hover a helicopter, hoist a guy off a boat, talk to the crewman, home base, the boat and an airport control tower. Single piloted, in heavy boat traffic all at the same time.


I kinda thought that was multitasking.... It was done most every day for years by many. Proper training makes the difference....


..so how much training does it take to drive an 8 knot boat on autopilot to ensure a proper scan? In my world not much, just discipline which people have or don't.

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Paul,

Bet that was a hoot, and yes multitasking to a degree. However, you're focused on only one thing at a time, most likely getting that guy off the boat. When it really gets critical, perhaps maneuvering the helicopter to get the guy, your concentration increases and you'd probably ignore the tower or your crewman if they said anything not related to the task, like asked you what's for dinner tonight.

It's sure possible to do more than one thing at a time, things requiring multiple skills, manual skills, communication, etc. Especially if we've practiced it. When you get two things that require one sense, like driving and texting, it doesn't work for anyone. Much easier to drive and talk on speaker phone.

psneeld said:

In my world....

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Well, given many of your past contributions I'd question that 'world view'. Perhaps it's not one shared by everyone.

As for multi-tasking, it's one thing to be having a verbal conversation, be it in person or over the radio/phone. That generally seems less prone to drawing attention away from operating a vehicle.

But anything that requires reading/looking at a screen... that's a bad plan when at the helm/wheel. I'm sure there's studies out there that cover this but it's been my experience that what seems like 'just a second' to look at anything is more like 10 or 15 (and that's being kind). Depending on your conditions, looking away from your piloting responsibilities could cause serious problems. Open ocean is certainly more forgiving than being in a channel. Day vs night, etc. But it's probably a good plan not to get used to any distractions, lest it build a false sense of confidence.

ksanders said:

Geez!! Such seriousness!

When on watch I read books, or occasionally watch a movie on my ipad. Often times I am visiting one of the several great forums I frequent.

At 8 knots you will flat die of boredom if all you do is stare at the ocean and your nav system.

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Keeping watch is much like a classroom, bored students are not more attentive, but less so.

On the ICW, you're engaged, as it's hard to do anything but watch and steer.
Off shore, it becomes somewhat boring, and as Kevin pointed out, I read and watch movies or K-dramas.
Crossing oceans is all about staying interested for three weeks.

Sorry guys, again in my world (job) of studying accidents and prevention suggest it is possible to be doing multiple things. Whether one task gets 100% or not is only important if it NEEDS 100% attention.


Some people's 100% is another's 25%..so multitasking to the minimum required is possible...now define the minimum required.